The Manufacture of Mozart

Yanni,

We might compare this to a sweet shop (perhaps better known to our transatlantic cousins as a 'candy store') which has been invaded by children who have pulled all the chocolates, candies, and other nice things out of their boxes. So that in spite of the confusion of the scene caused by various contributors, (all welcomed), is its title. A thread whose title you pay lip service to but have never tasted for yourself.

It remains my view (and I think others agree) that the role of numerous composers (including G. Cocchi, Philidor and others) was significant in 18th century music, overlapping with the manufacture of Mozart. And, in many cases in a major way. But, just as we have great paintings which were once attributed to famous painters but now belong to the 'school of Reubens or van Dyke, or the 'school of Raphael' etc. so also we have a network of musical composers surrounding what can describe as the musical manufacture of Mozart. But nobody (with the exception of Yanni) has said all these people were all the same person.

And so, you see, I am more keen to give G. Cocchi his proper place in the history of music than you might suppose. It's simply that I do not wish to replace one pagan icon with another.

I attach a famous song from the 1940's which a friend sent to me the other day. Nice stuff, yes ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVdoZNxtL8k

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Originally Posted by yanni

Dedicated as you are to the manufacture of Mozart subject you have forgotten to add any research results and conclusions in this thread, any input, beyond the title!


:hand:

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by ERS

And Cocchi also had a chess player alias? My, our good Italian appears to have had more identities than there are Chins in the Beijing White Pages…
:lol: :lol:

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For a hornblower with a lawyer flare, you are obviously confused:

Composer -chess player Rousseau's chess match with David Hume is legendary already and I have no doubt that Gioachino Cocchi and general Washington enjoyed the game too.

Jefferson certainly did (study Philidor and joined his chess society while in Paris) but there is no record of ever playing with him.

http://www.chess.com/article/view/us...ents-and-chess

:smilielol5:

..then ask for carbon credits!

Indeed this tragedie lyrique is staged in a candy store emptied, during our lifetime, by greedy children but this is no reason for playing dead, rabbit or chicken, Robert, otherwise we'll all "go bananas":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3ZYP...eature=related

:hand:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Musicology

Yanni,

We might compare this to a sweet shop (perhaps better known to our transatlantic cousins as a 'candy store') which has been invaded by children who have pulled all the chocolates, candies, and other nice things out of their boxes. So that in spite of the confusion of the scene caused by various contributors, (all welcomed), is its title. A thread whose title you pay lip service to but have never tasted for yourself.

It remains my view (and I think others agree) that the role of numerous composers (including G. Cocchi, Philidor and others) was significant in 18th century music, overlapping with the manufacture of Mozart. And, in many cases in a major way. But, just as we have great paintings which were once attributed to famous painters but now belong to the 'school of Reubens or van Dyke, or the 'school of Raphael' etc. so also we have a network of musical composers surrounding what can describe as the musical manufacture of Mozart. But nobody (with the exception of Yanni) has said all these people were all the same person.

And so, you see, I am more keen to give G. Cocchi his proper place in the history of music than you might suppose. It's simply that I do not wish to replace one pagan icon with another.

I attach a famous song from the 1940's which a friend sent to me the other day. Nice stuff, yes ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVdoZNxtL8k

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Yanni,

Questioning your aliases is not difficult. A man plays chess and this is seen as proof that he is another person. Well, here is the entry in the 'Grove' Dictionary of Music and Musicians on Philidor. It refers to the following -

As a page-boy in the royal chapel at Versailles, he (Philidor) received a good musical education with André Campra, the maître de chapelle; he also learnt the favourite pastime of the musicians, chess.

So there were lots of chess-playing musicians of that time. And not just a few. It was the favourite pastime of musicians of the time !

Also -

From 1740 Philidor lived in Paris, performing, teaching and, in the family tradition, copying music. He also assisted Rousseau, in an unknown manner, with Les muses galantes. His skill at chess marked him out earlier than his musical gifts. At the Café de la Régence he came into contact with many of the brightest minds of the time, including Diderot who was to call him, in Le neveu de Rameau, ‘Philidor le subtil’.

Philidor was best known as a professional chess player. Rousseau was not best known as a chess player. Was he ? Nor was Grimm, or any other of the aliases you seem to determined to force on Cocchi and now on Philidor. Who, themselves, may well have played chess. And why not ?

I myself play chess, as does half of the world, I suppose. Are we candidates for your theory ?

Far more interesting and relevant is Philidor was undoubtedly associated with the early years of the 'Enlightenment'. Which included Encyclopaedists such as Diderot, and musical contacts such as the Jesuit educated Rameau and others. And that the early musical stage works attributed to Mozart definitely came from this network spread across Europe of which Philidor was certainly a part. As was Cocchi. But none of this proves Rousseau was Philidor or anyone else. The evidence continues to suggest we are describing a huge fraternal network who spanned most of the Holy Roman Empire and beyond. Who, together, were agents of the emerging 'Englightenment' philosophy. And amongst whose musical achievements was music which was attributed to a certain W.A. Mozart, amongst others. This process did not involve one talented composer or even several. But many composers, music editors, publishers, and members of the same fraternities. Including your G. Cocchi, Philidor and others.

But if you have evidence which suggests differently I'm always happy to see it.

Here is a spring planting song (for those planting potatoes, I mean) -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDIpkz6DOi8

Quote:

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Originally Posted by yanni

For a hornblower with a lawyer flare, you are obviously confused:

Composer -chess player Rousseau's chess match with David Hume is legendary already and I have no doubt that Gioachino Cocchi and general Washington enjoyed the game too.

:smilielol5:

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How many of your numerous chess playing-musicians were "connected" enough to successfully stage operas in Paris 1760-1790 and regularly visit London as well, do you know?

:smilielol5:

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Originally Posted by Musicology

Yanni,

Questioning your aliases is not difficult. A man plays chess and this is seen as proof that he is another person. Well, here is the entry in the 'Grove' Dictionary of Music and Musicians on Philidor. It refers to the following -

As a page-boy in the royal chapel at Versailles, he (Philidor) received a good musical education with André Campra, the maître de chapelle; he also learnt the favourite pastime of the musicians, chess.

So there were lots of chess-playing musicians of that time. And not just a few. It was the favourite pastime of musicians of the time !

Also -

From 1740 Philidor lived in Paris, performing, teaching and, in the family tradition, copying music. He also assisted Rousseau, in an unknown manner, with Les muses galantes. His skill at chess marked him out earlier than his musical gifts. At the Café de la Régence he came into contact with many of the brightest minds of the time, including Diderot who was to call him, in Le neveu de Rameau, ‘Philidor le subtil’.

Philidor was best known as a professional chess player. Rousseau was not best known as a chess player. Was he ? Nor was Grimm, or any other of the aliases you seem to determined to force on Cocchi and now on Philidor. Who, themselves, may well have played chess. And why not ?

I myself play chess, as does half of the world, I suppose. Are we candidates for your theory ?

Far more interesting and relevant is Philidor was undoubtedly associated with the early years of the 'Enlightenment'. Which included Encyclopaedists such as Diderot, and musical contacts such as the Jesuit educated Rameau and others. And that the early musical stage works attributed to Mozart definitely came from this network spread across Europe of which Philidor was certainly a part. As was Cocchi. But none of this proves Rousseau was Philidor or anyone else. The evidence continues to suggest we are describing a huge fraternal network who spanned most of the Holy Roman Empire and beyond. Who, together, were agents of the emerging 'Englightenment' philosophy. And amongst whose musical achievements was music which was attributed to a certain W.A. Mozart, amongst others. This process did not involve one talented composer or even several. But many composers, music editors, publishers, and members of the same fraternities. Including your G. Cocchi, Philidor and others.

But if you have evidence which suggests differently I'm always happy to see it.

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Yanni,

Chess was very widely played in the 18th century. By composers, artists, teachers, and by the general society. There were no televisions, DVD's, or other electronic distractions.

Amongst the modern composers Prokofiev was a noted chess player, all of his adult life.

But, to get to your question, we might ask -

Which visiting composers of the period 1760-90 to London did NOT play chess ? It may be a smaller list than those who were chess players. :smilielol5:

My question was quite specific and so was the absence of your answer!

"Philidor" was a rare, very "in", opera composer in Paris until he "associated" himself with "Gluck" in "their" Ernelinda.

Enjoy your chicken broth!

:hand:

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Originally Posted by Robert Newman, uh I mean ERS

Robert’s work and research have already established - in my mind – “reasonable doubt” about the accuracy – and truthfulness - of what we have been told about this “Wunderkind”.

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:frown2:

Robert, have you no shame?

Regards,

Istvan

You are nothing if not motivated, gentlemen. Some might suggest monomaniacal... but I'll not go further in that direction... except to suggest that such might apply better to a theme on Berlioz. The problem with the aliases is that they lack any originality. Now on another literature site that I once frequented there was one member who wrote under several aliases... all of whom had a predilection for Baudelaire, Lautreamont, Rimbaud, Celine, and the Marquis de Sade. One of the more memorable aliases was a gorgeous, 21-year old kick-boxing nymphomaniac from Australia who just happened to have a deep abiding passion for S&M and dark French literature. Certainly the author's ideal. A woman with a cute accent who could hurt him on many levels while reciting favorite passages from Les Fleurs du Mal. Regardless... carry on with your experiments in Borgesian fictions, Gentlemen!:biggrinjester:

Robert, have you no shame?

Regards,

Istvan

Yes... it is a bit self-serving as fiction. Perhaps a persona who challenges Robert's monomaniacal theories with an equally inventive alternative...? Or at least a kick-boxing nymphomaniac with an accent and a penchant for Poe.

Nice try Babbalanja,

This thread is on the manufacture of Mozart. You clearly do not like the way it is going. So you attribute to me the posts of others. Why not contribute on the subject of this thread ? Which, as you see, is continually being diverted by irrelevancies.

As for the contents of other posters on this thread, why not write to them yourself and spare us anything except your posts on the subject of W.A. Mozart.

You don't have any, do you ? That becomes more and more obvious.

Best wishes

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Babbalanja

:frown2:

Robert, have you no shame?

Regards,

Istvan

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And there the truth was told 'em...
And ev'ry morning went to prayer,
And then began disputing,
Till oppositions silenced were,
By arguments refuting.
Now politicians of all kinds,
Who are not yet decided,
May see how Yankees speak their minds,
And yet are not divided.
So here I end my Fed'ral song,
Composed of thirteen verses;
May agriculture flourish long
And commerce fill our purses!

:Angel_anim:

Yanni,

Since this thread is on 'The Manufacture of Mozart' I will decline your offer to discuss aliases of Philidor and Cocchi. And will remain, as usual, dedicated to the subject of this thread. Which, believe it or not is, 'The Manufacture of Mozart'.

Does this make sense to you ?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by yanni

My question was quite specific and so was the absence of your answer!

"Philidor" was a rare, very "in", opera composer in Paris until he "associated" himself with "Gluck" in "their" Ernelinda.

Enjoy your chicken broth!

:hand:

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Yanni,

Since this thread is on 'The Manufacture of Mozart' I will decline your offer to discuss aliases of Philidor and Cocchi. And will remain, as usual, dedicated to the subject of this thread. Which, believe it or not is, 'The Manufacture of Mozart'.

Does this make sense to you ?

Do feel free to open a thread on 'Cocchi', or 'Philidor', or on 18th century chess players.

Regards

Quote:

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Originally Posted by yanni

My question was quite specific and so was the absence of your answer!

"Philidor" was a rare, very "in", opera composer in Paris until he "associated" himself with "Gluck" in "their" Ernelinda.

Enjoy your chicken broth!

:hand:

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OK!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3stjchqqAA