Why I believe in God?

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Originally Posted by NikolaiI

What I don't get... those militant atheist... when I used to read their posts.. they consider all of us believers to be the "same." Even though some are fundamentalists, some are liberals, etc., etc...

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Speaking as a militant atheist, I don't think that's true. Amongst my siblings, with whom I get on very well, I can identify the following: a staunch Baptist who's a pillar of the church; a trained minister who lost his faith in God but who has developed a fondness for the rituals of the Catholic Church; a pragmatic agnostic who as a young and less sceptical man smuggled Bibles into Soviet Russia; and a sister who's entirely unengaged with any kind of religious debate on the basis that it's less interesting than almost everything else. I have atheist friends, Christian friends, Muslim friends, Jewish friends and Hindu friends. (This isn't because I'm a particularly gregarious and tolerant guy - it just goes with being a Londoner.)

But sticking with the varied range of beliefs, currently and historically, among my siblings, I think it's worth asking why we get on well. It's because we share a view of the world that has to do with tolerance, kindness and the free, mutual expression of intellectual mockery - directed, often, at each other. We argue when we need to, we show utter lack of respect for each other's views when it amuses us to do so and we simply accept each other when that's what'll keep us all happy.

My Christian brother honestly believes that the fires of Hell await me, my (Catholic) wife and, unless something is done, my children. I think that he's kidding himself if he thinks he can avoid oblivion. However, we don't let any of this spoil dessert.

I don't see why religious beliefs should need the protection of some code of respect. Either beliefs stand up for themselves through reasoned argument or they don't. If they don't then we shouldn't expect people of reason to refrain from showing how ridiculous or irrelevant they are. Besides, beliefs should be criticised. And in doing so, it is not the believer or any individual that is under attack. It is the belief or view that is being held. If you feel that you are your belief or that your view is inextricably linked to your self, then that's your problem.

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Originally Posted by prendrelemick

Perhaps a big sign written in the sky. He could use the northern lights or something. It could say: "HELLO DOWN THERE! Yes it's me, GOD, and I did create the Universe- so think on!"

That would be enough. Not much to ask of someone who can make ice bergs float, is it?

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No, you would not do that, it´s only that airplane with some smoke in the tail...

Why? Do you understand, that that sign exists in WHOLE universe? And BTW: Do you remember, what happened to Noah? Do you remember, that road to tree was guarded with two angels & flaming sword. Noah told that flood will come. And still no-one listened. This is very good point to think - it is NOT even matter of faith always, only caring.

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Originally Posted by JommiL

No, you would not do that, it´s only that airplane with some smoke in the tail...

Why? Do you understand, that that sign exists in WHOLE universe? And BTW: Do you remember, what happened to Noah? Do you remember, that road to tree was guarded with two angels & flaming sword. Noah told that flood will come. And still no-one listened. This is very good point to think - it is NOT even matter of faith always, only caring.

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Not to mention the Pharisees who tried to discredit Christ's miracles as being from Beelzebub. If people don't want to believe, then they will deny anything.

Actually the crux of the matter is, if you want to believe you'll believe anything. Virgin birth? No problem. Raising people from the dead? No problem. Miracles happening in a physical predictable universe? No problem. All you need is the mindset to support any irrational claim, and you'll believe it. Bit like fairy stories and folk tales.

For all ideas originate from our beliefs and by believing in something we form our ideas. The idea of god therefore precedes the existence of god for us. I do not mean god comes after our idea but our capacity to understand the existence of god.

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Originally Posted by atiguhya padma

I don't see why religious beliefs should need the protection of some code of respect. Either beliefs stand up for themselves through reasoned argument or they don't. If they don't then we shouldn't expect people of reason to refrain from showing how ridiculous or irrelevant they are. Besides, beliefs should be criticised. And in doing so, it is not the believer or any individual that is under attack. It is the belief or view that is being held. If you feel that you are your belief or that your view is inextricably linked to your self, then that's your problem.

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Everyone deserves respect and love. I am not saying that we should show love here, but we should show respect. Especially since that is the law laid down by the authorities of this site. It's not just believers whose beliefs should be respected here but also atheists or anyone - everyone. No one should be insulted, ridiculed, etc., for their beliefs and yet they are. By idiots.

And what you say about separating the person and their beliefs... well, that doesn't hold up too much. Just consider how some people go on the attack... "Well, that is just the stupidest, most idiotic thing I've ever heard anyone say!"

I think that refutes your objection... the last one, that is.. in your post.. What if someone said that to you? It's not that you have some mis-identity or you identify yourself too much with your belief. It's just that if someone insults your beliefs in a descriptive enough way, then you just don't want to be around or near that kind of negativity...ugliness. Am I wrong, Atiguhya padma?

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Originally Posted by JommiL

No, you would not do that, it´s only that airplane with some smoke in the tail...

Why? Do you understand, that that sign exists in WHOLE universe? And BTW: Do you remember, what happened to Noah? Do you remember, that road to tree was guarded with two angels & flaming sword. Noah told that flood will come. And still no-one listened. This is very good point to think - it is NOT even matter of faith always, only caring.

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My point was, some of us need something a bit more unequivocal. This is a cynical age.

A lot has been debated about evolution theory in last couple of days and I have come to know about some good theists.

I will just put my viewpoint.

The evolution theory may not be exact as such but I honestly do not reject the idea that initially there could have been unicellular life, simple organisms, amphibions, vegetation and slowly over the period of times more complex creatures and apes and then humans appeared on earth.
Dinosaurs could well have disappeared due to a big meteorite striking the earth. Species could have survived and become extinct as per survival of the fittest.

Also Bible’s story of seven days could be just symbolic wherein a day could be, lets say more than a billion years as one member has pointed.

However, I also tell myself that many points of this theory may not be conclusive evidence, and may be, things can be explained in some other better way, some future day by science - as science continues in it pursuit of truth.

Also when we seek truth, we have always to ask -Why?
For e.g. in evolution theory, we can ask - Why should there be tendency to evolve from unicellular life to higher life forms, in first place.
And if an atheist says it is in nature of things, I will again ask why? If there is an answer for it also, I can put another why before him, and then another why and so on?
Similarly, I can ask why there has to be forces like gravity, or electricity or magnetism and so many other things.

The answer can be very well in one of NikolaiI’s post where he has used a very correct word- Source.

True believers can take God as source of all above, as they take God as source of all love and mercy and all other things.

There is a good chance that life exists in many other planets on universe but why can not be the same God or Power, still responsible for everything.

The idea that, we, human beings, who have the capability to think and love and create life and who have invented aeroplanes, space shuttles, internet, cell phones, nuclear bombs etc are only a coincidental by-product of a hot, dense mass that burst with a big bang some 13 billions year ago, does not jell to me.

May be, if it could have occurred 15 or 16 billions years ago, it could have made more sense.

In nut shell, I think there can be many people like me who believe in God and also many points of the evolution theory.

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Originally Posted by prendrelemick

My point was, some of us need something a bit more unequivocal. This is a cynical age.

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But this is completely subjective. For one who lost all their possessions and their family, and their friends, they would grieve, perhaps they would recover or perhaps they would become most depressed and cynical. But for another person, let's say they suffered a little less but somehow overcame their problems to come to a peaceful, meaningful, harmonious existence. For them it is not cynical but the opposite. So it is subjective - maybe you see more people today are cynical... but maybe I see more people are becoming enlightened. In fact I think there are so, so many more people these days who are so close to enlightenment. In general people are turning away from fundamentalism and superstition and turning towards logic and spirituality. Many people are finidng peace, and truth within, and finding deep love, and they are sharing it, forming connections... so that is why I say that we are close to being much more enlightened as a race.

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Originally Posted by laidbackperson

I also tell myself that many points of this theory may not be conclusive evidence, and may be, things can be explained in some other better way, some future day by science - as science continues in it pursuit of truth.

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I believe the exact same thing. And I believe a better theory will come from scientific researchers, not religiously motivated ideologues.

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Also when we seek truth, we have always to ask -Why?

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But as far as natural phenomena go, why do we never get a sufficient answer? The absurdity of the universe---the human condition---is that the why questions are meaningless.

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The idea that, we, human beings, who have the capability to think and love and create life and who have invented aeroplanes, space shuttles, internet, cell phones, nuclear bombs etc are only a coincidental by-product of a hot, dense mass that burst with a big bang some 13 billions year ago, does not jell to me.

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Homo Sap has a pretty inflated sense of his own self-worth. He loves to think of himself as God's most beloved creation, or as able to tap into the wellspring of pure Being, or at the very least as the crowning achievement of evolution. None of these things are any more than wishful thinking, part of the boundless narcissism of our species.

Regards,

Istvan

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Originally Posted by JommiL

I understand why - perhaps it has something to do with your alias :smilewinkgrin:

But remember - there´s a lot on things, that cannot be found in atheists wordbook. Many people think, that believing in God is weakness. But it is not. If anyone really wants to check out, what bible will teach about moral etc. it is very obvious, that it creates lot of strenght.
There´s many paradoxes in life. One of them is that we must be weak - we must admit that we need each other - to be strong. Being just "strong" without mercy and hope and caring, we are doomed into loneliness, after all. But then we hit our nose into tall, hard wall: No-one can live just alone and survive mentally. For example - as well known fact is - our mental state of mind and ability grow as humans stops otherwise. This is just a basic information about psychology.

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I have no qualms with your clinical attempt at reducing the concept of a supreme being to a mere psychological need. Do keep in mind that your all too humane moral projections upon any such entity are only a romantic and narcissistic need to identify and connect yourself with something beyond explanation or knowledge.

I also needn't remind you that the concept of a supreme being and religion are two different things. Morality is mostly a matter of convenience which changes its state with time and place; the reason why civilization needed to invent legality of human actions.

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Originally Posted by tailor STATELY

Thank you. My response was to highlight a logical slip on your part - I find the logical progression for your views usually less salient.

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I don't and perhaps you wouldn't either, had you kept the context of the post in mind which I was replying to. Why is that the existence of billions of dead pieces of rock and gas do not ascertain to absence of a creator, but a small obscure green planet becomes the testament to a divine design and authority? What's your logical explanation of this wishful thinking?

If any such being is indeed beyond human perception and logical explanations, then it doesn't matter if you're a believer or not. To quote Ludwig Wittgenstein: "a nothing will serve just as well as a something about which nothing can be said."

"Satan believes in God, but he will not worship him."

- Pentti Saarikoski, Finnish poet.

"I also needn't remind you that the concept of a supreme being and religion are two different things. Morality is mostly a matter of convenience which changes its state with time and place; the reason why civilization needed to invent legality of human actions."

So very very wrong and no they are NOT. I can assure you, but i believe that you are totally hopeless in this matter.
Anyway, this means that there´s no good or bad. Everyone knows, that they exists. How the heck every time we just do something - like steal, lie etc. - everyone hates it? Believe me, i know satanism very well indeed. It is very easy way to think and see from upper level. It is just VERY big lie in every way.
There´s no such thing that "ubermench". We are just men. What is humanity? We will wound easily, we must stay "in the frontline" if we want to succeed and if we want to be better in every day. But still were are mortals. In this point; Dear Satan, you can live your life as you want to. Everyone has opportunity to choose. But this i´ll tell you; IF you love life, you don´t have any future. You just have some "pleasures" and foolish & full-of-lies feeling about being strong and independent. If you like, live it. But i dont want that you would do that. I could say, that "yeah, live your life, but DONT come back tome and say, that you were wrong." No. Why i should think like that? If i would, i would say, that YOU have no opportunity to build yourself. And because everyone has that opportunity, so do you. THIS is the matter of faith and hope. This means, that you have possibility to choose. But it is up to you, how you use this choice. No-one can´t do it for you, just yourself. So because you say, that you are responsible of ALL of your actions, feel free to do it and use your total freedom. But IF you will choose wrong way - man - it is just your fault.
Why? Because - in the last act - total freedom is the final corner on hell. We NEED moral laws because under them we are safe. If we just deny God and morality, we can keep anything as value. No good, no bad, no judgment, no law: No reason to be true, valuable human and humble, only reason and opportunity to live like a pig in the field, after all. Is that humanity? Is that humanity, that people kill each other? So; feel free to do and live anyway you like. Inner moral can be different than that we show to other people. I wonder also, why Jesus blamed those guys that they were just like gold-plated? White, nice looking tombs, and just bones inside. And there´s no any reason to say, what this kind of actions will lead us. Or do I?

God is the absolute. A lot of times, or perhaps every time, atheists will reject this view. They say there is no absolute. Yet God is that, or in other words, God is Reality. Who would think there is nothing at all more real than this known existence?

For example death. Atheists today say that death is the end of our existence. But they never questioned if existence is at is appears. What some found was that death and life are not opposites, but they form a whole, they are one. They're yin and yang.

It makes no sense to think there is nothing beyond what we currently know. If anyone takes the view that there's nothing beyond what he or she knows, then they have immediately sealed their continued separation from truth. And yet this is what people are fighting about all the time. And they resort to tactics such as lumping all who say there is a soul as the same as those fundamentalists who demand you read the Bible... who can be scary at times.

So what is God? God in Hinduism is written about in scriptures as the Witness. God's the Witness, of what? Of the nearly infinite information which is this universe, this matrix. But God is beyond the matrix. And how can we understand what the matrix of information, which we call this universe, is? It's like a dream. It has no real existence, exactly like a dream.

To be free, to reach God, to know God, that is the highest experience. Yet in this existence there is seeming imperfection, and for that reason people deny the existence of God. The matrix of information which is the entire universe we know, that is merely a tiny point in God. God is Reality, and the universe is a tiny point within Reality. But within this tiny point, which to us is the whole universe, is the only place where it seems that God is not. Rather, it seems that events and information are unconnected.

And because it seems so bewiledering, for whatever reason that it seems that information is unconnected - that leads people to say that there is no way to know everything. In the worst case of this, people become ugly to each other. That's the cause of almost all suffering.

Now there have been many divine saints such as Christ, Muhammad, peace be upon them, and others who are less well-known. These divine saints saw God, and they knew the highest divine consciousness. Only on the lower levels is there difficulty. In the lower levels it seems as though there is a serious battle between good and evil. But the higher levels one knows the reality beyond this universe, as well as knowing that within this universe there is nothing to fear. They saw that anyone can come to God, can be free of all the bonds. And since this world will always have people who wish to play these games of life and all that is in life; they at least gave the answer to the interpersonal relationships, the answer being love.

They gave poems and other writings from their spiritual awareness which help us to become aware of the eternal, infinite existence beyond this matrix of information which is God. Love is the center of all of these writings and poems and all of their talks. God is at the center.

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Originally Posted by NikolaiI

Everyone deserves respect and love. I am not saying that we should show love here, but we should show respect. Especially since that is the law laid down by the authorities of this site. It's not just believers whose beliefs should be respected here but also atheists or anyone - everyone. No one should be insulted, ridiculed, etc., for their beliefs and yet they are. By idiots.

And what you say about separating the person and their beliefs... well, that doesn't hold up too much. Just consider how some people go on the attack... "Well, that is just the stupidest, most idiotic thing I've ever heard anyone say!"

I think that refutes your objection... the last one, that is.. in your post.. What if someone said that to you? It's not that you have some mis-identity or you identify yourself too much with your belief. It's just that if someone insults your beliefs in a descriptive enough way, then you just don't want to be around or near that kind of negativity...ugliness. Am I wrong, Atiguhya padma?

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People deserve respect not ideas or beliefs. Can you imagine a philosophy professor complaining to the principal that people don't respect his philosophical views? He or she would be laughed at. if ideas, beliefs or viewpoints do not hold water, we should stop trying to artificially keep them
afloat. The fact that nowadays Christians are forever harping on about respect for their religious views shows just how weak their arguments are: they cannot defend their ideas well enough, so they're left with the last resort, respect, which leaves them free to propound nonsense and jargon without due review. It's the old story of the Emperor's new clothes.