January/Hemingway Book: 'A Farewell to Arms'

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Virgil

The loss of innocence. A farewell to arms: the arms of war and arms of love.

---

Have you ever thought about the difficulty of translating this title? Like Virgil pointed out, it could mean two things but it is almost impossible to find the same convenient words which would mean the same things in other languages... I know one translation which made use of 'farewell to arms=weapons'... not 'arms of a beloved'

Just a side note. :)

As I spend more time thinking about this book, the more I am inclined to believe that Hemingway must have had an agenda portraying these characters and 'love' as he did.

We all agree that there is some kind of supercificiality about the whole thing but maybe that is how it is supposed to be? Maybe the book did not aim to analyse characters and the theme of love but show the absurdity of it all. People fall in love and call each other 'darling' or simply lust and try to 'score' or pretend to be Italian even though they are American to build a career in music or win medals while trying to have pasta with cheese!

I am wondering if this book is actually about absurdity of life rather than merely war or love or whatever else.

That's a good point, Scher. Hmm... entirely possible.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Scheherazade

Have you ever thought about the difficulty of translating this title? Like Virgil pointed out, it could mean two things but it is almost impossible to find the same convenient words which would mean the same things in other languages... I know one translation which made use of 'farewell to arms=weapons'... not 'arms of a beloved'

Just a side note. :)

As I spend more time thinking about this book, the more I am inclined to believe that Hemingway must have had an agenda portraying these characters and 'love' as he did.

We all agree that there is some kind of supercificiality about the whole thing but maybe that is how it is supposed to be? Maybe the book did not aim to analyse characters and the theme of love but show the absurdity of it all. People fall in love and call each other 'darling' or simply lust and try to 'score' or pretend to be Italian even though they are American to build a career in music or win medals while trying to have pasta with cheese!

I am wondering if this book is actually about absurdity of life rather than merely war or love or whatever else.

---

Some of the things that were probably going through hemingway's mind as he constructed the novel:
Tolstoy's War and Peace where Tolstoy alternates sections of his novel between love and war.
Virgil's, The Aneaid where themes of war and love, while they don't alternate like Tolstoy, recurr. I think the first line of it goes something like, "Of arms and the man I sing."
And someone, somewhere I can't recall who said that the great, universal themes in literature are love and death. And I would add also loss of innocence. Hem does all three here.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Scheherazade

We all agree that there is some kind of supercificiality about the whole thing but maybe that is how it is supposed to be? Maybe the book did not aim to analyse characters and the theme of love but show the absurdity of it all. People fall in love and call each other 'darling' or simply lust and try to 'score' or pretend to be Italian even though they are American to build a career in music or win medals while trying to have pasta with cheese!

---

I just finished the book and that's the impression I get. Life during war is different, it's as if Cat and Henry are trying hard, perhaps too hard, to act as if life is normal when it is not. It almost seems to me that, they talk about life being grand and that they love each other as if they're trying to convince themselves. It leads me to wonder if Cat and Henry would have stayed together if it hadn't been war time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by papayahed

It leads me to wonder if Cat and Henry would have stayed together if it hadn't been war time.

---

I wondered the same thing too, Papaya along with if they would have kept in touch if Cat hadn't appointed to the hospital where Henry was staying...

... or gotten knocked up ...

Well, I'm apt to agree with the general consensus, Cat was an awful character, the romance was forced, not very realistic for whatever reason, war, Hemmingway's intent who knows? The story really couldn't be put in any particular category on my bookshelf other than war perhaps. The romance was peculiar, more like a 1940's movie, lukewarm and unrealistic.

I felt the two main characters were annoying. I actually liked Frederic well enough up until the part where he called Othello the N word. Very racist. Very stupid and selfish man in my opinion. Good grief, he knew she'd get pregnant if he didn't take responsibility, which he didn't. How selfish was that, leaving it all up to her? Annoying pointless book with a bad ending. I had to wonder if Hemmingway was racist after reading this and I hope I never have to read another Hemmingway book again.

Darlin, I know what you mean about the racism. I get very uncomfortable when I encounter racism in old books. Even in not-as-old books, like The Bell Jar; I just read it, and at one point Plath introduces a kind of Stepin Fetchit character, who I can only assume was added for comic relief, but it made me very unhappy. I just try to tell myself that people were more ignorant of such things back then, and that it was more accepted by society, so they probably didn't even notice they were doing it. But I know what you mean; nothing spoils the mood of a book for me quite so much as negative attitudes toward race.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Darlin

I had to wonder if Hemmingway was racist after reading this and I hope I never have to read another Hemmingway book again.

---

May I ask why you had to wonder? Is Hemingway to be universally condemned for using a word which at the time had very little of the power to offend it has now? Is Joseph Conrad to be considered a poor writer and a worse human being for having written The Nigger of the Narcissus? Should we simply not read that book any more? Is it right to judge past attitudes by today’s standards?

If you would like to join us for the Arms live chat, please contact me asap.

Thanks! :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by emily655321

Darlin, I know what you mean about the racism. I get very uncomfortable when I encounter racism in old books. Even in not-as-old books, like The Bell Jar; I just read it, and at one point Plath introduces a kind of Stepin Fetchit character, who I can only assume was added for comic relief, but it made me very unhappy. I just try to tell myself that people were more ignorant of such things back then, and that it was more accepted by society, so they probably didn't even notice they were doing it. But I know what you mean; nothing spoils the mood of a book for me quite so much as negative attitudes toward race.

---

I don't know if Hemingway was a racist. But he was inconsiderate in the way he threw epithets around. This is not the only place he uses the N-word. Hemingway was such a big admirer of Twains Huck Finn that sometimes when he uses the N word I get the feeling he's trying to emulate Twain. I don't know. But Twain's Nigger Jim was an endearing character, I don't get the feeling that hemingway is using it endearingly, if that's possible. Worst then the N-word, hemingway really slanders Jews in The Sun Also Rises. I wouldn't go as far as say he's anti-semitic, but he just spits these words out callusly. I've said somewhere in a different post that I ususally ignore (unless they are advocating slavery or genicide) these things if the writer was writing before WWII. After the halocaust there is no excuse for a writer to disparage ethnicity.

As to the Nigger of the Narcissus: Again I don't feel that Conrad is disparging. From what I remember, the black character that the novel refers to was noble or intended to be noble. I don't think Hemingway was being positive in any way.

Emily, thank you. I’m glad it’s not just me. I thought maybe I over reacted but it was truly offensive to me and gave me a poor impression of the author in general. However, you’re probably right in that it was the accepted norm of that day and they probably thought nothing of it and possibly Hemmingway wasn’t racist. One never knows I suppose and as I’m disinclined to read a biography on the man I suppose I shall never know. But thanks for your thoughts, I rather felt I might be alone in this. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by emily655321

Darlin, I know what you mean about the racism. I get very uncomfortable when I encounter racism in old books. Even in not-as-old books, like The Bell Jar; I just read it, and at one point Plath introduces a kind of Stepin Fetchit character, who I can only assume was added for comic relief, but it made me very unhappy. I just try to tell myself that people were more ignorant of such things back then, and that it was more accepted by society, so they probably didn't even notice they were doing it. But I know what you mean; nothing spoils the mood of a book for me quite so much as negative attitudes toward race.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by The Unnamable

May I ask why you had to wonder? Is Hemingway to be universally condemned for using a word which at the time had very little of the power to offend it has now? Is Joseph Conrad to be considered a poor writer and a worse human being for having written The Nigger of the Narcissus? Should we simply not read that book any more? Is it right to judge past attitudes by today’s standards?

---

Unnamable, I wondered because I hate that word. I hate being called that and dislike those who use it regardless of why they choose to use it. And for you or anyone to say the word had little power to offend at the time he used it is absolutely uninformed and completely wrong. Those who used it may have felt it had no power but those that the word was inflicted upon felt the pain of the word quite intently.

I may have not been around during that time for I was born in the sixty’s but I have grandparents, family members and acquaintances even to this day that remember those times, the racist attitudes, the fear they felt, the degradation and helplessness. Twice I have been called that and each time by a White male and once when I was with my bi-racial daughter who was probably about eight at the time. I will not go into how humiliating and painful that was. Suffice it to say unless you have experienced being called that you really have no right to judge.

It is a hurtful and disgraceful word. It wasn’t acceptable or any nicer when he was using it in his day than it is now. People may want to use the word today to try to lessen the impact of the hate and pain they feel when called such a thing but it still hurts many and most especially older people from Hemmingway’s day. Whether he was a racist or not he used a hurtful ignorant word that has offended me and discouraged any further interest in reading any of his other books but that is a purely personal decision on my part.

And speaking of Conrad’s The Nigger of the Narcissus I was just looking at that at the library last week wondering what it was about and why anyone would write something with a title like that. Having not read the book I certainly can’t say he was a racist, a poor writer or a worse human being for writing it. For all I know it may be an incredibly enlightening book however the title alone has done nothing to entice me into reading it and it is unlikely I ever will. If it’s the greatest novel ever written then that might be my loss but that again is a purely personal decision on my part.

As I mentioned before, perhaps if you were a person of color who has been called the N word you might also find things like this unacceptable, pathetic and frustrating. And as Virgil mentioned, Hemmingway’s use of the word is nothing like Twain’s in Huckleberry Finn which I actually enjoyed. There is no equivalent word that people of color could call a White person, nothing so humiliating or disgusting, but thankfully I’ve no desire to have a word that would compare. I hope this has satisfied your curiosity.

Darlin
I sympathize. While I've been called names, I can't quite know how you feel, since there is no one word such as the n word that could be thrown at me. On another thread I was criticized for rebuking someone who (while I don't think in his heart he is racist) came close in a poem. Here's how someone else replied to me:

Quote:

---

The important thing is, it's well written and holds the interest. When will people read the poem as a poem first, rather than looking for non-PC references?

---

I won't mention any names, but your post above here indicates why decency and manners are more important than how great a work of literature something is. Literature could go to hell if it's going to hurt someone. And besides, works of literature that intend to tear somebody down can never be great works.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Darlin

And for you or anyone to say the word had little power to offend at the time he used it is absolutely uninformed and completely wrong.

---

Here’s what I actually wrote:
“a word which at the time had very little of the power to offend it has now?”

If you can’t even read what I wrote with any degree of accuracy, I guess there is no point in my wasting any more time.

Virgil, the idea that Hemingway or anyone else has to be inoffensive by your standards to be worthy of being called ‘great’ is simply ludicrous.