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Yes, I've read Hawking, with intrest. At one point he stated that there was no room for God in the Universe, and in a later work, seemed to modify the statement, allowing for the possibility. A brilliant man. It's sad to see him trapped in his own body by illness.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
Why not? It's my choice to make, after all. I find no reason to find fault with those who believe the other way. Infinate universe with infinate possibilities.Quote:
Originally Posted by atiguhya padma
Well, you're persistant, anyway. I will answer no more posts from you, as you seem to think me loony anway. No hard feeling, mon ami. Shall we agree to disagree? I shake hands with a worthy opponet, (in spirit, anyway!) Touche! ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by coffeestained
heh. As I said, I’m not ‘after you’ nor would my world be affected in any way if you all of a sudden came to your senses, I mean didn’t believe in Elves, Orcs and the Cheshire Cat. (more of a joke than a jab, I just hate smiley-things)Quote:
Originally Posted by Pendragon
When I said I “respect” your need, it was truthful, not just a setup for a slag or joke. Hell, the world is one miserable, dark place. To me embracing a baseless theory/figure/book as excuse isn’t soothing in the least, to others, many others, it is.
CNN, which seemingly stands for Christian News Network, broadcasts this pap every day.
I will probably hold off on this thread myself, I’m much more interested in talking books, but even that, sadly, isn’t done with much conviction in this Stephen King, Hairy Punter world…
I’ll close, however, by mentioning some books.
I’d hope at either end of the spectrum of thought on this subject one would like to have some knowledge in the area. Be it out of personal curiosity, the desire to learn or even a more spiteful ‘know you’re enemy’.
So, for those that like to read about the potential behind a “creator”, while this is not an area I’m an expert in, I’ve read, and I _believe_ he’s dubbed as the go-to guy on the subject:
Michael J. Behe’s Darwin’s Black Box ever-present scientific subtitle is “The Biochemical Challenge to Evolution”
For the opposite side, more of the “evolution” stuff I’d say, Daniel Dennett’s Darwin’s Dangerous Idea, the you-know-what-being, “Evolution and the Meanings of Life”.
These are excellent books in the field(s) and both authors have written others, and the astute reader will, from there, be able to also look into other writers in the respective theories from notes, citations and quotes.
Cheers
Well, I won't cite you on your spelling and grammar either as it would be presumptuous and rude of me :) we are very happy with the fact that there are many people here with english as secondary language who feel welcomed and comfortable enough to participate in these forums. Please try to discuss ideas, not posters.Quote:
Originally Posted by coffeestained
Jezuz, it never stops…Quote:
Originally Posted by Logos
If you think I haven’t been pretty damn on-topic most of the time nor can you pick up the irony of defending Americans while butchering the language (which is an idea, and not a person), along with not noticing yourself as *completely* countering your own request with your very post, especially as I just stated, basically, I’ll ‘get out of your hair’, I _highly_ question your “moderating” ability.
My apologies for being off topic here, but then again ignorance *is* a bit of an issue within this thread…
And my apologies for not seeing your post above mine as I was in the process of typing mine when you posted yours.Quote:
Originally Posted by coffeestained
But yes I can point out when someone is out of line with their comments about anothers' grammar and spelling, it's my job here. It is rude and presumptious to make it an issue. A person may have dyslexia, be using vision-impaired software or have english as secondary language and again, we try to have these forums welcoming to all, of all ages.
Please no more discussion of moderating in topic. If you or anyone ever has an issue or questions with/about the Moderators you can take it up with said Moderator or Admin via PM. We're just trying to maintain an atmosphere of civil, respectful discussion. This is the longest (36 pages) topic in this forum yet and I'm very happy it's mostly been postive and constructive.
As I’ve said in the past: no blood, no foul.Quote:
Originally Posted by Logos
If anything, *you’ve* made it an issue. Adults can generally take care of themselves, and can see the coloured lights (i.e. debating/moderating device).Quote:
But yes I can point out when someone is out of line with their comments about anothers' grammar and spelling, it's my job here. It is rude and presumptious to make it an issue. A person may have dyslexia, be using vision-impaired software or have english as secondary language and again, we try to have these forums welcoming to all, of all ages.
The day after my jibe I believe I stated I meant it as no harm and that I was using it in a situation by mentioned that I fully understood the first W in www was for world.
And I don’t think I outright offended anyone as clearly many haven’t felt the need to re-read their own posts or run them through a spell-checker before hitting “post”.
And keep on top on all this I have never stated on a numerical value where English is on my CV; I never will state I am perfect in any way. I do, however, during the course of my work day (as most of us are probably doing, much to our employer’s chagrin) try to make my posts pretty readable.
Occasionally, as we all do, I make a flub.
Much like your original post should have been handled?Quote:
Please no more discussion of moderating in topic. If you or anyone ever has an issue or questions with/about the Moderators you can take it up with said Moderator or Admin via PM.
[and sorry for keeping at this but I find it intolerable that you try to unjustly (for I’d guess that Edmond made no formal complaint and this all happened days before and was pretty much rendered moot) paddle my bottom in public…]
Back spot-on topic: here’s a bizarre article that takes “evolution” to silly levels. “Evolutionary Psychology”…
http://www.latimes.com/features/heal...la-home-health
You have been PMed, Coffeestained; however, since you have not yet read your PM, we had to bring this matter here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Coffeestained
Hmmm, indeed. I guess I don’t get email alert or a pop-up that there is a new message.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scheherazade
Although the message is bull****, as CLEARLY argued (although there *is* no argument) within this thread.
Forget it kids, do me a favour and delete my account or render it to “guest”. Pretty please. With metaphorical sugar on top.
If you want your account deleted, you have to PM Admin about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by coffeestained
Hello to evryone still interested in this thread. I've learned a lot here, and I kind of hate to see this thread die. Here is what I learned from talking with all of you, and remember, this is only my opinion.
1.) Question everything until you find something you are comfortable with believing.
2.) Once you do this, to quote the Eagles "You better hang on tooth and nail, the wolf is always at the door."
3.) You should consider yourself under no obligation to explain to anyone why you believe what you believe.
4.) If you do try to explain yourself remember this:
a.) There is no proof that will not be called into question by someone
b.) There is no point without a counterpoint
c.) This debate is older than any of us, and will likely survive us all
d.) It is better to agree to disagee and remain friends than agrue pointlessly over what none of us are willing to change, and indeed, should not change, our own convictions. For if we are truly convinced, then we should stand on that, and respect the other's right to do the same.
I wish all of you happiness in all that you do. As Paul says in the Bible, "Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherein Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage." Galatians 5:1 Being free to belive what you will, then exercise your freedom, as I will mine. But as I said, I'd hate to see this thread close. It's been so interesting...ya know? :)
"Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherein Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage."
Unless that bondage is Christianity itself, I take it.
<3.) You should consider yourself under no obligation to explain to anyone why you believe what you believe.>
No doubt this kind of principle was a contributing factor to the Jonestown Massacre.
Let me give some principles:
1) Question everything, especially those things you feel most comfortable in believing.
2) If you enter a debate with a belief, you should always feel obliged to give an explanation for your belief, otherwise you are little more than a propagandist.
3) If you are unwilling to change a belief, no matter what, then at least recognise that you have an extreme bias.
4) Never be truly convinced of something, unless you can logically defend your belief. The only open minded question, should be the one that has yet to be logically answered.
Please do not put words into my mouth.Quote:
Originally Posted by atiguhya padma
The Jonestown Massacre was a shameful and shocking example of what happens when people follow a man who advises them to seperate themselves from society and form their own "utopia." It almost always ends badly, like out in Waco, under similiar circumstances. As to whether my principle 3 would be a factor, I would say isolation and a messiah complex had more to do with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by atiguhya padma
I really don't feel that it is propaganda to state what you believe, nor that refusal to change is a show of bias. One thing for certain, there is no proof that will not be questioned by someone, or called "illogical" by someone. Don't take this as a personal attack, for that is not my intention. I will agree to disagree, shake hands, and move on with no hard feelings. We're all adults here, correct? So my best to you, hold on to your beliefs tightly, for who knows but what in the end you may be correct and myself wrong. Cheers! Dragon out. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by atiguhya padma
Yes. That's if you count teenagers as adults....:brow:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragon
Ah, yes, *everything* is possible, remember. But it is highly improbable that the Christian god in particular should be true. Maybe some god, who started off the Big Bang and then decided to disappear...but that still doesn't solve the problem, I mean, where did the god come from? If you say "he has always existed" well then it's the same as the universe, the universe has also existed for as long as there has been time.Quote:
Yes, I've read Hawking, with intrest. At one point he stated that there was no room for God in the Universe, and in a later work, seemed to modify the statement, allowing for the possibility.
I'm glad you enjoy Hawking. Have you read his The Universe in a Nutshell? Wonderful book, with very interesting concepts.
What boggles me is, if you have read Hawking, surely you must have come across the Uncertainty Principle...*somewhere*? Or have you perhaps read a more specialised work that didn't go into detail about this? Or were you merely joking when you said that there is no room for chance in this universe...
No time. Must run.
Loki