Jesus Led me to Islam

What I have a problem with is that Christians claim two things at the same time. First, they say that Jesus didn’t come to change the Law (which he himself states), but then when we take the different regulations that were imposed by God to the Jews, they say that those are outdated. Do you believe that the Bible (the whole Bible) is God’s word or not? If it is, then you must accept ALL of it, not just parts that agree with the ever changing society norms that we live by. God’s word should be timeless and God’s commandments as well. His regulations and laws should not be changed as time goes by, and adapted to whatever the society requires from it. That is where the problem arises. Christians claim that the holy Qur’an is violent, that it oppresses women, that it teaches hatred, and so on, but when you read the Old Testament, you will find verses that are far more violent, verses that are far more oppressive to women. Don’t you think that it is ironic that you condemn us for following EVERYTHING that is in our Holy Book, and at the same time believe that you are better because you have chosen not to follow those commandments that God has imposed on human beings? Muslims believe that the whole Qur’an, each letter of it, is the Word of God, and that none of it can be changed or adapted to fit whatever seems modern at a point in time in a certain society. God’s word is timeless, it cannot be changed nor adapted, nor can it be ignored. \

”The most brutal way of putting it is that Christians accept as much of the Old Testament as seems useful or relevant, and, for practical purposes, ignore the rest. For most Christians, the Old Testament is accepted only in the light of the New. Most of Christian teaching is grounded in the ideas and mythology of the Old Testament, and can most easily be explained in those terms.”

Here is the most important difference between Muslims and Christians, because we do not dare to change God’s word, nor do we believe that human beings are able to pick and choose which law or requirement they will follow and which they will not be accept. Where are you instructed to do so? Did Jesus say that some laws and regulations seize to be valid with his coming? Did he instruct his followers to abandon certain practices from the Old Testament? I am not sure if you are aware how dangerous it is to modify God’s word and how humans can go astray by doing so. Society norms change constantly, that which is unacceptable at one point will become acceptable some other time, or in some other culture, and if you allow God’s word to follow this trend, then you have allowed it to become a mockery; something that can go either way. I believe that precisely because of this tendency, Christians have come across problems where certain groups such as homosexuals believe that they can interpret the Bible to fit and justify their lifestyle. (I.e. gay marriages and priests who actually allow this) Where is the limit? What if it becomes trendy that (here I have trouble finding something that has not already been somehow accepted and justified by one or the other Christian group)…but, my point is that you cannot keep adapting God’s word to whatever the society decides to follow and accept as normal. God is above that, and his Word and commandments are above that as well.
Also, I have never heard that Jesus’ verse about him not coming to change the Law is only to be applied to the 10 commandments. Have you any proof for this statement?

”God as i said before, had treated His very first people like we do babies (we do it the hard way first; like when a child wants to touch the hot cup of tea, we keep on telling them 'NO!! it is hot', but the kid doent have any idea what hot is, the kid ends up touching the cup, getting a little burnt and then never again does he touch it).. You kow what i mean?i dont know if you get it..tell me..”

Jews were not the first people on Earth, nor the first people God created, nor was Moses the first Prophet. So, your theory that God included those commandments/laws/regulations because He thought those people primitive is not valid, since there were many prophets before Moses who would have taught the people how to behave, if they needed it. \


P.S I do not mean to offend anyone, and if my tone indicates otherwise, I apologize...

"How is circumcision spiritual? If you circumcise your child then that means that you believe in God? Circumcision was more of a traditional thing rather than a spiritual thing, or atleast that is how I percieve it. As Whifflingpin said, it is just like the animal sacrifice, it is not necesary certainly not in our days anymore."

I did not claim that it was spiritual. It is not for us to decide why God commanded certain things, and whether or not they are spiritual or merely a matter of practice/ritual. The point is that we should accept God's word for what it is, not for what we want it to be, or what we think it should be. As muslims, we say that we hear and submit. That is the ultimate proof of faith.
If you would try to categorize and prioritize all the commandments, what criteria would you use? Don't you think that someone else might use a different criteria? If everyone would be able to sit down and decide what commendments God thinks most important, and which ones are less important, how many different interpretations would you have? That would lead to total chaos. So, if you believe Jesus to be your God, then you should use his teachings and regulations fully, and follow what he said, and if he didn't state that you should abandon certain practices, then who gives you the right to do so? Why do you put priests above the word of God?

Amra said "If you would try to categorize and prioritize all the commandments, what criteria would you use? Don't you think that someone else might use a different criteria?"

Exactly so. Jannah said "Muslims believe in the Bible and the Torah" I assume that Jannah is a Moslem, and that you are too, and that Jannah is correct in saying that Moslems accept the Torah as God's words. However, Muslims also pick and choose want they want from the Torah.

For example:
"Remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy." I do not think that Moslems follow the Jewish rules concerning the last day of the week.
"An altar of earth thou shalt make unto me, and shalt sacrifice theron thy burnt offerings." I have been in a number of mosques, but not seen any altars of earth in them, nor, if they were hidden away, have I smelt the smell of burnt offerings that would surely have remained. I do not think that even the Jews have altars for burnt offerings in their holy places.
There is a rule (Exodus XXI) that says you may hold a Hebrew slave for six years, but then on the seventh let him go. If he wants to stay, then you may keep him, but you must make a hole in his ear. Do Muslims still practice this rule?
Do Moslem priests wear two onyx stones, with the names of the tribes of Israel enscribed on them?
Would you, Amra, stone a man to death for picking up sticks on a Saturday?
Do Moslems accept the statement, repeated time and time again, that the land of Israel was given by God to the descendants of Israel for ever?

Clearly, rules contained in the Torah are of different kinds. Whole chapters describe rituals that are no longer followed by anyone. Many of the rules relate to physical hygiene suitable for nomadic tribes. Many of the rules govern relationships between people.

Unlike the Quraan, the Bible was written by a great variety of people over hundreds of years. Much that is in it is not, in my view, the word of God. You may throw up your hands in horror at my impiety, but I do not think that God and his Word can be contained in any book.

Even the words, or actions, ascribed to Jesus in the New Testament may not be exactly accurate. For Christians this does not matter, because Jesus is not to them just another prophet, or a teacher. He is not one to whom God's truth is revealed. To Christians, he is God's truth revealed. He is not the messenger, but the Message.
If you are a Moslem, you will be able to understand that, and may recoil at the blasphemy of it. What is hard to convey is the sense that the knowledge of God's love, revealed through the Resurrection, makes books, laws, rituals and all into something that is, after all, trivial.

Quote:

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"Unlike the Quraan, the Bible was written by a great variety of people over hundreds of years. Much that is in it is not, in my view, the word of God. You may throw up your hands in horror at my impiety, but I do not think that God and his Word can be contained in any book."

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May i ask why do you think so?

"Exactly so. Jannah said "Muslims believe in the Bible and the Torah" I assume that Jannah is a Moslem, and that you are too, and that Jannah is correct in saying that Moslems accept the Torah as God's words. However, Muslims also pick and choose want they want from the Torah."

You are mistaken. Muslims do not accept the Torah and the Bible, as we know it today, as God's word. We believe that Moses and Jesus (peace be upon them) were Prophets who came with God's word and came with His message, but that their original teachings were corrupted. Muslims believe that the original Torah and Indzil (Bible) are not available to us anymore in their true form. God has sent many Prophets to human kind and all came with the same message; to submit and believe in only One God. However, over time those revelations were changed, adapted, corrupted and lost. Because of that, God s.v.t sent his last Prophet Mohammed a.s with the holy Qur'an as the last revelation to human kind(and promised that it will be saved from any changes until the Judgment Day), and only the Qur'an is accepted by muslims as the true word of God. However, some parts of the Qur'an agree with todays Bible and Torah because some parts of God's teachings have still been saved from corruption and change. Muslims only accept what is in the Qur'an, and if that agrees with the Bible or the Torah, then that is fine, if not, than that is not accepted as it is believed to have been changed by human beings over the history of time. I hope this clears up the confusion.

"Unlike the Quraan, the Bible was written by a great variety of people over hundreds of years. Much that is in it is not, in my view, the word of God. You may throw up your hands in horror at my impiety, but I do not think that God and his Word can be contained in any book."

Forgive me for saying so, but if I believed that the Word of God has been corrupted somehow, and that my holy Book has been written by different people where it is impossible to differentiate which is God's word and which people's, I would seriously consider the validity of that which I believe in altogether.

"May i ask why do you think so?"

Why do I think the Bible was written by many people? Even if I ignored what scholars tell about linguistic styles, use of names such Elohim and Yhwh, etc., many of the writers give their names at the start of the books.

Why do I think that much is not the word of God? Because there are contradictions within it; because some of it disagrees with what I "know" to be true.

Why do I think that God cannot be contained in any book? We can only understand what is in this world, but God is not contained in this world so nothing meant for our understanding could describe Him fully.

I do not believe that even humans can be contained in any book, so how could God? If you read a biography of someone, the best that you can get is what the author could comprehend about that person. Even autobiographies cannot tell the whole truth. The argument in Christian belief is that Jesus is still alive, and can be known in the way that we can know other people with whom we have contact, that is directly through a personal relationship. A book may give us insight or understanding, but it is not equal to or a replacement for the personal relationship. Similarly, a deep relationship with a person entitles you to say that something written in a book about that person is only partial truth, or a view of the truth, or even an untruth.

A religion limited to a set of writings seems to me a futile sterile thing. Amra rejects the idea that God's will may be interpreted differently by different people and in different ages. I think that if you put together every human's knowledge of God in every age you would still scarcely have begun to understand Him.

Here is the verse from the Qur'an that substantiates what I have been saying previously:

15-9 15:9 We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption).

15:10 We did send apostles before thee amongst the religious sects of old:

15:11 But never came an apostle to them but they mocked him.

Well Amra you say that the Quran was dictated word for word, letter for letter by the Angel Gabriel sent from God (That is what Muslims beleive in). Do you also know that the Quran is written and saved with God above (in Arabic, in a loh mahfouz); The Quran as a book. You say its unchanging till judgement day "and promised that it will be saved from any changes until the Judgment Day" so you said. But i'm sure since you're a muslim, you also know that there is such thing as "The Abrogator and Abrogated Quranic verses", whereby God changes the verse (invalidates it) in one of three ways:
1) invalidates a law as a practice but keeps it written in the Book to be recited.
2) Invalidates a law and removes it from the Book after it has been sent down to Mohamed (pbuh)
3) Removes a law from the Book but keeps it as a practice (the provisions are retained but recitation is not)
In chapter 2:106 God says:
"such of our revelation as we abrogate or cause to be forgotten, we bring one better or the like thereof."
God changing his mind like we humans do?God want to find something better to say even though He is perfection itself?And if we say that circustances changed and that God wanted to change His ordinances as time and circumstances do, doesnt that negate the fact that God Allmighty knows the future (Al Ghayb) and that His words should then be "timeless" that you put it sevel times?
ANd finanlly what is then exactly written in the copy of the Quran above God (the Loh Mahfouz)?

"such of our revelation as we abrogate or cause to be forgotten, we bring or the like thereof.""

I guess you take your references from the (in)famous answering islam site? :D

The verse goes like this:

105. It is never the wish of those without Faith among the People of the Book, nor of the Pagans, that anything good should come down to you from your Lord. But Allah will choose for His special Mercy whom He will - for Allah is Lord of grace abounding.

106. None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?

107. Knowest thou not that to Allah belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth? And besides Him ye have neither patron nor helper.

This clearly states that the verses are all in the Qur'an and nothing has been omitted in any way. I have never heard of the Abrogated Quranic verse, but I guess that is one of the inventions of the answering islam site. :D Some of the regulations in the Qur'an came step by step. The revelation lasted 23 years altogether, and Prophet Mohammed a.s had to teach the Qur'an to the people, to show them how to practice Islam fully, and to make them understand why the regulations are good for them. Before Islam, the pagan societies used to practice many horrible things, they were very oppresive to women not even granting them the basic rights and treating them as animals. The promiscuity dominated the society and people used to drink excessively. Because of that, God revealed some regulations gradually. For example, the prohibition not to drink alcohol came in three stages. First, the verse revealed was: "And from the fruits of date-palm and grapes you derive sakaraa(intoxicating liquor) as well as wholesome sustenance. LO! Therein is indeed a sign for people who have wisdom." (Q16:67)
he second verse was then revealed: "They ask you (O Muhammad) about khamr (alcoholic drink) and gambling. Say: ‘In them is a great sin, and some benefit for men, but the sin is greater than the benefit.’…" (Q2:219)
The pious Muslims started staying away from khamr but because it was not banned the majority of Muslims still continued to drink it. The third order came when one of the companions made salaah while intoxicated making serious mistakes in reciting Quran: "O you who believe! Do not approach salaah when you are drunk until know what you say…" (Q4:43)
The last verse was: "O you who believe! Khamr (alcoholic drinks), gambling, al-ansaab (stones set up as altars or idols) and al-azlaam (arrows for seeking luck) are loathsome evils of Shaytan’s work. So avoid them in order that you may be successful. Shaytan only wants to excite enmity and hatred between you with khamr (alcoholic drinks) and gambling, and hinder you from the remembrance of Allah and from salaah. Will you not then abstain?" (Q5:90-1)

So, this shows what the verse: "None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things." means. It doesn't mean that God chaned His mind or omitted certain verse, but only that certain regulations came in stages, as was needed and as the message was revealed. The Qur'an is the Word of God dictated by angel Gabriel to Mohammed a.s. It was memorized by his companions and then written down. All of the verses revealed are in the Qur'an, and they are all believed to be the true word of God.

Now the reason why Muslims say that the current versions of te Bible and Torah are "corrupted" was not something thought of before this verse was sent down:
[4:46] Of the Jews there are those who displace words from their (right) places..."
[2:75] "Seeing that a party of them heard the Word of Allah, and perverted it knowingly after they understood it..."
I suppose these are the verses you're talking about when you say "corruption".

But these replaced (were abrogators for) verses like:
[5:43]"But why do they come to thee for decision, when they have (their own) Law before them?..." God said that to Mohamed pbuh when Jews came up to him asking him about laws.
and many more examples 5:43-48 and 40:54

About the way Muslims should treat Christians and Jews.
[2:62] "Those who believe (in the Qur-an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians, any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. "
These were replaced by:
3:85 "If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost (all spiritual good)..."

Also:
[2:256] "Let there be no compulsion in religion..."
[3:20] So if they dispute with thee, say: "I have submitted my whole self to Allah and so have those who follow me." And say to the People of the Book and to those who are unlearned: "Do ye (also) submit yourselves?" If they do, they are in right guidance, but if they turn back, thy duty is to convey the Message;
But we find it replaced with:
"They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): so take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (from what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them.."

Some people call that contradictions, But this is just becasue of the Abrogator and Abrogatedverses. Is this how God changes His mind??Is not God far sighted enough to let people know in advance not to read the Bible and Torah, i mean we see in the verses mentioned above that God tells Mohamed that the Jews should go back to their books. Why did God then gavethe chance for people to go astray; people such as myself. Clear that up please Amra..
Peace..

Hey relax why do you keep on mentioning "the answering islam site", i guess you're very much into it..No, i'm not really into biased websites like these..As i'm an Arabic speaking person, so i read the old Muslim scholars and contemporary ones as well books, "The Abrogator and Abrogated" for al Wahedi is one of the many books discussing that very subject. Al-Suyuti another vert well known Muslim scholar. We have nice librarues in Egypt and I can access all kinds of old books and seriously i don't think its wise you reading the stuff in the "infamous" website (islam online or whatever its called)...So you may also check the Zamakh-shari's "Al-Khash-shaf"..
Keep it up!!

"But these replaced (were abrogators for) verses like:
[5:43]"But why do they come to thee for decision, when they have (their own) Law before them?..." God said that to Mohamed pbuh when Jews came up to him asking him about laws.
and many more examples 5:43-48 and 40:54"

Here is the full text so that you can see the verses in the context they were revealed in.

43. But why do they come to thee for decision, when they have (their own) law before them?- therein is the (plain) command of Allah. yet even after that, they would turn away. For they are not (really) People of Faith.

44. It was We who revealed the law (to Moses): therein was guidance and light. By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the prophets who bowed (as in Islam) to Allah.s will, by the rabbis and the doctors of law: for to them was entrusted the protection of Allah.s book, and they were witnesses thereto: therefore fear not men, but fear me, and sell not my signs for a miserable price. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) Unbelievers.

45. We ordained therein for them: "Life for life, eye for eye, nose or nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal." But if any one remits the retaliation by way of charity, it is an act of atonement for himself. And if any fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (No better than) wrong-doers.

46. And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah.

47. Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.

48. To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah. it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute;

These verses are very clear and beautifully explain what I have been trying to prove here. Namely, Allah s.v.t says in these verses that He has revealed the Torah to Moses and the Gospel to Jesus, but that the Jews and Christians have diverted from those truths, and chose not to be guided by them. He calls upon them to go back to their original books and judge by them, not by their desires. Why have they gone astray? Why have they abandoned the Word that was given to them? That is basically what God is asking in these verses. He is asking Jews and Christinas to go back to their original books, to the original revelation (which is the belief in one God and the full submissioin to Him) and judge and be judged by those laws. Because they have corrupted their books, and no one knows what the originals are, the only thing they can do is accept Islam, because Islam is the one and only revelation God has sent to all of His prophets. The same religon that was revealed to Jews and to Christians. Why did Jews refuse to accept Jesus when they knew there would be another Prophet? Why did Christians make Jesus God when he never claimed that of himself? As far as I know, early Christians didn't think of Jesus as God, but as a Prophet, then he evolved to be the Son of God, and then God himself. Here we can see how people went astray when they started changing God's word.

"About the way Muslims should treat Christians and Jews.
[2:62] "Those who believe (in the Qur-an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians, any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. "
These were replaced by:
3:85 "If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost (all spiritual good)..." "

I don't know how you see any contradictions in these or why you think that the first verses were replaced? In both verses it says that jews and Christians should follow Islam and submit to God, because Islam is the only religion. When it says those who follow the Jewish scripture (Torah), it doesn't mean today's Torah that is corrupted, but the original Law that was revealed to Moses. Also, it refers to those Jews who did follow the original Law Moses came with. For them Allah s.v.t says that they were on the right path and that they should not fear. However, after Qur'an was revealed as the only accepted religion by God, no other religion will be accepted, because they are considered corruped and not from God.

"Also:
[2:256] "Let there be no compulsion in religion..."
[3:20] So if they dispute with thee, say: "I have submitted my whole self to Allah and so have those who follow me." And say to the People of the Book and to those who are unlearned: "Do ye (also) submit yourselves?" If they do, they are in right guidance, but if they turn back, thy duty is to convey the Message;
But we find it replaced with:
"They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): so take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (from what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them..""

Here you take verses out of context, because the first two verses refer to the times of peace, when muslims are not being attacked, oppresed or in war with any nation. For those nations that live in peace with muslims, God states how we should treat their people. The last verse you cite refers to the time of the war. Here is the context in which the verse is revealed:

89. They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks

90. Except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty (of peace), or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. If Allah had pleased, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: Therefore if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you (Guarantees of) peace, then Allah Hath opened no way for you (to war against them).

91. Others you will find that wish to gain your confidence as well as that of their people: Every time they are sent back to temptation, they succumb thereto: if they withdraw not from you nor give you (guarantees) of peace besides restraining their hands, seize them and slay them wherever ye get them: In their case We have provided you with a clear argument against them.


It clearly shows that the verse referred to times of war when a nation is fighting muslims. When that happens, Allah s.v.t tells us to accept a treaty it if is offered, and if not, then it is allowed to fight. So, there is no contradiction nor abrogated verses :D ; you simply took the verses out of context.