You know, I still have only gotten to chapter 2, but I had that exact thought about Poe, and then I thought right after - Dark Muse will like this story! So, I am right,huh?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
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You know, I still have only gotten to chapter 2, but I had that exact thought about Poe, and then I thought right after - Dark Muse will like this story! So, I am right,huh?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
Antiquarian, don't worry, I have not really gotten that far to make that Poe comparison; I was more or less just kidding with Dark Muse. I did find it strange that she thought it humorous though since you said it was so tragic, which would fit more with Chekhov's usual work.Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiquarian
I can exaplin the Poe elements of the story when we start the dicussion. As far as the humur part, well I love Dark/Black comedy, and though this story was not ment to be a comedy, there were certain elements of it my twisted sense of humur could not help but to be amused by
Good to hear, Antiquarian, I think then you would definitely like his other books as well. I said before that "Sons and Lovers" is quite set appart and distinctly different from the novels that followed - Lawrence said so himself. I thought "Lady Chatterly's Lover" a fine book and very well crafted.Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiquarian
Yeah, don't start the discussion on "The Black Monk" yet please; poor Quark will take a fit if we do so, before he posts his nice introduction page and photo. Also, I have not even finished reading the story.
Quark, I did find many photos of Russian monks online last night, and they don't look quite like I would picture a monk, only one really had a hood and it was quite decorative; others had dark clothes and a sort of hat. I saved the photos, if you care to check them out; I could send them to your email address or provide links on here. I also found that illusionist painters work with monks but the gowns/hoods were not real black. Still it is an interesting looking painting.
Quess what Antiquarian? I just discovered this recently. I think that Quark mentioned a Chekhov short story called 'The Good Doctor' - well, I saw it done in play form and guess who played the 'good doctor'? Richard Chamberlain. Check it out on Amazon.
Antiquarian, I thought "The Good Doctor" was a little strange, too, I think; or if I recall it correctly, from when I saw it awhile back. I just remember he talks to the audience quite a bit and I think he is not that decent a man; but don't quote me on that; it has been awhile since I saw it. When it comes back into my library, I shall watch it again; now I am curious knowing it was from a Chekhov story. I think it is listed on the Kultur site, too. I think it may be one of their DVD's productions. I saw it on Amazon the other night; just looked it up to refresh my memory and see if indeed, the story was originally by Chekhov and if it was based on the short story.Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiquarian
"The Waves" wasn't a remake of the Virginia Woolf novel was it? They do shoot a lot of English films in Australia. Hope that one comes into my library sometime; sounds interesting.
I hate to miss the in between story chat, but I've been out all day looking for apartments. Tomorrow and the next day are not going to be less busy either, unfortunately. I have to help someone move and drop in at a party. It probably won't be until Sunday night that I can post anything. I'll start the story either that night or the next morning. See you all then.
Quark,that is fully understandable. Do take your time. Monday morning would be fine, although that is Memorial Day, so some people may be busy, anyway. Actually, some may be busy the whole weekend - summer is finally beginning!Quote:
Originally Posted by Quark
We need a little break, as I see it, so no need to rush.
Well, if you can hang in there till Monday, that would be good for me; I tried to finish the story last night. It is a long one and I am such a slow reader; you must read fast, Antiquarian!Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiquarian
Anyway, I just could not finish, as much as I desired it; again my eyes would not co-operate, stay open. I think I only have one or two chapters left. One thing I can say about this story, is it is typically Chekhov, to me in that it is so sad (once again). It somehow also reminds me of Turgenev's work, such as the book "Fathers and Sons"; although, I fail to see any bit of humor in this story, as Dark Muse seemed to think. Actually, in "Fathers and Sons" I did encounter some bits of humor, such as the duel.
I will be posting more Lawrence text so you can all discuss that in the meantime. I know we have had a break in both threads for a day or so which is what I think is making us all restless.
Well, Antiquarian, by the time Quark does post his title page and we all look over the story again, I doubt we will post much until the end of the week; so don't worry about it. I know I have a lot to do next week; this time of year, with spring and I need to get an airconditioner into a window or I will die of the heat upstairs. I also, need to get my summer cloths out; a little late now for fleece and sweaters, don't you think? I think it is now safe to put those away and get out lightweight tops and shorts. Yeah, bring on summer! :thumbs_up :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Antiquarian
Oh yes, same with me. Antiquarian. I do that too, leaving a few things available all summer long; you never know when you might need them. Still the bulk has to be brought up two flights of stairs - tiring; try to do it little at a time. In fact, just when I get things rearranged it will get cold again; you wait and see; happens every year to me!Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiquarian
Anyway, glad you are all caught up. I did finish the story last night. Gee, I don't know quite what to make of it. I did love that ending. I did find it tragic and very, very sad. I will be interested to hear all of your comments first. I thought the writing was wonderful and the descriptions beautiful; great imagery. I thought the story very well crafted. I know it will make for a fine discussion.
I am having a little trouble with a few personal feelings, that unfortunately are interferring with my perception and the main concept of the story; I felt this last night, when I got to a certain part. I will explain to you, Antiquarian, in an email personally and not on this thread. It is a private matter and quite involved actually.
I seriously, will be anxious first to hear all of your comments, to open up this discussion and then I will probably comment after. I hope that sheds a clearer light on this for me; the problem I am having is simply a complex thing for me, personally. I think the story is more 'complex' than it appears to be on a first reading. I am hoping to read it again; I am sure I will see more things to enlighten me. It is not that I don't fully understand the story; that I do, absolutely and I understand exactly what Chekhov is conveying in this story and those ideas do appeal greatly to me. I just have some qualms - this might involve my own ideas on realism, etc. I am sure we will get into all this in-depth later on. Perhaps this story is not intended to be totally realistic such as a "A Rose for Emily" by Faulkner, or "The Man Who Loved Islands" by Lawrence. I tend to see things logically and realistically. Not sure that can apply here at all.
Yes, I know my logic is playing into this story too much. I must try and disregard that, to look at it differently. I think it is very artistically written and constructed. I can't wait to hear what you have to say about the story, Antiquarian. In some ways, it reminded me of the Faulkner story, in that the ending was also tragic and a little surprising. I kind of knew at that point, you would have liked this story very much.Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiquarian
It seems like everyone is ready for the next story. This one is much longer than the previous short story, so we'll move through it gradually. I'll post chunks of the story like I've done in other discussions. Really, I do that every time. I stopped in the last discussion because it was needless to post text when the entire text is only two pages long. "The Black Monk," having more pages, certainly needs to have parts posted to keep the conversation grounded to something specific in the story. I'll post the first section soon after the introduction. Here's the intro:
"The Black Monk"
The plot centers around the professor Andrey Vasilyevich Kovrin who takes a vacation to the country. There, he meets Pesotzky, his former gaurdian, and helps him with his impressive garden. He also becomes quite attached to Pesotzky's daughter, Tanya. The story follows Kovrin's interaction with this pair as he slowly becomes aware of his own physical weakening. Meanwhile, he's being visited by an apparition of a black monk which symbolizes many of Kovrin's own conceits and insecurities. Kovrin is one of Chekhov's most complicated characters, and in "The Black Monk" he gives him physical, mental, and social problems that he must engage with. Yet, for all that's going on, the story is told calmly and tranquilly. The comfortable garden scenes and light mocking of Pesotzky make the story seem pleasant and light-hearted, but underneathe the surface boils all of Kovrin's inner-turmoil.http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/k...ih44whp4b3.jpg
It's an enjoyable read, and I hope we get a good discussion going. I expect there will be much talk about what the black monk actually symbolizes, and what it's role in the story is. But, I also think there's going to quite a lot to say about the style of this story--whether it's Poe-like or Faulkner-esk. Kovrin, of course, should be fun to discuss, as well as Pesotzky and the garden. There should be many points of interest. Hopefully we'll have time to get to everything.
Finally, there's the much anticipated story illustration. It's becomes so popular that I thought I should wait until the end to post it. That way I can give the picture some explanation. This one is an oil painting by a Russian artist from around the time this story was first published. It's been used before as a cover to a collection of Chekhov stories, but they applied it to "Ward No. 6" which I don't think it matches. It works well for the "Black Monk" because it reminds us that Kovrin is ailing while this story is going on. He doesn't want to admit it, and the text doesn't make much of his illness. But, it's still very present. He's in bed or on a couch most of his time. The painting reminds me of the reality that Kovrin doesn't want to admit. Also, I think the colors are great for this story. They seem to fit the mood.
Sleepless Nights by Nikolai Romadin (1905)
Well that's the introduction. I'll post the first section of the story in my next post.
Good job on the introduction Quark and nice painting/photo to begin with; interesting that it was painted around the same time of the publication of the story. I find you are right in that, it does seem to fit the mood of the story, as you explained it. I also, like what you wrote about this story and believe it actually, has me thinking in a slightly different mode than I was thinking, just after completing the story; it is a very complex/complicated story.
I found some cool photos of Russian monks I will send to you, or post in here
later in the story.
This should be a very interesting discussion. I can't wait till we start, but take your time. Today is a holiday....
Happy Memorial Day everyone!
Hope everyone is having a cookout!
Now that we have officially began the discussion there were a couple things I just briefly mentioned earlier, that I said would explain further when the discussion began.
First was the fact that I did find the story to have some Poe like elements within it, the reason I said this was for a few reasons. For one thing, the very beginning in which Kovrin is depicted as being a very nervous individual and this aspect of his nervousness does play into the story and comes up more than once, as well Egor is also said to be quite nervous a times.
The idea of "nervousness" and either having a nervous narrator, and the subject of the story being of a "nervous" frame of mind is something that can be frequently seen in the works of Poe and Poe does use this device of nervousness for the readers to question the one who is telling us the story, to better determine if the events within the story are to be taken literally, and are reliable, or if we should doubt what we are being told.
And of course madness is another common factor in a lot of a Poe's stories, as well I thought the ending of this story had a Poe like feel to it, in some ways it made me think of the Masque of the Red Death.
The other thing I said, was that in some ways I found this story to be humorous, which I know sounds rather strange, as well I know the story was intended to be tragic, as well it was, but to be perfectly honest, for one thing I thought all three of them, Kovrin, Egor and Tania were all neurotic in one degree or another, and just the fact that the three of them were living together in the same house, all going off on their own little tangents, Egor constantly fretting about the farm, Tania, always bursting into tears and locking herself in her room while Kovrin was walking around talking to his hallucinogenic monk well I could not help but to find that amusing. It paints a really funny image in my mind.
And well the banquet scene during the wedding when Kovrin sees the Black Monk at the dinner table with them, I found that hysterical.
Dark Muse, you gave really good reasons you felt the story Poe-like. Your post was well written and layed those ideas out well. I admit that I have read very little of Poe, but one forms an impression from poems and other people's remarks about Poe. My father loved Poe. I especially like the part you wrote about believing the narrator and he also being 'nervous'. That is a very interesting thought. It had not dawned on me before.
Actually, what I have been wanting to say, is that I thought none of them were sane. I thought the wife's fits of crying abnormal, and the father was such a perfectionist, concerning his garden, also a total 'control freak', so I have to agree with you about the three of them - Kovrin, Egor and Tania - none acted too rational to me. In fact, there were times, I actually thought Kovrin had it all together more do than the father and daughter did. One factor is, that they thought they were perfectly sane and Kovrin knew he had a problem when he started seeing the monk. At least, he could admit his. By his recognition that the monk was an halucination he seemed more in touch with reality, than they really were. Ironically enough, his awareness of his insanity made him more sane.Quote:
The other thing I said, was that in some ways I found this story to be humorous, which I know sounds rather strange, as well I know the story was intended to be tragic, as well it was, but to be perfectly honest, for one thing I thought all three of them, Kovrin, Egor and Tania were all neurotic in one degree or another, and just the fact that the three of them were living together in the same house, all going off on their own little tangents, Egor constantly fretting about the farm, Tania, always bursting into tears and locking herself in her room while Kovrin was walking around talking to his hallucinogenic monk well I could not help but to find that amusing. It paints a really funny image in my mind.
I must check that scene out; I don't recall it at all. I think I might also find that amusing.Quote:
And well the banquet scene during the wedding when Kovrin sees the Black Monk at the dinner table with them, I found that hysterical.