Printable View
We'll then, paste it into the address box above. I agree they are active verbs. And yes I do think he achieves his quest, but not in the way same way as you think. The resignation comes from the form he must take to be immortalized in this world.Quote:
I'm sorry, it won't let me open the link. But those are active verbs in the third stanza. I just don't see the resignation. I read it as he achieving his quest.
OK, I was able to open it. It's a Dali painting on time. So?Quote:
Originally Posted by ktd222
To quote Morrissey, “The passing of time and all of its sickening crimes”.Quote:
Originally Posted by “jackyyyy”
I didn’t know the word ‘Chiasmatic’, either. Having looked it up, I still don’t understand what it means in relation to the poem. I think the line ‘whatever is begotten, born, and dies’ is proleptic of the final line, which I take simply to refer to the past, present and future – the realm of time and change, which is the only place we exist. So the irony is that his wish to escape time by becoming a golden bird, a supreme work of art, if granted, means that he will be singing about the very things he had supposedly gotten away from. And look who his audience is. Perhaps that’s the fate of all art – to become some object no longer alive in the human sense, dispensing observations on being alive, to some elite. I suppose that’s sort of what has happened to Yeats.
Seems, madam! nay it is; I know not 'seems.' You are all admiring the cut and quality of the Emperor’s new clothes. The idea of Yeats having written something absurd won’t strike you as quite so extreme if you read his guff about history as the movement of gyres in A Vision. Imagine if TS Eliot had put all his intellectual energy into astrology and then dropped acid. There is an unfeasibly sensible website dedicated to this nonsense. It has a nice animation of a ‘widening gyre’, though:Quote:
Originally Posted by “Petrarch’s Love”
http://www.yeatsvision.com/
Give me the Yeats who wrote The Scholars and these lines any day:
“I might have thrown poor words away
And been content to live.”
“And maybe what they say is true
Of war and war's alarms,
But O that I were young again
And held her in my arms!”
This is where we differ. I’m not really interested in abstract, rarefied discussions about the power of art. I like my art with snot and blood on it. To quote from another of his poems,Quote:
Originally Posted by “Petrarch’s Love”
”only an aching heart
Conceives a changeless work of art.”
“In moderation placing all my glory,Quote:
Originally Posted by “Petrarch’s Love”
While Tories call me Whig, and Whigs a Tory.”
Alexander Pope The First Satire of the Second
Book of Horace, Imitated
So there’s me on the one side as a curmudgeonly Swift, you as Pope the moderate and…does this mean Virgil is Gay?
ktd222’s comments are an interesting reading of the poem. “The resignation comes from the form he must take to be immortalized in this world,” suggests that Yeats is aware of the absurdity of achieving immortality in the way he describes. The point of the Dali link is more in the bit of accompanying text than in the painting itself; “that which stands still stagnates”. Without the passing of time, there is no decay but no growth either, so no life. Both words are significant in ‘dying generations’.Quote:
Originally Posted by “Virgil”
What poem is that from, BTW?Quote:
Originally Posted by The Unnamable
Hey, I think that's the second time in a week you questioned my sexual orientation. :lol: Seriously, though, to my disgrace I am not familiar with the eighteen century poets. A class on them seems to have eluded me. I kind of get your references to Swift and Pope, but I'm not familiar with Gay.Quote:
So there’s me on the one side as a curmudgeonly Swift, you as Pope the moderate and…does this mean Virgil is Gay?
Perhaps it is more of a wish than something he really expects. But the third stanza is an elaborate description of his transfiguration, and the fourth stanza he does talk of hammering his post life form into the golden bird. And I want to emphasize again, post life form. I still don't see the resignation.Quote:
ktd222’s comments are an interesting reading of the poem. “The resignation comes from the form he must take to be immortalized in this world,” suggests that Yeats is aware of the absurdity of achieving immortality in the way he describes. The point of the Dali link is more in the bit of accompanying text than in the painting itself; “that which stands still stagnates”. Without the passing of time, there is no decay but no growth either, so no life. Both words are significant in ‘dying generations’
Now I would like to ask the million dollar question that I have a hard time answering: Why is that "no country for old men?"
Whatever is begotten, born, and dies.
Of what is past, or passing, or to come.
Notice the rythme here.
And therefore I have sailed the seas and come
To the holy city of Byzantium.
This only means he has past thus far through life. It does not mean he has 'searched' the seas.... for something. He was resigned to his fate before he started the first Stanza.
Not until the fourth stanza does he go up a tone with renewed resolve...
Once out of nature I shall never take
My bodily form from any natural thing,
But such a form as Grecian goldsmiths make
But such a form 'as'....
He is not saying he would be a Grecian goldsmith piece/ornament. He is saying he would be 'as'.
Its not alive in any sense, its an artifact. This is where he is mocking the blissful ignorant of Byzantium, inclusive the O sages, and why he 'pretends' himself to sit on a bough, to point it out to Lord and Ladies, which is exactly what art does, sitting in it's art galleries as a reminder. Nihilism means zero, you are gone, whoosh. I think this is his message, might as well be a trinket on the wall. When I think about it, thats a lot of paint for a little message, a quickie.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Unnamable
Old people don't look good hanging around discos.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Quote:
I don't know what "chiasmatic" means but it sounds great!
Sorry guys, I properly meant "chiastic," the adjective for "chiasmus." I usually use "chiastic," in fact I have no idea whatsoever where "chiasmatic" came from. Not sure where my brain was. :brickwall Chiasmatic has sometimes been used in this way, but evidently not for at least a century, and (as I found upon looking it up in the OED) is evidently usually used as some sort of medical term. Perhaps it's a sign I've been studying too hard when I'm starting to make up words--at least this one turned out to actually be a word. :lol: Well, lesson learned not to post absentmindedly while trying to relax the brain after a three hour poetics workshop with Derek Attridge (literary critic) encompassing everything from the new critics to the deconstructionists. :nod:Quote:
I didn’t know the word ‘Chiasmatic’, either. Having looked it up, I still don’t understand what it means in relation to the poem.
Anyway, I meant that I had seen the two lines as chiastic, in that I saw the elements in the first line--"begotten," "born," and "dies"--reversed in the final line with "past" corresponding to death, "passing" corresponding to birth into life, and "to come" corresponding with "begotten." Of course, after your justifiable confusion over my lamentable word choice made me look at these lines again, I realized that they could also be taken as much more straightforward parallelism, with "begotten" being what is past, birth, what is passing, and death what is to come. I suppose it's all a question of how you view the life cycle and how much you've allowed yourself to have been compelled by Yeats' artistic notion of rebirth.
Lord, I was out of it when I posted. How could I have applied such an unseemly word as "seems" to The Unnamable?! Did I ever say Yeats couldn't write anything absurd? I am certain that he did so on more than one occasion. I only meant that in my opinion he is not being quite as absurd in this particular piece as you definitely (not seemingly) think he is. I'm not admiring the gold embroidery on the emperor's non-existent sleeve, but it looks to me as though he's still got on some boxers and an undershirt. (If you want to picture him naked that's your business).Quote:
Seems, madam! nay it is; I know not 'seems.' You are all admiring the cut and quality of the Emperor’s new clothes. The idea of Yeats having written something absurd won’t strike you as quite so extreme if you read his guff about history as the movement of gyres in A Vision.
:lol: Thanks Unnamable. I think this is the first time anyone's made me the object of a quote from a Pope satire, and I've always liked this one. I'm honored. I'll let Virgil defend himself against this shocking innuendo that he wrote the Beggar's Opera. (Oh, I just saw Virg.'s post. Here's a link to the Wiki. info on John Gay, in case you're interested: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Gay)Quote:
“In moderation placing all my glory,
While Tories call me Whig, and Whigs a Tory.”
Alexander Pope The First Satire of the Second
Book of Horace, Imitated
So there’s me on the one side as a curmudgeonly Swift, you as Pope the moderate and…does this mean Virgil is Gay?
Meditations In Time Of Civil War (section 3, My Table). The poem also contains the line, “Yet if no change appears/ No moon;”Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
John Gay was a friend of Pope and Swift. His most famous work was The Beggar’s Opera:Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
“Mackie was not Brecht’s original creation. Even the idea of The Threepenny Opera was not his, but was suggested to him in 1928 by Elisabeth Hauptmann, one of the more enduring of his throng of willing women. With her knowledge of English, she had been searching through material for him to use, and had come across The Beggar’s Opera, John Gay’s hugely successful 1728 parody of Italian opera, made by taking popular songs of the day and singing them to new satirical texts, lampooning politicians and opera singers alike. Gay’s central figure, the highwayman Macheath, became Mackie Messer, or Mack the Knife.”
I agree with Jackyyy about why “That is no country…”. He simply feels that the country he is leaving is unsuitable for the aged – it’s teeming with life and full of young people enjoying themselves.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
No need to be self-critical. I can only ever be thankful when someone sets me up with an opportunity to recite some of Hamlet’s lines. I still can’t believe that I’ll never tread the boards as the Dane. :( And I look so good in black doublet and hose.Quote:
Originally Posted by Petrarch's Love
Thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Unnamable
Oh, that is very interesting. I never knew any of that.Quote:
John Gay was a friend of Pope and Swift. His most famous work was The Beggar’s Opera:
“Mackie was not Brecht’s original creation. Even the idea of The Threepenny Opera was not his, but was suggested to him in 1928 by Elisabeth Hauptmann, one of the more enduring of his throng of willing women. With her knowledge of English, she had been searching through material for him to use, and had come across The Beggar’s Opera, John Gay’s hugely successful 1728 parody of Italian opera, made by taking popular songs of the day and singing them to new satirical texts, lampooning politicians and opera singers alike. Gay’s central figure, the highwayman Macheath, became Mackie Messer, or Mack the Knife.”
Oh, you guys are saying the country is not Byzantium, but where he's coming from? I've always assumed Byzantium, but I think you're right. I've misread that all these years.Quote:
I agree with Jackyyy about why “That is no country…”. He simply feels that the country he is leaving is unsuitable for the aged – it’s teeming with life and full of young people enjoying themselves.
:lol: Now there's a performance I'd love to see.Quote:
I still can’t believe that I’ll never tread the boards as the Dane. And I look so good in black doublet and hose.
Quote:
the country he is leaving is unsuitable for the aged – it’s teeming with life and full of young people enjoying themselves.
The country he is leaving is 'his younger age', it was never Byzantium. Byzantium is 'this' point in time or 'this' condition and state.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
It’s Monday here and I haven’t posted a new one for 6 weeks so here goes.
In light of the kinds of discussions that have been taking place on the forum recently, this poem caught my eye. Should I even call it a poem? I’d be interested to see how people respond to it.
A Paragraph Made Up of
Seven Sentences Which Have
Entered My Memory Via Hearing Them
or Reading Them and Have Each
Left an Impression There Like the
Slender Scar Left by a Salamander
in a Piece of Rapidly Cooling
Igneous Rock
Gentlemen, which of these three vegetables: tomatoes, pumpkins, or squash, will your wives say most represents the part of their anatomy that has come to sag the most since your wedding night. There was no blood or anything but when I got there she was turning blue. It's forty-eight WABC degrees. We control the horizontal. Bachelor number three is a sales manager who collects Disney memorabilia. Missing coed found slain. All this in Encyclopedia Britannica III: American Indians, Louis "Satchmo" Armstrong, The Reproductive System, Poisonous Animals and Plants, Atomic Energy, The Circus, Abominable Snowman, Napoleon and More…
CHUCK WACHTEL
Very interesting. Is the bold preface part of the poem and is there a title?Quote:
Originally Posted by The Unnamable
I'm pretty sure that the bold type is the title - I've seen this before somewhere, I think.
Fun, gossip, weather, television, sex, news and advertising; take your pick. I can select any one to get more, or let my car auto-search do it for me, and deepen the scar. As wearing as nature on our bodies, this time on our minds and souls, we are reshaped. I can guess the result will be seen ten thousand years from now.
I can already see something ''artbitrary'' about all of the things the author has written above. The Outline set by someone else so that we can then begin to interpret.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Unnamable
Our circumstances for different interpretations of the previous weeks poem(or any poem) is dependent on what we know of the world(our set outlines): What we've experienced; the type of information that we use to interpret situations, and so on.
LOL! its dependent on what you believe a poem is.Quote:
Should I even call it a poem
What classifications are needed to indentify something as a vegetable?