Do you know how many minutes' ratta-tatta-tatta the Spitfire could deliver before the pilot had to go home for more bullets?
None.
It was sixteen seconds.
That's not how it comes across in the movies, I'm telling you.
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Do you know how many minutes' ratta-tatta-tatta the Spitfire could deliver before the pilot had to go home for more bullets?
None.
It was sixteen seconds.
That's not how it comes across in the movies, I'm telling you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sancho
Thanks Sancho. My father did quite well for himself after the war, through the remainder of his life.
(Quick correction: That's MAJOR Elliott Summer referring to my earlier post)
The P-47 is a beast.
A humorous excerpt from Famous Fighters of the Second World War by William Green:
“When in January 1943, the U.S.A.A.F.’s 56th Fighter Group arrived in the United Kingdom with its massive Republic P-47 Thunderbolts, R.A.F. fighter pilots banteringly suggested that their American colleagues would be able to take evasive action when attacked by undoing their harness and dodging about the fuselage of their huge mounts.”
The Corsair was quite intimidating with an impressive performance under the Navy and Marines. It was the longest production piston fighter continuing service into the Korean War. The Corsair’s fame was due in part to the accomplishments and antics of the “Black sheep Squadron” led by “Pappy” Boyington.Quote:
Originally Posted by prendrelemick
With only balsa and plywood wrapped around two Merlins, high speed was not difficult to achieve in the Mosquito!
I spent some time on a sentimental journey digging through old photos and found a few you might appreciate.
First some background music - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ot_1M...eature=related
Father during Primary Training (“PT”) phase along with the rest of the class. He is standing at far right. The tubes coming out of the ears received a flexible communication hose, given that you can tell who the instructor is!
The plane is a Ryan PT-22
http://i963.photobucket.com/albums/a...iningclass.jpg
Next phase was Basic Training (“BT”). The plane is Vultee BT-13 “Vibrator”
http://i963.photobucket.com/albums/a...lightBT-13.jpg
Final phase was Advanced Training (“AT”) using the North American AT-6 “Texan”.
Father and a nightclub blonde bombshell. Somewhere in California, probably LA, during fighter training before heading off to the Phillipines.
http://i963.photobucket.com/albums/a...bbombshell.jpg
Good looks must skip a generation, cause I sure as hell don’t look like this:
http://i963.photobucket.com/albums/a...tudiophoto.jpg
Finally, some P-38 nose art plus one from a C-47 photos taken by my father C’mon, they’re no worse than some of those images St. Lukes posts:
http://i963.photobucket.com/albums/a...Artreduced.jpg
http://i963.photobucket.com/albums/a...Gognoseart.jpg
http://i963.photobucket.com/albums/a...artreduced.jpg
http://i963.photobucket.com/albums/a...eGalonC-47.jpg
It’s counterintuitive but 16 seconds is an eternity in Air Fighting, and more than twice the trigger time of modern Fighters. So if it seems like a very long time when that the movie pilot is firing away – it is in real life too. What Hollywood doesn’t get at very well is trigger discipline, which is a technicality and doesn’t really matter to the plot or to movie goers anyway, so – who cares? Suffice it to say, in Air-to-Air or Air-to-Mud whether you run out of fuel or bullets first (Bingo Out or Go Winchester) is a crap shoot.Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkBastable
Nice photos, Gill! I haven’t heard that story, but I suppose at that point in time, having survived the Battle of Britain, the RAF Blokes certainly had bragging rights over their Yankee brothers. The always quotable Winston Churchill said of the RAF’s performance during - the most intense air battle of all time: Never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to so few. Another well-known quote (or at least sentiment) from the time prior to D-Day, when much of the US Army was in England, was about the only problems with the Yanks…was that they were overpaid, over-sexed, and over here. But I reckon John Bull preferred Uncle Sam to Herman the German.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilliatt Gurgle
I’ve gotta tell ya, Mick, I’ve met more Aviation buffs in the UK than any other place I’ve been. I suspect the Battle of Britain left a mark on the national consciousness aviation-wise, but I don’t know. At airports like Manchester Intl’ they still have viewing stands by the runway where people hang out and write down the tail numbers of airliners in their logbooks as they land. Speaking of Manchester, the Manchester Museum of Science and Industry has a very good aviation hall. There’s no Hurricane but they do have a Submarine Spitfire and a Hawker Hunter. I was disappointed that there wasn’t an Avro Lancaster Bomber, but there was an Avro Shackleton Maritime plane. And more importantly there were a bunch of old guys hanging around there who knew absolutely everything about all of the exhibits. I got a personalized tour – “Hey mates, it’s a Yank, let’s show him around…he needs to know about the aspect ratio of the wing on the Hawker Siddeley Trident…oh yes, and we need to tell him about the engineering history behind the pitot-static system of the de Havilland Vampire…and so on. I stayed there until closing time, and then the old guys let me buy them a few pints at an off-license pub. It was a great day. And this is sort of weird, but somehow symmetrical, considering you mentioned Madeline Caroll, I ate at an excellent restaurant in Manchester on that trip – a little pricey but worth it – called 39 Steps. Freaky,eh?Quote:
Originally Posted by prendrelemick
I'm sure it did, everywise. I think that the fact that the war came to the towns and countryside has made it an immediate part of British understanding of the world in a way that until recently was impossible for Americans to understand.Quote:
Sancho wrote: I suspect the Battle of Britain left a mark on the national consciousness aviation-wise, but I don’t know
In the winter of 2001, my wife - who'd by then lived in London about eight months - and I went to an exhibition at the Barbican of photographs of the City during the Blitz. All those images of London in flames were familiar to me, of course. But she said, "God - I never realised what it was like. It was 9/11 every night."
While we're talking about the Second World War, by the way, I highly recommend this: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Double-Cross...6891897&sr=1-1
Those are great photo's GG, your father was a real hero.
I suppose the Battle of Britain is stamped upon the consciousness of the Nation. Or should I say the Legends are. Churchill, The Few, the Spitfire, our finest hour and all that. Perhaps it is because it was fought overhead in full view of the population, or the fact that we were the underdog. Whatever the strategic implications, it was a glorious episode in our history.
I would recommend reading Adolph Galland's biography for a German view on the Battle of Britain. Fascinating stuff.
I know the MMSI well, though I like to go and look at all those huge mill engines next door.
I couldn't remember the lovely Jean Creamer who's image appears on that plane so I looked her up!:blush:
Thanks Sancho and Mark for the book suggestion. Coincidentally, I am currently reading volume one of Anthony Cave Brown’s Bodyguard of Lies from my father’s library.
“The extraordinary true story of the clandestine war of intricate deceptions that hid the secrets of D-Day from Hitler and sealed the Allied victory.”
Richard Hough and Dennis Richards The Battle of Britain is another we’ve had in the family library.
There’s a humorous sketch in the book, exemplifying how near to home the battle truly was. The sketch shows a couple blokes out in the countryside, one of which is offering directions to the other:
“Eglantine cottage? Go down the lanes past the Messerschmitt, bear left and keep on past the two Dorniers, then turn right and it’s just past the first Junkers.” Punch, 4 September 1940
I stumbled on this video back during those glorious chemtrail thread days. On a serious note, it still brings brings a tear to my eye:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUx3MU9iM6c
Thanks Mick and also for the book suggestion. Galland and Rommel seemed to be of similar stripes regarding their personal feelings about the war and attitude toward Hitler, Nazism.
I’m pretty sure Jean was a fictional character whose role was to “cream” the enemy with four .50 caliber guns and one 20 mm cannon. Note the one gun port that is taped over.
If you will indulge me one more time with a family photo, it is Mother’s Day here. Mom in uniform as WW II Army nurse:
http://i963.photobucket.com/albums/a...IArmyNurse.jpg
The pictures and discussion has taken an interesting turn. I've been a bit busy recently, though I've dropped in to take a look at what's happening.
Fantastic pictures Gilliatt - thanks for sharing. You must be proud of your parents. They look great in the uniforms.
I have little knowledge of planes, but a few of our relatives have told us of the effects of the bombing in Coventry during WW2.
My Mother-in-Law was evacuated to Wales when she was a kid during the Blitz. She didn't like the schools there as they did too much singing, but she had fun working on the farms.
The old Uncle and his family was bombed out of their home. They lived near a huge ordanance warehouse, which was not the best place to live during total war. They had just spent their first night in a house in a village - Fillongley - a few miles away, and when the old Uncle and his Dad returned to the house the next day after the big raid, they found that a slab of masonry had gone through the roof and smashed his parent's bed through the living room ceiling.
They didn't return to the house, as it had been rendered uninhabitable, but eventually got their own place in the village.
One of the learners in my class a few years ago told me that she had been a schoolgirl during the war, and, upon going home for dinner one day, she was fired at by a German plane. She said she told her Mum, who told her off for exaggerating, and sent her back to school for the afternoon.
I agree. Those are fabulous pictures, Gill. And you’re a good son – Happy mother’s Day to your Mom. While I was browsing those photos I had to keep reminding myself that for all those people, with all those smiling faces, the future was uncertain. We all have the benefit of knowing what happened, but at that time the outcome of the war was far from guaranteed.
Also, that's an amazing schoolgirl story, Paul. The Nazis did some horrible things, but strafing schoolgirls is below dastardly.
Very proud indeed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulclem
Well Paul, you only have yourself to blame with your mentioning on the planes you saw during your recent to “ye olde Coventry.” One mention of a WW II fighter plane and you’ve suddenly opened up the throttle to a classic blokey subject.
The mention of Conventry and the Blitz, brought to mind a gesture of peace I learned of a few weeks ago when I was trying to recall the name of the ruined church in Berlin. Inside Kaiser Wilhelm Memorial Church there is a cross made from large nails once used in the wood structure from Coventry Cathedral that was destroyed during the Blitz.
From Wikipedia:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ntry_Cross.jpg
Thanks and interesting observation Sancho. In the case of the photos above, the smiles were a little easier to come by among those you see and among the Allies in general, since they were taken toward the latter half of 1944 and into 1945. The Allies had, by that time, gained air superiority and it was clear that we were advancing on the ground in Europe and island by island in the Pacific.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sancho
One serious threat to that air superiority came with the advent of jet power and the Messerschmitt ME 262. Fortunately Hitler’s coked up mind (see Theodor Morell) convinced him that the jet should be used primarily as a ground attack weapon instead of a pursuit fighter against the waves of allied bombers. And it was those bombers that included ME 262 factories among their top priority targets thus stymieing production.
Back to planes and engines. Another British workhorse that I’d always admired, is the Hawker Tempest. The subtle gull wing and curvature of the trailing edge of the Tempest is beautiful, not quite as pronounced as the Corsair. A 24 cylinder Napier Sabre engine hauled the Tempest over 400 mph.
Listen to the pass at 4:23
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKq51LdJ-ZU
(what is happening to this thread?)
.
I had a Sancho like experience in Coventry Cathederal, I was taken in hand and given a three hour tour by an old bloke who remembered the bombing.
Coventry Cathederal sent many of those crosses out all over the world. Strangely for a symbol of peace, the original one that was fashioned immediately after the fire cooled was given to the warship HMS Coventry and was passed on to Ships bearing that name untill The Falklands conflict, when the last Coventry was sunk.
Navy divers salvaged the cross and it is now on another ship with Coventry connections. (I can't remember the name.)
Yes - they've got a cross of nails in the ruins of the old cathedral too. It's a powerful symbol of regeneration for the city. There was a lot of reconciliation work done after the war.
I'm going to post those pictures of the Spitfire and Messcherschmidt. I would have done it just now but the converters for the micro SDs have gone!! Grrrrrrr
Just as an aside to the current topic, I watched the last Match of the Day last night which showed the last games for this season played in the football premiership.
I have to say it was brilliant.
It was between Manchester United and Manchester City - reds and blues respectively.
The went into their final games on equal points, but with Man City ahead on goal difference - the amount of goals scored minus the amount conceded. Manchester United needed to win to have a hope of winning the title again.
If Manchester United won, then Manchester City needed to win to stay on top with the better goal difference.
Man United were playing Sunderland away. They had quite a few chances, but Wayne Rooney scored to make it 1:0 to Man U. Sunderland came close, but didn't look like winning.
Man City took and early lead against Queens Park Rangers to make it 1:0, but QPR came back with two goals to make it QPR 2, Man City 0.
Both games were drawing to a close, and the situation remained the same. It looked like Man U had snatched it from Man City.
Then extra time was added - 3 mins for the Man U game and 5 mins for the Man City game. As a consequence Man U's game ended, with them winning their game and waiting for the final whistle in the other. They were in front, and it looked like they had won.
Then, in the extra time, Man City scored two gaols within a minute, and took the lead 3:2 over QPR, won the game and won the title.
It was a brilliant end to a brilliant season. I'm glad Man City won, as Man U have won the title loads of times. Roll on the next one in August - after the European Cup. Yippee!
Yup, Football is Drama. That's its appeal to me, and Sunday had it in bucketfulls. The whole season came down to the very last minute.
Afterwards the joy of those Man City fans was brilliant, it reminded me of the first time Man United won it under Fergie - before they became used to winning all the time.
As one City fan said, they have been waiting 44 years for a bit of luck and on Sunday it all arrived in one two minute dollop.
Tsk tsk tsk...I return after a long time and decide to take a sneap peak at the enemy camp and lo and behold! we have pornographic content in the blokes' thread! :P Stereotypical much? :D :D xx
No no, Our historical and cultural discussions are wide ranging and unbridled.
eg. compare this with the WW II art
http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k7...us_de_milo.jpg
Don't forget those pictures Paul.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulclem
Yes, I noticed the headline a few days ago about Man City winning. Congratulations.
The Dallas Mavericks (pro basketball) were swept in the first round of playoffs after winning it all last year.
The Texas Rangers (baseball) are starting out pretty well. Maybe third time's a charm after losing the World Series two years in a row.
Haha! brilliant.Quote:
Originally Posted by prendrelemick
I can picture it now; the Mona Lisa on the nose of a B-17.
Who knows there may have been one.
.