D.H. Lawrence's Short Stories Thread

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11-02-2007, 12:42 AM
Quark

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janine

:yawnb: I don't know, but if you keep this up, I will be up till 5 in the morning today - already it is 12:15 AM - the next day, just dark out still! I have never been so entertained in my life as tonight!

I probably should go to bed then. Besides, we're burying the Lawrence discussion with our little back-and-forth.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janine

and you probably were not even trying to be funny.

Were you laughing at me?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janine

Yes, I was just over there in S&L - say what (?) - what where you thinking anyway???? Yes - it was a pretty 'frivolous' statement you made. Did you see my comments?

Yes, and I tried to set everything right, but then I used the word "contented" in a weird, misleading way. So, tomorrow I will have to explain that I meant that I thought that Paul was in a better place at the end, not that he was contented at the end. How could he be contented? He's almost suicidally depressed at the end.
11-02-2007, 12:52 AM
Janine

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quark

I probably should go to bed then. Besides, we're burying the Lawrence discussion with our little back-and-forth.

Yes, I am feeling a little dizzy - going back-and-forth...like on a see-saw or something. Now everyone can see why I am suffering a stiff neck this week. I should head to bed and work on reading the rest of the novel.

Quote:

Were you laughing at me?

Never...'at you', only 'with you'......but you are really funny sometimes! :lol:

Quote:

Yes, and I tried to set everything right, but then I used the word "contented" in a weird, misleading way. So, tomorrow I will have to explain that I meant that I thought that Paul was in a better place at the end, not that he was contented at the end. How could he be contented? He's almost suicidally depressed at the end.

I saw that and I am proud of you. It was a very good post. I understood what you meant. It is not easy to understand the feelings at the end of that book. I don't think Lawrence meant it to be fully understood or realised. He knew one would think on it for a long time. He wrote something to this effect in a letter. I will try and dig it up to post. He felt if you read a book once, it was not enough, and if you did and had it all figured out, it was not a good book. One had to appreciate a book by reading it countless times, at least twice. He did so himself - amazing don't you think?... considering the body of work he produced in his short life - died in mid 40's of TB. I have to admire the man - he really did a lot under many obstacles.
Anyway, Paul is not 'content' as you say, and yet there is a sense of his 'accepting' his mother as his fate, even though she has died. That makes it very sad and tragic because what is there for him then? Where does that leave him or lead him - just a dead end really.
11-04-2007, 10:23 AM
Virgil

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janine

:lol: Virgil is it me or am I am I in a silly mood tonight? Be sure and read my post to Q.
Hey, V, what is a 'hort' summary? :lol: :lol:...
And if I read it 'electronically'... will it hurt my vision????:cool:

:eek: Should have a disclaimer *read at your own risk*:lol:

Boy you two were in some silly mood that night. How much did you guys drink? :p

Quote:

Originally Posted by Virgil

OK let's start the Lawrence short story "Sun." I will post a hort summary shortly, but if you don't have the story in hardcopy, you can read it electronically here: http://www.geocities.com/andtherewas...rchive/Sun.htm.

It may be short enough to print outright if you don't want to read off the computer screen. Just check print preview for the amount of pages it will consume.

OK, let's get the discussion going. A short summary as I promised. This is the story of Juliet and Maurice, husband and wife who are having some marital problems, and where Juliet is having a sort of nervous breakdown. She is told by doctors to go to a mediterranian island and rest by taking in the sun. The story is mostly of her at the island, slowly giving herself to the sun, and the psychological change that occurs. I think Amalia in a PM to me said it best, this is a peotic story, and yes since the plot is relatively simple, Lawrence hieghtens his language to a poetic level. At the end, Maurice meets up with her at the island, where Juliet is in a quandry about what to do next. I think that is a succinct summary. If anyone has anything to add, pleaswe do so. Otherwise I'm willing to start talking about th openning paragraghs. Perhaps I'll start on that tonight.
11-04-2007, 04:40 PM
Janine

Virgil, ahead of me again? *groan groan*...why am I such a 'slow-poke' these days?
I was hoping to read the story tonight, in full, so I can be in this discussion at the same time as all of you. I was thinking we could get started tomorrow; but I guess if you comment tonight and keep it to the first part, first paragraphs or first page, and don't jump ahead, that would be logical and workable for me.

I did read the first page (online) the other night. I liked it so far very much. Know I will like this one if it is poeticly written. I could sense that from just the very first page; the text flowed so beautifully.

Good summary/introduction, Virgil, and glad you did not tell the ending. I want to be surprised on that note.

Yes, pretty silly the other night - but hey, aren't we here to have some fun, too? Everyone had departed and gone to bed. Late night fatique can encourage silliness. I am getting out my sunglasses for my reading of 'sun' just the same. :lol:

Hey V, don't you like it when I am Bad, but not Mad, and probably Dangerous!??? :lol:

Check out S&L's thread - I actually wrote a pretty sensible post in there today and a long one at that!
11-05-2007, 04:13 PM
Janine

GOOD NEWS!!!!

Hello all - Quite to be marveled at is that me, Janine, the 'slow-poke' reader has read the short story - the whole thing last night - before bed. I felt totally 'sundrenched' and 'aglow', as I faded off to 'dreamland'.

Yes, I liked it very much, Virgil; you choose a good one this time. Good thinking and it was not so long. It was a lovely relaxed fluid poetic read also which I find to be so enjoyable in Lawrence's work. I thought descriptions were simplistic at times and yet behind them was a much deeper meaning. I will be anxious to hear what you have to say about the story and the various elements in it. It reads very much like a fairytale fable or a dream; at least this is what I felt as I was reading it. I thought that towards the end there was also a bit of humor which I have never considered in L's work and yet I have heard some critics say this about various scenes in his writings. It may very well be so, since I now noticed little parts or comments, in the last story we did, that seemed almost laughable or brought a bit of a chuckle as I was reading. Although the story was so serious, I felt at times that the mother was so angry, she was nearly 'commical' in her comments, perhaps to the children, before she found out the true fate of her husband. I would have to go back and review it, and I am not going to now. I am happy to be going onto other stories. But the point is that Lawrence was not a dire person - he did have some humorous times in his own life. He loved to play charades and he loved to imitate people. I have read accounts where he got a roomful of people quite in a roar of laughter. I suppose he was pretty well rounded. If you read his comments on his critics some of them are truly hilarious.
I laughed a number of times towards the end of this story - 'Sun' - when the husband arrived. I thought that scene so humorous.

Another thought stood out to me and that was to recall the role the sun played in the L book I just read, "The Plumed Serpent". I feel in that the 'sun' tranformed, or 'transfigured', Kate, am I correct? We did not get a chance to discuss the book, but maybe someday, in the future. I realise you would have to review it and re-read probably and there are so many books yet to be read and so many other authors that time is of the essense. But we could just loosely discuss. I know you did not feel it to be L's best, and neither did I but it does contain some interesting aspects and some lovely passages.

Interesting that this story 'Sun' begins in NYC apparently and they travel down the Hudson to the sea and across the Atlantic to is it Greece? Somewhere 'Grecian' was mentioned. Do you know when this story was published. It is in the second volume of Short Stories. I wondered if it was written when L spend some brief time in the northern part of NJ; I have read that in a biography recently and really was surprised to hear it. I imagine it was to be in close contact with his publishers. I like the way the text suggested but did not say outright that they were passing the Statue of Liberty:

Quote:

The ship ebbed on, the Hudson seemed interminable. But at last they were round the bend, and there was the poor harvest of lights at the Battery. Liberty flung up her torch in a tantrum. There was the wash of the sea.

Wow, that is simple, but amazing prose. It is appropriate and one feels the 'journey of departing' in one simplistic paragraph. I love the line 'Liberty flung up her torch in a tantrum' and the last line leaves me thinking now on the upcoming journey, across the wide ocean, in the suggestion of this line 'There was the wash of the sea' - marvelous!

I think that it is interesting that she is leaving Liberty to find liberty. Also, in Lawrence's statement 'Liberty' becomes a character in the story, as does later - the 'sun'. Fascinating and quite different than other things I have read by L. In fact, this passage reminded me of the poem by Carl Sandburg - "Fog' where he very simplistically describes 'fog', as though it were a cat. One gets such a sense of the fog infiltrating one's senses. Do you know the poem? I believe it is by Sandburg, but I will check that in some books or online to be certain.

I guess I beat you to your first post, Virgil. Sorry, since I know you were holding up waiting for me to finish reading. Thanks so much for that!Hope you don't mind that I posted these few comments first. I guess I was anxious to make a comment, now that I read the story and it is so fresh in my mind. But do back up a bit if you would, and tell us what you think of the opening passages because I know you will have some really good ideas and comments on that great opening to the story.
11-05-2007, 04:34 PM
Virgil

Glad you like it Janine. I'll post something on it later.
11-05-2007, 05:16 PM
amalia1985

I think that the "sunny" place is in Italy, and I agree with everything Janine said before, so I won't say much. What I have to say is that I was attracted by the ending, Maurice's attitude, and Juliet's closing thoughts, but we will discuss much more about it, so I won't say anything. Virgil, you made a great choice!!!
11-05-2007, 06:24 PM
Janine

Quote:

Originally Posted by amalia1985

I think that the "sunny" place is in Italy, and I agree with everything Janine said before, so I won't say much. What I have to say is that I was attracted by the ending, Maurice's attitude, and Juliet's closing thoughts, but we will discuss much more about it, so I won't say anything. Virgil, you made a great choice!!!

Amalia, I thought it was Italy, too, at first but then things lead me to think of Greece. I thought Italy since Lawrence, called Lorenzo there, lived in Italy a long stretch of time, so he would know it well, and the sun in Italy is something he wrote often about. It is prominent in his travel works. If you have not read them, amalia, you must. They are so intimate and interesting. One feels you are taking the journey at the side of Lawrence, himself. I loved those books!

Yes, please don't jump ahead to the ending, but I just wanted to mention the little bits of humor that were there near the end. Did you think so, as well as I? The 'glancing', etc. I don't want to say anymore, for others who have not read the story yet. Let us try and take this story sequencually, and see how it develops and builds up to a change in Julliet. Don't you agree that that would be less confusing and more logical? Oft times in these threads, we seem to charge right ahead to the ending and the main theme. I would like to mull it all over, since we do have a month or more to discuss it. I know that our best discussion on here and on book threads have had some kind of 'construct' such as this and they were more all-encompassing and engrossing.
11-05-2007, 09:42 PM
Virgil

As to whether it's a Greek or Italian island, I've come to the conclusion that it's an Italian that was Greek in ancient times. Here are a few of the Greek references:

Quote:

Marinina was a woman of Magna Gracia, and had far memories.

and

Quote:

So she remembered that the Greeks had said, a white, unsunned body was fishy and unhealthy.

and

Quote:

Maurice was standing grey-faced, in his grey felt hat and his dark grey suit, at a loss among the vine terraces. He looked pathetically out of place, in that resplendent sunshine and the grace of the old Greek world; like a blot of ink on the pale, sun-glowing slope.

But Marinina is referred to as the "Signora" and I think I caught a couple of other Italianism. Perhaps Lawrence just blurred it togther, but I think there is significance that there are allusions to the ancient Greek world.

Does anyone know what "Magna Gracia" means or refers to?

Oh edit. I found this:

Quote:

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition. 2000.

Magna Graecia

SYLLABICATION: Magna Grae·cia
PRONUNCIATION: grsh
The ancient Greek seaport colonies of southern Italy and Sicily from the eighth to the fourth century b.c. Cumae and Tarantum (modern Taranto) remained significant after the decline of the other colonies.

That settles that. My suspicion was correct.

Interesting the story starts at midnight, where Maurice and Juliet are departing. Yes, Janine it is significant that they are departing from NY, the heart of the modern world. And very interesting observation Amalia that she is departing from the supposed freedom under the Statue of Liberty to the freedom of the island. I found these paragraphs significant from the openning:

Quote:

She remembered how bitterly they had wanted to get away from one another, he
and she. The emotion of parting gave a slight tug at her emotions, but only
caused the iron that had gone into her soul to gore deeper.

So, they looked at their sleeping son, and the father's eyes were wet. But it
is not the wetting of the eyes which counts, it is the deep iron rhythm of
habit, the year-long, life-long habits; the deep-set stroke of power.

And in their two lives the power was hostile, his and hers. Like two engines
running at variance with each other, they shattered one another.

Notice the metaphors and similies: "hot iron into her soul," "iron rythm of habit," and "two engines running at variance." This story is a story of regeneration by abandoning the modern world to repose in the old ancient world. Unfortunately we do not really know what has caused this relationship to reach this crisis, but we can suspect that it has to do with the rituals of the modern world are not conducive a good relationship, in opposition of course the rituals of the old world.
11-05-2007, 11:56 PM
Janine

Quote:

Originally Posted by Virgil

Interesting the story starts at midnight, where Maurice and Juliet are departing. Yes, Janine it is significant that they are departing from NY, the heart of the modern world. And very interesting observation Amalia that she is departing from the supposed freedom under the Statue of Liberty to the freedom of the island. I found these paragraphs significant from the openning:

Quote:

She remembered how bitterly they had wanted to get away from one another, he
and she. The emotion of parting gave a slight tug at her emotions, but only
caused the iron that had gone into her soul to gore deeper.

So, they looked at their sleeping son, and the father's eyes were wet. But it
is not the wetting of the eyes which counts, it is the deep iron rhythm of
habit, the year-long, life-long habits; the deep-set stroke of power.

And in their two lives the power was hostile, his and hers. Like two engines
running at variance with each other, they shattered one another.

Yes, that does seem to be significant that she is leaving at midnight and this starts the story.
Hey, Virgil, am I crazy or what? Didn't I say that, about the 'freedom of the statue and the freedom of the island'. Note:

Quote:

Wow, that is simple, but amazing prose. It is appropriate and one feels the 'journey of departing' in one simplistic paragraph. I love the line 'Liberty flung up her torch in a tantrum' and the last line leaves me thinking now on the upcoming journey, across the wide ocean, in the suggestion of this line 'There was the wash of the sea' - marvelous!

I think that it is interesting that she is leaving Liberty to find liberty. Also, in Lawrence's statement 'Liberty' becomes a character in the story, as does later - the 'sun'. Fascinating and quite different than other things I have read by L. In fact, this passage reminded me of the poem by Carl Sandburg - "Fog' where he very simplistically describes 'fog', as though it were a cat. One gets such a sense of the fog infiltrating one's senses. Do you know the poem? I believe it is by Sandburg, but I will check that in some books or online to be certain.

Quote:

Notice the metaphors and similies: "hot iron into her soul," "iron rythm of habit," and "two engines running at variance." This story is a story of regeneration by abandoning the modern world to repose in the old ancient world. Unfortunately we do not really know what has caused this relationship to reach this crisis, but we can suspect that it has to do with the rituals of the modern world are not conducive a good relationship, in opposition of course the rituals of the old world.

Nice observations. Those are great metaphors/similies! I also like "..,they shattered one another." Yes, so right - leaving the modern world to enter into the ancient one for renewal and regeneration. It does seem the relationship has suffered under the restrictions of society and the industrial world, doesn't it? Good word - rituals. :)
11-06-2007, 07:40 AM
amalia1985

You two made excelelnt remarks, in fact, you answered a lot of my questions regarding the beginning of the story. I would like to ask whether the choice of the heroine's name has any special significance. I would dare to suggest- although, I'm probably wrong, but never mind- that "Juliet" may stand for the "freedom" theme, influenced by Shakepeare's heroine. It is an exaggeration, but I wanted to say that.

I would also want to say that we have, again, the influence of Nature in the beginning. The sea, the sun, notice how black colour is once again significant, "the black night", and I think that the phrase "...the serpent of chaos that has lived forever", is important. I think-and correct if I am wrong-that the serpent is the symbol of wisdom, and temptation, of course. I believe the "Temptation" here is the escape from the suffocating life she has led up to this point.

In the three paragraphs you emntioned, which are some of the most telling in the story, I could see another example of an unhappy marriage, coming from Lawrence. The phrase "...they had wanted to get away from one another..." is very important. Also, the word "power" is something to contmplate on. I think that Maurice wants the power to prevent his wife from the Change, and Juliet would want the chance to lead her own way of living. I think that the contrast in the phrases "All ashore", "Out to Sea", depicts this ''fight", respectively. Maurice' s attitude towards life has to do with the safety of habbit, as I would say, and the "Out to Sea" command emphasises Juliet's desire for the freedom of exploring life.
11-06-2007, 08:18 AM
Virgil

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janine

Hey, Virgil, am I crazy or what? Didn't I say that, about the 'freedom of the statue and the freedom of the island'. Note:

Oh I'm sorry janine. I had read the posts earlier in the day and I guess i mixed up who said what.

Quote:

Originally Posted by amalia1985

You two made excelelnt remarks, in fact, you answered a lot of my questions regarding the beginning of the story. I would like to ask whether the choice of the heroine's name has any special significance. I would dare to suggest- although, I'm probably wrong, but never mind- that "Juliet" may stand for the "freedom" theme, influenced by Shakepeare's heroine. It is an exaggeration, but I wanted to say that.

Very good Amalia. I think you're right. That is a play where sun and moon and light and dark are in constant play. You reminded me of this famous line from the play: "But soft! What light through yonder window breaks? It is the east and Juliet is the sun."

Quote:

I would also want to say that we have, again, the influence of Nature in the beginning. The sea, the sun, notice how black colour is once again significant, "the black night", and I think that the phrase "...the serpent of chaos that has lived forever", is important. I think-and correct if I am wrong-that the serpent is the symbol of wisdom, and temptation, of course. I believe the "Temptation" here is the escape from the suffocating life she has led up to this point.

I have to say that the serpent confuses me. Yes there is that metaphor of the serpent at the beginning, but there is also the snake that shows up in part II I think that threatens the boy. I'm not sure what to make of it. But certainly Lawrence was after something. Wisdom and temptation is certainly one part of the symbol, I agree. I can't help but feel that this is a rather complex symbol, multifaceted. Perhaps we can figure it out by the end of our discussion of this story. The snake is a creature that likes to sit in the sun.

Quote:

In the three paragraphs you emntioned, which are some of the most telling in the story, I could see another example of an unhappy marriage, coming from Lawrence. The phrase "...they had wanted to get away from one another..." is very important. Also, the word "power" is something to contmplate on. I think that Maurice wants the power to prevent his wife from the Change, and Juliet would want the chance to lead her own way of living. I think that the contrast in the phrases "All ashore", "Out to Sea", depicts this ''fight", respectively. Maurice' s attitude towards life has to do with the safety of habbit, as I would say, and the "Out to Sea" command emphasises Juliet's desire for the freedom of exploring life.

Good points on power. Juliet seems to have all the power in this story, which is quite different from most of Lawrence's stories. Yes, on Maurice's safety of habit, but Juliet goes on to form another habit. The bulk of the story is Juliet's habit of sitting in the sun. So it's not so much habit, but the type of habit.

You know on reconsideration I take back my statement that Lawrence doesn't write stories with women having power. But usually women having power is not a good thing in a Lawrence story. (Sorry, he would definitely be considered a male chauvinist by today's standards.) But here it is a good thing. Juliet (and by suggestion even Marianina) have established what Lawrence would consider a wholesome life. Let me also prefigure what I'll argue later in that there is a male power in this story that orients that wholesome life, and it's not Maurice, but the sun as male diety. But that's for later discussion. ;)
11-06-2007, 04:55 PM
Janine

Quote:

Originally Posted by Virgil

Oh I'm sorry janine. I had read the posts earlier in the day and I guess i mixed up who said what.

Oh...ok....you are forgiven...:) Anyway, Amalia might have said it too...we are like twins sometimes....haha;) right, A?

Quote:

Very good Amalia. I think you're right. That is a play where sun and moon and light and dark are in constant play. You reminded me of this famous line from the play: "But soft! What light through yonder window breaks? It is the east and Juliet is the sun."

Funny, Amalia and I think the same way. I had noticed the significance of the name 'Juliet', as well, and wondered about it relating to Shakespeare's heroine. I think this quote is terrific and makes this connection so evident and clear now to us all. I agree with the idea and the aspects of the contrasts of 'dark and light' and 'shadow and sunlight' and the 'moon and the sun'...there are many more I am sure, throughout the story. Very significant. Imagery is everything to Lawrence. He paints with words exquisitely.

This story also reminds me so of "The Plumed Serpent" - the sunlight plays such a huge part in that story. I think this all ties in with the themes presented in that book - the sun worship and the various other symbolic ritualistic meanings; also the moon. I don't know exactly the connection, but it is suggesting this to me very strongly. Was it written around the same time period, do you know, V?

Quote:

I have to say that the serpent confuses me. Yes there is that metaphor of the serpent at the beginning, but there is also the snake that shows up in part II I think that threatens the boy. I'm not sure what to make of it. But certainly Lawrence was after something. Wisdom and temptation is certainly one part of the symbol, I agree. I can't help but feel that this is a rather complex symbol, multifaceted. Perhaps we can figure it out by the end of our discussion of this story. The snake is a creature that likes to sit in the sun.

Right away I thought of a poem L wrote about a 'snake' or 'serpent' in the grass. I will look it up and post later. I also thought of "The Plumed Serpent", as well, again in the tribal mystical sense of the way it is presented in that book. So true that the sun is serpent-like and masters Juliet in the beginning of the story. It seems that she is filled with it's warm and sexuality and the full spirit of the sun. She gives herself over to the sun's power and only then does she relax and become her true self. She becomes complete and sensual after bathing in the sun and absorbing it's power and warmth. It is all quite complex, I believe, and as you said - mulifaceted. It all relays to me this whole unique concept L had in his later novels; and as you know, some were 'way out' and pretty extreme. Their meanings are not easily comprehended or fully understood. I keep on trying to understand it all though which makes it more fascinating.

Hey, Virgil, maybe you need to go back and read your thesis again and fill us in. You know more about "Transfiguration" in L's work than we all do....haha...what do yo say?

Quote:

Good points on power. Juliet seems to have all the power in this story, which is quite different from most of Lawrence's stories. Yes, on Maurice's safety of habit, but Juliet goes on to form another habit. The bulk of the story is Juliet's habit of sitting in the sun. So it's not so much habit, but the type of habit.

I am thinking of' Lady Chatterly' as well. I think she had some power and some strength as a woman, to confront her husband, as well as Juliet does. I was thinking of Connie, as I read this book. She, too, goes through a whole transformation. I see L's mother as a powerful force in "Sons and Lovers" - don't you and I see her as a strong woman - although it was not necessarily good for Paul in the end. I don't usually feel as though L is all for the men either. I think in his work there is a definite 'war of the sexes' in some sense of the phrase. There is always some sort of struggle between man and woman.

Quote:

You know on reconsideration I take back my statement that Lawrence doesn't write stories with women having power. But usually women having power is not a good thing in a Lawrence story. (Sorry, he would definitely be considered a male chauvinist by today's standards.) But here it is a good thing. Juliet (and by suggestion even Marianina) have established what Lawrence would consider a wholesome life. Let me also prefigure what I'll argue later in that there is a male power in this story that orients that wholesome life, and it's not Maurice, but the sun as male diety. But that's for later discussion. ;)

Oops ...I see you took back your statement. Oh well, I wrote a few of my own thoughts above. Also is not the man at the end of the story - the one having a picnic with wine outside with his wife representative, in Juliet's eyes, as a sort of sun-god to be longed for? In some sense the sun is now embodied in a real life breathing blood male. I felt that was interesting. I guess I acquired this idea from the book "The Plumed Serpent" since I recently finished that novel. Amalia, maybe you should read it. I think you would see things in it that I did not even interpret - you are so keen and perceptive.
11-06-2007, 09:32 PM
Virgil

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janine

This story also reminds me so of "The Plumed Serpent" - the sunlight plays such a huge part in that story. I think this all ties in with the themes presented in that book - the sun worship and the various other symbolic ritualistic meanings; also the moon. I don't know exactly the connection, but it is suggesting this to me very strongly. Was it written around the same time period, do you know, V?

Right away I thought of a poem L wrote about a 'snake' or 'serpent' in the grass. I will look it up and post later. I also thought of "The Plumed Serpent", as well, again in the tribal mystical sense of the way it is presented in that book. So true that the sun is serpent-like and masters Juliet in the beginning of the story. It seems that she is filled with it's warm and sexuality and the full spirit of the sun. She gives herself over to the sun's power and only then does she relax and become her true self. She becomes complete and sensual after bathing in the sun and absorbing it's power and warmth. It is all quite complex, I believe, and as you said - mulifaceted. It all relays to me this whole unique concept L had in his later novels; and as you know, some were 'way out' and pretty extreme. Their meanings are not easily comprehended or fully understood. I keep on trying to understand it all though which makes it more fascinating.

Hey, Virgil, maybe you need to go back and read your thesis again and fill us in. You know more about "Transfiguration" in L's work than we all do....haha...what do yo say?

Just read a few pages of my thesis, looking for what my ideas were back then. Let me say that this story, "Sun", was written just about immediately after The Plumed Serpent, sometime in 1925. I bet that the imaginative spark for the story occured because he was ill with TB and had to return to Europe. Janine can you look up the details of when the story was written, whether in Eurpoe or while in the US? You have that book on Lawrence's calandar. Also he was having many marital problems with Frieda at this time, so one can see how Lawrence projects himself into Juliet: the trip back to Europe, the return to Italy, the recooping from illness.

Quote:

So true that the sun is serpent-like and masters Juliet in the beginning of the story. It seems that she is filled with it's warm and sexuality and the full spirit of the sun.

That is an interesting statement, and it may fit, but where do you see that the sun is serpent like?

Quote:

I am thinking of' Lady Chatterly' as well. I think she had some power and some strength as a woman, to confront her husband, as well as Juliet does. I was thinking of Connie, as I read this book. She, too, goes through a whole transformation.

Yes, over her husband, and how natural was that relationship? And isn't the process of the story her giving up her will to Mellors?
11-07-2007, 03:38 PM
Janine

:lol:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Virgil

Just read a few pages of my thesis, looking for what my ideas were back then. Let me say that this story, "Sun", was written just about immediately after The Plumed Serpent, sometime in 1925. I bet that the imaginative spark for the story occured because he was ill with TB and had to return to Europe. Janine can you look up the details of when the story was written, whether in Eurpoe or while in the US? You have that book on Lawrence's calandar. Also he was having many marital problems with Frieda at this time, so one can see how Lawrence projects himself into Juliet: the trip back to Europe, the return to Italy, the recooping from illness.

Here is what I dug up in a book by Sagar; D.H.Lawrence, "A Calender of his Works"...hummm very nice book and quite informative...:)

Quote:

December 1925 At Villa Bernarda, Spotorno, Italy.

*12 Dec. To Hon. Dorthy Brett: I had the typing...I send you 'Sun'....I'm still struggling with my 'Gay Ghosts'. Alas and a thousand times alack, it's growing long --too long. Damn it! Even 'Sun' is a bit too long [Irvine 2,59]. The typing was probably 'Smile', which Lawrence sent to Nacny Pearn a week later. It was published in New Massesm June 1926 [Finney 3].

'Sun' exists in two versions. Lawrence's own comments suggest that his original story was expurgated for publication in New Coterie, autumn 1926, and the Archer Sun [A35a] and 'The Woman Who Rode Away' [A41] and was not printed in its original form until the Black Sun Press edition in October 1928 [A35b]. On 29 April 1928 lawrence was to write to Harry Crosby: 'Sun is the final MS, and I wish the story had been printed as it stands there, really complete [Huxley 730]. It seems more likely, however, that lawrence was practising a little mild deception on Harry Crosby, and that the original MS corresponded to the first purblished version, and was subsequently burned by Lawrence. See April 1928.
'Gay Ghosts' became 'Ghost of Silence', and, finally, 'Glad Ghosts'.

I thought that whole entry was really interesting from several standpoints. Interesting that the story had several versions, and what Lawrence said about it, being too long.
Yes, you are correct, Virgil, in assuming Lawrence was back in Italy, for convalesent purposes, no doubt. I think after leaving Mexico and New Mexico (he was then diagnosed positively with the TB) he came back to Italy to seek a more restorative environment, in hopes of reviving and recovering his health. This entry above was 1925, so that he lived another 5 yrs and in that time he wrote a number of notable things such as "The Escaped **** (The Man Who Died) and LCL and then the Travel novels. God knows what else - tons of stuff in those 5 yrs. Amazing...and you thought him near death when writing this story....not quite; L was not going to give in to his illness. One his 40th birthday he wrote this entry:

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January 1926 At Villa Bernardo, Spotorno.

SUMMARY No, no! I'm forty, and I want, in a good sense, to enjoy my life. Saying my say and seeing other people sup it up doesn't amount to a hill o'beans, as far as I go. I want to waste no time over it. That's why I have an agent. I want my own life to live [Moore 876]. Lawrence wrote The Virgin and the Gypsy [A54], 'Mediterranean in January' and 'Beyond the Rockies' [C139 and CP]

Amazing to think those were the words of someone as ill as Lawrence was.

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That is an interesting statement, and it may fit, but where do you see that the sun is serpent like?

Ok, I think maybe you are right and there is no direct reference to the sun as a serpent. I probably was putting the thoughts of the sun together with what I had read in "The Plumed Serpent"...there I believe the sun is referred to at times serpent like or as a serpent. I did recall in this story the beginning with the line "At that moment the sea seemed to heave like the serpent of chaos, that has lived for ever." - therefore I was thinking of Lawrence's reference to things of the past and rituals and traditions, such as with the American Indians in Mexico, and the connection to their manliness and their virility and their sun serpent-like power, because then later, in "Sun" is this part, when Julliet wakes in the morning:

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Again a morning when the sun lifted himself naked and molten, sparkling over the seas rim. The house faced south-west. Juliet lay in her bed and watched him rise. It was as if she had never seen the sun rise before. She had never seen the naked sun stand up pure upon the sea-line, shaking the night off himself.

Then a little later are these passages:

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She was thinking inside herself, of the sun in his splendour, and her mating with him. Her life was now a whle ritual.She lay always awake, before dawn, watching for the sea's edge. Her joy was when he rose all molten in his nakedness, and threw off blue-white fire, into the tender heaven.
But sometimes he came ruddy, like a big, shy creature. And sometimes slow and crimson red, with a look of anger slowly pushing and shouldering. Sometimes again she could not see him, only the level cloud threw down gold and scarlet from above, as he moved behind the wall.

Wow, that whole passage and the one before is certainly sensual and sexually suggestive, don't you think? Also, I was putting two and two together ,when I came up with this analogy with the snake, which is a deity symbol in Mexico and other places in the world - didn't King Tut's mask have a serpent at the top showing royalty? Ok, so now read the snake passage:

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The snake had sunk down, and was reaching away from the coils in which it had been basking asleep, and slowly was easing it's long, gold-brown body into the rocks, with slow curves.......

Hmmm, very suggestive of the male sexual organ/the woman as the 'body of the rocks'. Snakes are usually phallic symbols; I am sure that L was well aware of this fact. Getting all of this down, Q?
then this:

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The curious soothing power of the sun filled her, filled the whole place like a charm, and the snake was part of the place, along with her and the child.

This part suggests the 'interconnectability' of all things in nature, cosmos; so that lead me to think and compare passages of the 'sun' and of the 'snake' and I can see similarities in each passage, can you see them? Also, Lawrence uses here the word 'like a charm'....suggesting strongly snake charmers or myticism in my mind. snakes as symbols in various 'sun' worshipping cultures.

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Yes, over her husband, and how natural was that relationship? And isn't the process of the story her giving up her will to Mellors?

Well, that is to be debated, probably more so when we read the novel LCL. I would say for now that is a hard question to definitively answer. Is she really giving over to Mellors or is she freeing herself and meeting him in the middle. I am not so sure he is being dominent as far as Connie is concerned. Now who is to know exacly what will happen with Julliet and her husband. He, too, might be transfigured by the sun. He said he would try it in the nude - wow, he is being rather co-operative I would say for such a 'stuffed-shirt'. So maybe he will realize the restorative qualities of basking in the sun and also become part of the snake, woman, child scene. The story is open-ended and so one can draw their own conclusion to how it will go from here on in. It all depends on ones outlook and how you view the ending. Is it sad or is it actually hopeful?

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