...u r so exquisitely witty :goof: ... your humor is so subtle ...i better step back...Quote:
Originally Posted by Satirical
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...u r so exquisitely witty :goof: ... your humor is so subtle ...i better step back...Quote:
Originally Posted by Satirical
Now I shouldn't step into someone else's discussion (but since when I do things I should do) but I really see no point in arguing cos noone is really trying to convince anyone, but of course noone will understand the other's point completely. I also sort of feel uncomfortable about believers always going on about how good it is to believe and implying between lines (and I think that they don't always realise it) that we are missing something, but that's also part of my present feeling of total refuse of anything that has to do with any kind of religious believe... So I probably also sound 'arrogant' at times cos we unbelievers also have that kind of way... But that doesnt mean that we are trying to convince each other cos we all (should) know that it's impossible, even if there are people who still try (that is, my grandmother...).
As are you, we step back together.
I heard it was the soma
Then heard it was the soul
St. Paul was driving lonely home
But forgot to pay the toll
Greekarious son Plotinus
Help him lay down the funds
It emminated from his pocket
Or from Spinoza's ONE
Matters not says Augustine
The Roman's made of better things
Forget the tale the lot of ya
While we take out Apocrapha
hello everyone,
this is my 1st visit here to the forum, it was coz of that topic(& what a topic!!!). I'm a Muslim girl (but not a terrorist ;) ) & i got a dear friend who is atheist. i got no problem with that except for a few points..
i once asked him ,don't u ever ever feel u might b on the wrong side?!! what if it turned out that ur "theory" about the world was wrong? u'd b the only one who pays 4 it..& that hurts, big time!
secondly, that friend is one of the most depressive nihilistic persons i've ever known in my whole life..is everyone,atheist one, feels the same? if so, then there must b sth wrong, definitely..
well, i didn't mean t b intruding or not friendly at all, these were just my ideas n "wonders" about the topic, so wut d u think?
Excuse me but... and do you ever wonder if it is your side that's wrong? I'm not meaning to provoke but this question came to me so naturally while reading yours... I'd really quote the Bible now (well I still got a religious education before I had my freedom to choose...which culturally I dont regret) when it says that people should look for the big wood in their eye (or wherever it was) rather than to the tiny one in someone else's eyes... (sorry my translation of it might be poor).Quote:
Originally Posted by Lilac_R
Sure, if you are wrong that might not hurt at all, but still... you asked that to him, did he ask the same to you? or did you ask yourself?
As for the rest, I think I am a nihilist too yeah, and I was depressed for a while. And when I started to feel nihlistic and depressed and all, that's when going to the church became harder and harder until I stopped and became shuly agnostic, and now I feel more convinced than ever of my ideas...I sort of feel good in it cos for me it's much better than believing in other things.
Nice repartee!Quote:
Excuse me but... and do you ever wonder if it is your side that's wrong? I'm not meaning to provoke but this question came to me so naturally while reading yours...
ok, my answer is: No! i've never thought that i might b wrong.not out of pride, but out of deep faith. so the question will b modified to "r u dead sure that u r 100% right as i am?!! is ur faith in wut u believe, wutsoever it is, that firm and deep that it could never ever b shaken?" i'm saying that coz i've always got that feeling that that friend has never been so sure, always hesitant, and when it comes to questions like "then who created that universe and what is it that makes u try hard to do the good thing (like having good morals n doing ur best), his reply makes me astonished when he says : well, i don care whether there was really a creator 4 that universe or not, n i'm doing what i do just 4 the hell of it coz i just believe in concepts!"
that really drives me up the wall..so i always think, there must b sth wrong..
I once read a beautiful and wise analogy relating to the perception and "knowing" of reality, what seems just, and the idea of a Supreme Being.
An elephant rest on the ground, and multiple blind people arrived to identify the large creature; one felt its belly and thought it large, rough, and thick; another touched its ear and thought it flat, smooth, and wide; another touched its tusk and that it round, narrow, and long.
As in Immanuel Kant's concept (in his Critique Of Pure Reason), literally "knowing" everything of the transcendent seems impossible for a human's finite mind. In my opinion, we, as individuals, only perceive the smallest of fragments of any kind of objective reality, yet none of those fragments seems irrelevant; the elephant's tusk seems just as attached to the elephant as its ear and belly.
Calling one religion or spiritual belief superior or inferior to another communicates only that either all of us seem collectively correct, or all of us seem entirely wrong.
I believe Hume said something along the lines of, if this religion is right then all others are wrong. Of course he was writing about miracles. Still....
Ok...so I guess that that's the difference between faith, as in religious faith, and not being faithful... And faith is just something I don't understand, because I don't have it (pretty much as I don't understand love cos I don't have it).Quote:
Originally Posted by Lilac_R
I only think that you should accept that your friend does things just for the sake of them, because as I said before faith is only something you can feel, and if you don't feel it then you don't, end of story - and your life can be somehow complete anyway, even with your own views which may be painful and not as hopeful as a believer's ones... but they are ours, and I just prefer to have my pessimist nihilist ideas, because they are mine and came from my experience, rather than pretend to have faith and spend one hour every week in the church wondering why I'm there.
being on the right side / being on the wrong side ...jeeeeezuz krist!!!!!!!
think! think! think!!!!!!!!!!
for ****'s sake!!! "god" is just a concept,undemonstrable,utterly subjective,a postulate created by human's ancestral fears,anguishes,loneliness and cultivated through terror,lie,superstition and by our species' innermost conflict itself:awareness of death!
if one is honest with oneself,one knows one comes from nowhere and soon will go back to nowhere...lucidity is the greatest humiliation the human being must endure...a great deal of it can lead to suicide or to the edge of it.
thus ,depending on our level of lucidity,our character,education,etc.,we are chosen (we never chose) by a specific religion,doctrine,philosophy,weltanschauung...ther e's no escape,even the anarchy,the atheism,the agnosticism,etc. can b included within the large meaning of "doctrine".
therefore,talking about "the right side" or "the wrong side" in such a delicate matter shows how shallow one's thinking is...
is not wrong to believe in god and is not wrong to be atheist...these are metaphysic needs based on unstable postulates either:
-the order in the universe is not necesarely a sign that some god created it.
-the unjustice and misery in the world is not enough proof against the existence of a superior entity.
even though i am more scared of the people with a firm belief...the inquisitors were 100% sure they were right and those who didn't believe in their god deserved to dye, the muslim kamikazes are 100% sure they are right and if u don't believe what they believe they have the right to kill u.
a man who doubts would never kill or give his life on behalf of an idea .
believe in god if u r confortable with that,don't question on what u believe in if u can't or don't want to,but please,respect your interlocutor's inteligence by not coming forth with sophisms or kindergarden statements in metaphisic debates.
I AM honest with myself, and i know very well i came from somewhere.Quote:
if one is honest with oneself,one knows one comes from nowhere and soon will go back to nowhere
Can anyone live with those two ideas at the same time?Can anyone bring two extremes togther n say i'm ok with that? well, if so, then u r a super-human being!Quote:
-the order in the universe is not necesarely a sign that some god created it.
-the unjustice and misery in the world is not enough proof against the existence of a superior entity.
well, i guess u haven't read wut i wrote carefully.. i said i got an atheist friend, a dear one, & fortunately i haven't killed him yet! (mayb i'll do it in the future, not coz he's not a muslim, but coz his bad temper always drives me crazy!) Plz, Sir, i wish u read more about Islam, there is no killing there, if one doesn't wanna b a muslim, then it's absolutely ok with us, no problem at all, i won't hang them 4 not believing in the same thing i believe in, coz as Koa said, belief is sth inside u n u cannot pretend to have it unless u really do, nor anyone can ever compell u to adhere to sth u don really believe in.Quote:
even though i am more scared of the people with a firm belief...the inquisitors were 100% sure they were right and those who didn't believe in their god deserved to dye, the muslim kamikazes are 100% sure they are right and if u don't believe what they believe they have the right to kill u.
a man who doubts would never kill or give his life on behalf of an idea .
Koa said:
I agree on and respect this.but at the same time i just wonder if one might undergo any feeling of "lack" or "incompleteness" towards one's own life(it does happen when one is a believer too but mayb in a different sense(?!))That friend told me more than once that he feels his life is wasted, being pointless..and this hurts a lot n it even sometimes makes one not very productive..does this apply to all nonbelievers?or it's just a trait?Quote:
I just prefer to have my pessimist nihilist ideas, because they are mine and came from my experience, rather than pretend to have faith and spend one hour every week in the church wondering why I'm there.
my last post in this thread ... related 2 nothing and nobody,just so,for the record...
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."
Albert Einstein
-------------------
"Blessed are the poor in spirit for theirs is the kingdom of heaven"
amen!
Well ok.. was just going to say, please, discuss ideas, not the posters who have expressed said ideas :)Quote:
Originally Posted by sir
I do not feel you sound arrogant to me you sound like you are a happy person who just happens to not believe in a higher being. People tend to lump everyone who has the same faith as believing the same when in fact we do not. You are right you should be free to be a atheist without anyone saying, 'hey aren't you worried about your soul.' Your Grandmother sounds like mine and because even though we are both Spiritualist I do not practice our faith correctly but I still love her. Even though small strokes have affected her mind I let her say and let it go. I enjoy listening to all of you who believe or not believe. I was depressed before I found faith it is interesting to find someone opposite of me and anyway we can get out of a depression is a good way in my book.Quote:
Originally Posted by Koa