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Wintermute said
Take a look here, PBS did a show on this subject that my change your mind.
As I went there and I would have had to buy the video to get the substance, could you say what the results of the research were? I really don't feel like coughing up the money.
christians have been found in large numbers of studies to commit more crimes than atheists and agnostics, plus we have things like the crusades. so yeah, christians do lots of good deeds.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bookworm4Him
I believe the point of the crimes commited by the 'c'hristians is that we have a place to come to in the putting away of those crimes and still satisfy 'justice'. I personally have commited many 'crimes' that as forthcoming as I am in my blog I would be ashamed to admit even to this august group of looker oners. And I hasten to assure you any 'good' deeds of mine are not worth a penny to remember in the long run. Deeds are a byproduct of our faith not the primary cause.
No, the presuposition isn't that bigger heavier rocks are harder to lift than smaller, lighter rocks, it's that it is harder for God to lift a bigger rock than a smaller one. Size doesn't matter with Him. That was the point I was making. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by kilted exile
Ok, gonna have to disagree here. The presupposition of any problem is the most basic attainable part. That being "rocks that are bigger, heavier are harder to lift"
Once you change it to harder for God, you have already made a number of other assumptions on top of the root:
1) That there is a Supreme Being (he/she/it/they/whatever)
2) That we know what powers this being has, and are aware of levels of difficulty for tasks performed by "it"
I in no way was trying to say that it was works that got us in to Heaven, 'cause then no one could, so please don't take that wrongly. I was trying to say that, by non-Christians view, Christian do good things. Sorry for that confusion.
Also, you say that studies have shown "Christians" to commit more crimes than others, but it depends on who you are calling Christians. I know many who claim to be Christians, but in no way talk, or act like it in anyway. And though works aren't what make people Christians, they certainly show whether they truly mean it or not. If the Ben Fiesel killers claim to be Christians, would you believe it? Def. not!!!! Although there are many criminals who may become Christians, but they change their ways. If you took a survey of true Christians, I don't think they would be the majority of criminals. Visit our church sometime and judge for yourself.
err, crusades? threatened torture of galileo? pogroms against jews becuase they supposedly drank christian childrens blood? youre right, you guys have no history of bad deeds. :) and what about those killers who say: "god told me to do it"?
did you in any way read my last post? At all? Ok, well maybe you should. That would clarify a few things. And as for the people who claim "god told me to do it" didn't you just say they were killers? I've no doubt they are liars too. Ever heard of a truthful murderer? Didn't think so. They're just looking for some sort of justification.Quote:
Originally Posted by Matrim Cuathon
We already discussed the Supreme Being part. It's on page 37 (I think) Go back and read that first. And I'm not assuming that we know the limits of God, I am in fact asserting the opposites. I am saying that men, with this presumption, assume that God follows the same limits as men. That is why the whole arguement is false, b/c people base the limits of God, by their own limits.Quote:
Originally Posted by kilted exile
christians have been found in large numbers of studies to commit more crimes than atheists and agnostics, plus we have things like the crusades. so yeah, christians do lots of good deeds.-Said by Matrim Cuathon
Of course Christians have commited more crimes that Atheists and Agnostics; there are more of them. The thing about most Christianity (there is always the occasional loony who says their Jesus and then is caught embezzling money) is that they accept that they are not perfect and want to repent in order to get to heaven. You can't count the crusades; that was a war that was essentially to unite Europe and protect the Byzantines that was given Paupal blessing to get more soldiers. It also happened almost a millenia ago, when there were no agnostics or atheists around, not publicly anyway.
On the whole 'God making a rock issue', of course God can make a rock that he can't lift, but then he wouldn't be omnipotent anymore, so why would he?
Thank you! And also, just to address it a little more, most of people living during the Crusades called themselves Christians because they weren't Jews. Those were pretty much the only choices. It wasn't their spiritual beliefs, it was more of a...political party, like Republican and Democrat. The "Christians" in the Crusades weren't Christians fighting for the glory of God, they were simply men who wanted to fight, and also, as Dante Wodehouse said, trying to unite Europe. They aint "Christians"Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Wodehouse
Ok...this is just getting a little bothersome...let me explain it one more time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Wodehouse
In an arguement, or a debate, there are always things called "presupositions". For example, if you were arguing that your dog is the cutest in the world, then some of the presupositions are one, and the most obvious, that you have a dog, and then there are more, but they are usually already accepted as facts, for example, that something can be cute, that the world really does exsist, and others. If the presuposition is false, then the arguement is invalid. Got it? ok :thumbs_up let's move on
In the arguement "Can God make a rock so heavy he can't lift it?" one of the persupositions is "A heavier rock is harder for God to lift than a lighter one. But that is false, as things aren't more difficult than others for God. Therefore, the arguement is invalid. ~IMPORTANT~ Remember that the presuposition is based on God's abilities, not man's.
Ok. I hope it is clearer now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matrim Cuathon
I am so tired of this particular tactic: do you notice that the storgest card often played against Christianity is from the 10-13th centuries? That there are Christians who have done stupid, hurtful things invalidates Christianity as a positive force in the world in the same way that a few bad cops, bad Catholic priests, bad teachers, bad doctors, bad lawyers, bad whatever invalidates all the good that police, priests, teachers, doctors, lawyers, etc have done in the world. That some loons claim "God told me to do it" doesn't mean that they actually heard from God (the odds are overwhelming that they didn't). All religions contain misguided people - all non-religious groups contain wackos. Quite judging all of Christianity by the "exceptions." Look around at some of the good things - humanitarian relief, social change (Christians instigated the abolitonist movement in the US in the 19th century). Come up with an original attack that doesn't simply prove that Christians are human too and prone to bad choices, character weaknesses and shortcomings just like everybody else.
Hehe, good exchuse for not spending more than a few seconds glancing at the site, lol. Yes, you can purchase the broadcast video if you want, but the site has a ton of material. If you really want to know the state of animal behavior science, I suggest you spend some time investigating. You can find all the information you could want without spending a dime--just a lil' time. I'm as agnostic as they come--uncertain of practically everything--but in this instance, in my opinion, you are very wrong. Anyway, I ain't gonna change your mind on this, and I know how I feel, so if it's ok with you, let's drop it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Wodehouse