I will be sure to keep that in mind, thank youQuote:
Originally Posted by islandclimber
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I will be sure to keep that in mind, thank youQuote:
Originally Posted by islandclimber
There is no built-in spell check with this forum software version. It might happen in the future if Admin waves his magic wand and adds it :p
The only spell checker I am familiar with and use is the one built in to the web browser Firefox
http://www.mozilla.com/en-US/firefox/features.html
I don't know about Internet Exploder because I don't use it :) but I suppose it has one too.
Spell checkers work for *any* place web-based forms or fields where you enter text into a text field such as a forum post, a blog entry, or say a gmail message, etc.
Google Toolbar has a spell checker too
http://www.google.com/tools/firefox/.../en/index.html
ok, hope this helps :)
Thanks Logos. I wonder if Quark's computer with spell check runs off of frefox.
As to my splling of archetype, I wasn't spelling it in a rare or fancy way; I was just misspelling it. :blush:
We know and you have two typos in this post too, unless 'frefox' is something I don't know about :rolleyes: :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
I just finnised reading Two Bluebirds, and I just had to say, incredibly, I did not in fact hate the woman in this one.
You got me. Yeah, it must be Firefox correcting my mistakes. Of course, a LitNet spell check would be useful improvement.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Are we set on a story now? I'm ready to start posting whenever, but I suppose I should wait for Janine's intro.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
has anyone else heard of the "open Library project"??? It is pretty darn cool... you go to the internet archive and search for an author in the text sections, and if you click on the books that aren't from project gutneberg, you can open them in a style called FLIP which allows to read the books as though you were turning the pages, they have all the stains from use and sometimes students or borrowers have circled lines... I guess they scan them page by page.. it is like you are actually reading a book... a living book... pretty neat.. doesn't have a ton of Lawrence, but has a bit...
text archive
Yes, the story is set for Two Bluebirds, Janine said she was going do an offical annoucment on MondayQuote:
Originally Posted by Quark
Quote by Quark
Quark, :( I don't have foxfire so that is probably why I don't have spell-check, either.:bawling:Quote:
You got me. Yeah, it must be Firefox correcting my mistakes. Of course, a LitNet spell check would be useful improvement.
"Two Blue Birds" - go ahead and begin to read it; certainly. I read it a month or so back and only need to re-read it and review, hopefully tonight, if I can keep my eyes open long enough...*huge yawn, the coffee I drank seems to be doing nothing for me; why?*:yawnb: I will formally announce the short story tomorrow; but it won't be early in the day...sorry gang. I am dead tired out right now; I did not sleep much last night:( . I want to post some background on the story and a little synopsis, without giving away, too much.....be patient......Monday......:DQuote:
Are we set on a story now? I'm ready to start posting whenever, but I suppose I should wait for Janine's intro.
Quote by islandclimbrer
Hmmm...islandclimber, I never heard of that or of an FLIP file? What is that anyway. Do you need a program to open it, or must you download one that reads FLIP files? It sounds fascinating, but I doubt my computer would handle it. I should wait till I get a new computer with more RAM and memory to try it. I will check out the site, anyway. How funny - virtual books and some with coffee stains and all!:lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by islandclimber
Quote by Dark Muse
Hopefully... I will announce it formally tomorrow - not too late, but not in the morning either. I am NOT a morning person!Quote:
Yes, the story is set for Two Bluebirds, Janine said she was going do an offical annoucment on Monday
Heheee, I can't figure you Dark Muse. I was going to suggest this one last month but thought you would hate the wife. How funny, I can't guess how you will react. Did you like the story?Quote:
I just finnised reading Two Bluebirds, and I just had to say, incredibly, I did not in fact hate the woman in this one.
Hehe yes I did enjoy the story
and well not to go into too much deatil I think the reason my feelings were different in this story, is becasue for one I did not find the husband as symapathic in this story as the one in The Shadow in the Rose Garden
And the other thing, is that in Two Bluebirds, I felt husband and wife were more on equal footing with each other, they knew each other for what they were, I did not get so much the impression as I did in The Shadow in the Rose Garden, of some poor devoted husband beeing trampled over by his selfish wife.
Yeah, let's hear it for poor trampled husbands. :p :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
The baby shower was great, but I ate too much, and now am too tired out to post. I can only reply to your comment to DM - :lol: :lol: :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
See you all tomorrow - I will be more awake hopefully!:yawnb:
That really does make a lot of sense, Dark Muse. :) The story was very amusing, wasn't it? :lol: and now I am going to bed!.... "perchance to read....more like dream...." *enormous yawn*Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
Yes, that it was, and I look forward to our discussion of it
Well, I am awake :eek: and I have had coffee so that is promising. Funny, after reading the story again, last night and digesting it, I was thinking about what you wrote DM, and now I don't think I am in full agreement with you about the husband and wife being on 'even footing', but I could be wrong, too. Therefore, this can be something we can furthur explore and disguss, after I officially post the story introduction. I have been trying to locate the original references, to the person, this story was based on, and there is an actual person. I found something new, but not the exact thing I had read before, so I am still researching that online and in my books. Be back in awhile with my introduction or later, tonight. I have to go out this evening for a short while, but will be back, not too late and may have to post it then if I don't do so in the day. Sorry for the delay, it can't be helped.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
Hello Everyone!
Our next discussion will be on the short story:
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p...therWhiteT.jpg
This story involves a man and woman who have been married for a number of years and gotten used to each other. They cannot seem to coexist in the same house for long. The man is an author and therefore works at home, while the wife seems prone to spending much of the husband’s money and traveling extensively. The wife often goes off to parts of Europe or warmer climates, for extended periods of time and they have a sort of agreement that she has her affairs and that has nothing to do really with their marriage, claiming they love each other. The husband relies heavily on his devoted young secretary and so eventually, on returning home, the wife becomes observant and jealous of this dedicated relationship the secretary has with her husband, something the wife knows she could never give to him. I won’t give away anymore of story. I only want to comment, that I felt it was one of the more quick witted and amusing stories of Lawrence’s with an underlying feeling of resentments, unspoken between the husband and wife. This makes for an interesting study and scenario between wife, husband and secretary.
Interesting facts I was able to research about this story:
From: D.H.Lawrence A Calender of his Works by Sagar:
This ‘tribulation’ that Lawrence refers to is most likely his anticipation of protest from Compton Mackenzie, who you may have remembered was the model for Lawrence’s short story ‘The Man Who Loved Islands’; later when Lawrence’s publisher wanted to include the story in “The Prussian Officer and Other Short Stories” collection, Mackenzie threatened to sue, or pressured the publisher not to include it or he would find another publisher himself, because Mackenzie had the same publisher. A while back I read an account of Lawrence having lunch with Mackenzie’s wife Faith Mackensie, who confided in Lawrence about she and her husband’s separate life styles. Somewhat like Lawrence and Frieda, they had been married for awhile and apparently Faith spend much time away from their home, in Scotland. Like Lawrence, Compton Mackenzie was a productive author. Mackenzie apparently did not protest when his wife wished to wander off, from time to time. There are many references, in my biography books, mentioning Faith’s visits(alone and husband-less) to various place or groups of people Lawrence knew. After this fateful lunch with Faith, Lawrence wrote ‘Two Blue Birds’, obviously basing the story on her character and her husband. Of course, with L's writing of TMWLI - more fuel was added to the fire.Quote:
May 1926 At Pensione Lucchesi, Florence, until 6, then to Villa Mirenda, Scandicci, Florence, which was then the Lawrence home until June 1923.
SUMMARY Lawrence wrote his Introduction to Max Havelaar [B21 and Phoenix] and ‘Two Blue Birds’ [C154 B222 A41], and continued to work on the Etuscans.
13 MAY To Nancy Pearn: [i] I send you a story, ‘Two Blue Birds’ – probably to be another tribulation to you [Huxley 658].
In another reference, found in my new Cambridge biography of L – “The Life of an Outsider” by John Worthen, I found this account:
Interesting to note, that the next story that follows this one, in the 2rd volume of the set, is the short story we all read and liked so much, "Sun". I sense the progression that took place in Lawrence's creative process, and find it a very interesting period in this writing. Chronologically, 'The Man Who Loved Islands' follows in the next and final volume (3).Quote:
But Lawrence was now properly back at work, typing out Frieda’s translation of David, though he hated doing it (‘I loathe the typewriter’), writing essays about Florence and producting two pieces of work provoked by conversations, in Capri in March, with Compton Mackenzie’s wife, Faith: ‘another who loves her husband but can’t live with him.’ That wasn’t exactly true of him and Frieda, but the subject obviously appealed. ‘Two Blue Birds’ was a skit and no more, but ‘The Man Who Loved Islands’ became one of Lawrence’s greatest works: a profound criticism of the temperament that seeks out separation from the world.
I found these biographical notes of some interest, in the way in which the two short stories are linked somewhat, in Lawrence's original concept, basing them on the husband and wife. Also, rather humorous to me, was the fact, that Lawrence was retyping his wife’s work (probably annoyed at that) and hating the typewriter. He mentioned the secretary several times typing up manuscripts for the husband/author in this story.
Well, enjoy the story everyone! Now we can officially begin discussing it.:)
Hehe well now that it has offically begun, I will be sure to work on picking out passages of which most stand out to me
Yay Janine!!!!!
Thanks all! I made it just in-time.....now about Chekhov and the ship.....well, I still have not read 'Gooseberries' - would it hurt, do you think, to read that one later and the story we will be discussing tomorrow, tonight? Or will I miss out on something taking them out of sequence. I will do my best I guess.Quote:
Originally Posted by islandclimber
One thing I noticed about this Lawrence story, that seems so much different in form from other stories we read so far, is that even though there is a first person narrator, I feel that the things being thought and said, come directly from the wife's viewpoint. I also get the sense, throughout the story, that this is from the wife's point of view, entirely. I guess that would make sense since, in fact, Faith Mackenzie, who the story was fashioned after, was the one narrating her personal business, about her marriage to Lawrence, directly confiding in him, over a casual lunch. In this way, the story almost, but not quite, feels like a frame story. I like the quirky way the story is written. It moves along quickly, with many double meaning phrases, that really made me think and laugh, as well. I felt the story was very cleverly written and had more of an 'edge' - something like the way Chekhov wrote....is the story a little Chekhovian, do you think? or am I spending too much time in that other thread? ;) :lol:
Good introduction, Janine. I'll post something tomorrow when I get back from work.
The order isn't that relevant. As long as you read "About Love" and "Gooseberries" together, it doesn't matter which one comes first. See you guys tomorrow.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Dark Muse, Oh good. If you do so, can you try and keep it in sequence, as to how the story develops? It is often good to work up the discussion, as the story progresses; otherwise, everyone just get randomly lost. At least for me this true when we jump way ahead too quickly. We have a whole month to discuss this story so let's take our time. At least going slowly and in order of events is less confusing for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
I can't wait to hear what you have to say about the story and especially about the wife. I thought you were going to hate her. I even refrained from picking this story (last month) on account of your hatred for the lady in "Shadow in the Rose Garden":lol:
And she didn't really want him to kiss her; she knew him too well. Yes, she knew him too well. If you know a man too well, you don't want him to kiss you.
:D :D DH Lawrence in a "Wildesque" moment to coin another term... This is fantastic... Maybe not the best part of the story, but the wittiest... I love it... How come I've never seen this as a quote before?!?!?!
Janine great intro!!! It is a little like some of Chekhov's more comedic works... actually one comes to mind, "The Darling" where the lady only feels happy when she is married to someone and lives for them and through them.. she reminds me of the secretary in this story.. it is quite good as well.. One of Chekhov's better non tragic works...
I also saw the story as basically told by the wife and from her own viewpoint entirely... I think this was necessary to make the wife have some redeeming features... for if we did not have her thoughts to accompany the story, I would see her as pretty awful... but her thoughts put her actions and words into a more positive light... which is why I assume Lawrence wrote from the wife's perspective, so we all don't hate her... :D
sorry about quoting half way through the book.. :p I just saw Oscar Wilde in big bold letters when I read that, and I absolutely had to!!! :D
You got it, I will be sure to keep my quotes toward the begining of the story, and save the others untill we progress more to that pointQuote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Hi again, Dark Muse! Ok, good you both get the system/my thought process. The discussions, where we 'refrained from' charging head-first to the very end of the story in the initial 24 hours, were the best in the long-run, so let's all take it s l o w l y and post segments, as the story progresses: highlight certain phrases and talk about them, as they develop. This worked well in the previous (successful discussions) so stay in the same frame of mind...chronological. We will get more out of it that way. There is a lot here to discuss and many of the lines are just so witty and great to think about in different contexts. This should be great fun!Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
Isn't this just great...only Lawrence would write it just that way!Quote:
And she didn't really want him to kiss her; she knew him too well. Yes, she knew him too well. If you know a man too well, you don't want him to kiss you.
It is a thought and a consideration. Lawrence did like Wild, I believe. I should research that, before I make that statement. Lawrence knew first-hand how to dish out creative insults, he being constantly attacked and rejected, by former friends, publishers and the public. I think this comes out in this story. Lawrence could get so angry and say something when lashing out it, was actually funny to hear. He used the word 'swine' liberally. I laugh when I read his letters - they're so entertaining!Quote:
DH Lawrence in a "Wildesque" moment to coin another term... This is fantastic... Maybe not the best part of the story, but the wittiest... I love it... How come I've never seen this as a quote before?!?!?!
[quote]Janine great intro!!! It is a little like some of Chekhov's more comedic works... actually one comes to mind, "The Darling" where the lady only feels happy when she is married to someone and lives for them and through them.. she reminds me of the secretary in this story.. it is quite good as well.. One of Chekhov's better non tragic works...
Thanks so much, islandclimber. I am glad the 'introduction' works. I really did not quite know what to write, in summary, about this story. I tried finding a written summary or introduction, online and in my books, and came up blank, so I had to just make it up in my own words. I never like to tell too much anyway; just something short, to entice a person to read the story.
It was not easy finding that other biographical information, either. I had to hunt and hunt through countless books.
I would like that story "The Darling" I think. I will have to fit it in sometime soon. Thanks for the suggestion.
[quote]I also saw the story as basically told by the wife and from her own viewpoint entirely... I think this was necessary to make the wife have some redeeming features... for if we did not have her thoughts to accompany the story, I would see her as pretty awful... but her thoughts put her actions and words into a more positive light... which is why I assume Lawrence wrote from the wife's perspective, so we all don't hate her...
So you did also see it from her point of view...interesting way of writing, isn't it? I like your ideas on why. It makes her feelings seem 'human', reactions seem entirely believable, I imagine. We can see through her eyes and I will not say sympathise, but we can view the scenes unfolding, as she is percieving them. That may indeed, have been L's motive. However, the woman the story was fashioned after, Faith - I don't think she would have agreed with that idea. Her real husband, Compton, was very put-out at Lawrence over that story. But then again, maybe Lawrence was favoring her side - interesting thought - after all she had confided something to Lawrence about her married life and gave him the idea for this story to begin with. I believe it was a friendly lunch they had together. I had not viewed it quite that way. I might have to go back and read it a third time.;)
[quote]sorry about quoting half way through the book.. I just saw Oscar Wilde in big bold letters when I read that, and I absolutely had to!!!
I rather enjoyed the way the story was written from her point of view, and though I cannot say I entirely agree with her, in someways I can understand/relate to her feelings. Though it is true I did not dislike her, I also would not say I completely sympathathied with her, than I do not think she was seeking any sympathy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
One of the things that really struck me about her, and perhaps contributed to my feelings toward her, is the fact that she came off as being both a very strong woman as well as independent. And in many ways, she does admit her own faults.
I must admit that I also do enjoy her sardonic cynicism
I really enjoyed the passage. I liked the contrast it showed between the two. The husband in grey England, while the wife, away in the sun. I also like the way in which while the wife is perceived here as being rather gay and vibrant, the husband is seen as being more grim and dreary.Quote:
But when he sat in the greyness of England, at the back of his mind, with a certain grim fidelity, he was aware of his wife, her strange yearning to be loyal and faithful, having her gallant affairs away in the sun, in the south. And she, as she drank her cocktail on the terrace over the sea, and turned her grey, sardonic eyes on the heavy dark face of her admirer, whom she really liked quite a lot, she was actually preoccupied with the clear-cut features of here handsome young husband, thinking about how he would be asking his secretary to do something for him, asking in that good-natured confident voice of a man who knows his request will be only too gladly fulfilled
Though I did find it interesting the fact that the wife's eyes are described as being grey as well, while is gazing upon her admirer with her thoughts turning back to her husband.
First of all, I just loved the fact that he was described as being catty here, sense such is a term most often used to refer to women. And I loved the whimsical description. I found something almost charming in this passage.Quote:
You never knew how catty a man was being, when he was really clever and enigmatic, withal a bit whimsical. He was adorably whimsical, with a twist of his flexible handsome, clear-cut mouth, that had a long upper lip, so fraught with vanity! But then a handsome clear-cut histrionic young man like that, how could he help being vain? The women made him so.
I just love these lines.Quote:
Ah, the women! How nice men would be if there were no other women!
And how nice the women would be if there were no other men!
I really liked this passage. It displays a certain kind of intimacy which exists between a man and his secretary for the special sort of relationship they have together. The secretary is seen as being in some sort of awe over the man whom dictates to her while she gives him a special importance.Quote:
That is best of a secretary. She may have a husband, but a husband is the mere shred of a man, compared to a boss, a chief, a man who dictates to you and whose words you faithfully write down and then transcribe. Imagine a wife writing down anything her husband said to her! But a secretary! Every and and but of his she preserves for ever. Where are candied violets in comparison
I particularly like
To me there is a certain humor here, for it is a rather timeless joke, the fact that women are so often portrayed as not paying attention to their husbands or listening to them.Quote:
Imagine a wife writing down anything her husband said to her!
As usual I'm behind. I haven't read it yet. I'll jump in as soon as I can, but don't wait for me.
I agree with that assessment and observation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
Dark Muse, I read your post last night and thought it was excellent. I just was way too tired (it was 3 AM here!) to respond. Glad you jumped right in and posted the passages to discuss. Thanks so much for that.Quote:
One of the things that really struck me about her, and perhaps contributed to my feelings toward her, is the fact that she came off as being both a very strong woman as well as independent. And in many ways, she does admit her own faults.
True - a more modern thinking woman perhaps and one has to consider the time this is set in. Women were not known to work if they were married unless they were established authors or artists. I felt she was somewhat like Lawrence's own wife, who was known to have a few affairs, here and there in their marriage, but felt it was nothing that affected their marriage or love for each other. That is questionable on Lawrence's end but it seemed her attitude was more liberated, although I don't personally subscribe to infidelity. So, in this story I think Lawrence is merely exploring that idea and the fact that eventually the wife returns home and does have some feelings of resentment and being left out of her husband's life. It sets up an interesting case to look at. True she can see her own faults. She later says that she could not do the things that his secretary does for him. I don't think the wife is practical minded at all or does any bit of work. She's much like a 'kept woman', enjoying the benefits of her husband's income, but that always does have it's downside.
Very much so, and 'sardonic' and 'cynicism' are a good words. I was gropping for words that would describe her cynicism and her remarks. This is why I said this story reminded me of a Chekhov story - he often is sardonic and cynical when describing the thoughts of a person or viewing people.Quote:
I must admit that I also do enjoy her sardonic cynicism
.Quote:
I really enjoyed the passage. I liked the contrast it showed between the two. The husband in grey England, while the wife, away in the sun. I also like the way in which while the wife is perceived here as being rather gay and vibrant, the husband is seen as being more grim and dreary
Good observation - good contrast. It seems to me they both are somewhat in a state of 'inertia' in the marriage, although she takes the step to try and escape it. Apparently, when she does so, she can't really leave her life behind; it trails along with her, even if she tries to shut out thoughts of him. We will get to those passages, later on. Yes, she seeks the sun - strange since the story following this one, is similar in that the wife leaves the gray existence, which is restrictive and stagnant, with her huband in the states, and then gravitates to warmer, sunnier climates. It seems that in the next story, Lawrence advances the characters to find the 'sun' and the healing powers, it can provide. In this story we see only the bitter conflict.
Lawrence really had a thing for describing eyes. He often even changes the color of one character's eyes somewhat, throughtout the story, to depict a mood or a change. It is an interesting thing to observe. I wonder if anyone has ever done a study or a thesis on 'eyes' in Lawrence's literature. In one book I read, he described the eyes of this man, who was more 'blood conscious', and a sort of wandering gypsy performer in threater group, as yellow; I am referring to the novel "The Lost Girl". I think in 'The Fox' he also used the image of yellow eyes. Do these depict the sun, do you think? I recall mention of it often, in "The Plumed Serpent". I want to throw this in now, so I don't forget it. I read in a letter, while researching for this story, that when Lawrence's publisher suggested that name for the novel "The Plumed Serpent", Lawrence made the remark in a letter that he thought it was a silly name. He originally was going to entitle the novel "Quentzalcoatl", the name for the lost sun god in Mexico. The publisher did not like the name at all, so Lawrence relented. That is just a little tidbit, I thought of interest. Many of Lawrence's stories and novels were renamed by others or his publishers. No wonder he became cynical and annoyed at so many people. I say leave the author to his own concepts and titles!Quote:
Though I did find it interesting the fact that the wife's eyes are described as being grey as well, while is gazing upon her admirer with her thoughts turning back to her husband.
That is quite interesting. I think that men can be 'caddy' at times, just the same as women, but you are right - it has been a term assigned solely to women, mostly since men tagged them! ;) :lol:. Battle of the sexes ensues once again....hahaha....Hey, DM, now we women are outnumbered on this thread again, unless Pensive shows up to even things out.:DQuote:
First of all, I just loved the fact that he was described as being catty here, sense such is a term most often used to refer to women. And I loved the whimsical description. I found something almost charming in this passage.
Let me further comment on those quoted lines:
I do notice this is entirely from the wife's opinion, but I do like that she is saying this. Then she turns it to whimsy and to her husband as being adorable when whimsical...interesting. In one paragraph, she is criticising him, and then by the end, she is admiring him. In fact, she is defending him by the last statement. She is basically saying it is not his fault for being vain; women made him that way. This paragraph is quite intricate and 'telling' of the wife's truer impressions of her huband.Quote:
You never knew how catty a man was being, when he was really clever and enigmatic, withal a bit whimsical. He was adorably whimsical, with a twist of his flexible handsome, clear-cut mouth, that had a long upper lip, so fraught with vanity! But then a handsome clear-cut histrionic young man like that, how could he help being vain? The women made him so.
Quote:
I just love these lines.
Then I will requote these lines and I love them, too:Quote:
I really liked this passage. It displays a certain kind of intimacy which exists between a man and his secretary for the special sort of relationship they have together. The secretary is seen as being in some sort of awe over the man whom dictates to her while she gives him a special importance.
It is true too, and probably why so many bosses go for their secretaries or have affairs with them; sometimes they actually marry them, but most times not...that would ruin the whole deal. The secretary is in a position of 'unconditional' love and respect for the man. Maybe, it is not true love, but it is devotion and attentiveness. What wife can possible fill those shoes, all of the time? Unrealistic! The husband/secretary relationship is a unique one and often it leads to illicit affairs or breakups in the marriage. The wife does usually know, to begin with and ignores it. I think back to our US president, FDR; it was common knowlegde he had affairs with his secretary, until he became disabled. His wife knew. She was home raising the kids and how could she find time to listen to every little thing her husband said or wrote down? Yet to the day he died they professed to love one another, and they did stick it out and stay together. From what I understand, his disability changed him and so the relationship finally had a chance, but then who really knows? At least after that they came to some kind of mutal understanding of each other and respect and better communication.Quote:
That is best of a secretary. She may have a husband, but a husband is the mere shred of a man, compared to a boss, a chief, a man who dictates to you and whose words you faithfully write down and then transcribe. Imagine a wife writing down anything her husband said to her! But a secretary! Every and and but of his she preserves for ever. Where are candied violets in comparison.
I do too, and I requote them here:Quote:
I particularly like
Exactly! Lawrence even complained about having to retype "David" which his wife, Frieda, had typed for him, filling in for his usual typist. He was grumbling and annoyed, just about the time he was also writing this story. I think that comes through in this story. What wife could take on the secretary job realistically???Quote:
Imagine a wife writing down anything her husband said to her!
Requoting your lines:
Absolutely! It can go both ways though. Lots of men don't pay any attention to what their wives say, either. It is a universal and timeless joke or observation. Men are different than women; that is for certain! Obviously, this particular couple did not have a good communication, but then that may have been, because of the time this story was set in. Still many don't to this day. Communication takes work and attention.Quote:
To me there is a certain humor here, for it is a rather timeless joke, the fact that women are so often portrayed as not paying attention to their husbands or listening to them.
Quote by Virgil:
Virgil, that is ok, but try and catch up soon, so you don't repeat what we say. I am dying for you to be in this discussion. It should add a lot to the interpretation.Quote:
As usual I'm behind. I haven't read it yet. I'll jump in as soon as I can, but don't wait for me.
oh shoot, you guys have already got started on the new story?
how many pages is it?
SleepyWitch, I am so sorry; I nearly forgot about you joining our group. I only posted the 'introduction' last night...one day ahead of schedule...I was being pressured to do so...all these anxious participants;) . When I mentioned the 'girls against the guys' in my post to Dark Muse, I forgot you were also planning on joining in. If Pensive arrives, we girls will outnumber the guys.;) If not we are even. :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by SleepyWitch
Don't worry; you can catch up easily now. We did not get far into the story yet, and we start (in this thread) with the beginning passages, and progress as we go along. It is less confusing that way, and we can see just how the story builds.
Did you read the story yet? If not the story is about 10, 11, 12 pages - I can't seem to find that part of my book, that fell off the binding (the ending pages)...it is somewhere here hiding from me. The story is not a terribly long one to read, and it is comprised of much 'snappy, witty' dialogue, which makes it go quickly. You will enjoy it. The wife is sort of 'witchy' at times and very humorous. :D Enjoy your reading!:) It is an interesting story.
Yes I agree wit this, and in fact she herself says how incompotent she really is, and this seems to be a source of sone of her resentment, the fact that she knows she could never do the things for her husband that the secerety can and the fact that perhaps in someways she feels a burdon becasue she knows she is not good for any sort of work.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
There are simillar aspcets to the last story in this one I think. As it seems in someways the wife does leave and get away from her husband to escape the fact that there is an asepct of her husbands life she can never truly be a part of and she does not want to have to live with that every day. So she goes away to distract herself.
Yes, this is very true, and I liked the part where it said:Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Though they cannot stand to acutally be together, they are still forever bonded to each other. They can never completely escape one another.Quote:
They had the most sincere regard for one another, and felt, in some odd way, eternally married to one another.
That is indeed interesting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
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Originally Posted by Janine
Yes, that is a very good point. Her conflict with her feelings for her husband can be seen in her view of him here. And the fact that she did turn her slight around to compliment him, as well the last line in which she does justify him by finding the fault in the other women, can reflect some of her views reguarding the secerety and her relation to her husband.
Yes that is very true, and another interesting thing, is that it does mention within the story, how much the husband and wife had gotten along so well before they were married, but now that they are married they only seem to serve to irritate each other. The wife contemplates how she herself can find other men enjoyable and yet not her own husband whom she sees still as being very handsome, and yet she still thinks of him, when she is having her affairs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
I also found this passage interesting
Though they are still married, this brought to mind the sentiment, and relationship that sometimes seem to exisit between divorced couples whom seem to still get along and care for each and yet can never manage to live with each other.Quote:
So they remained friends, in the awful unspoken intimacy of the once-married. Usually each year they went away together for a holiday, and if they had not been man and wife they would have found a great deal of fun and stimulation in one another. The fact that they were married, had been married for the last dozen years, and couldn't live togehter for the last three or four, spoilt them for one another. Each had a private feeling of bitterness about the other.
Yes, that is very trueQuote:
Originally Posted by Janine
ok 12 pages sounds managabel :) but I can only copy the story at univ tomorrow. heheh, but the time difference between Europa and America gives me a little head start :)
SleepWitch,Yes, but doesn't the time difference go the other way? Isn't it later there now than here - it is 5:16 PM here right now. If you are in Europe then it is later there, right? Anyway, when I recently printed out the Chekhov stories, I reduced them in my Word program - I used Ariel 10pt and they came down to a few less pages. You might try that, to save money, or are photocopies free at your university? I have my own printer, but did not want to waste too much ink, on each story. Good luck and hope you can read the story soon. You can catch up easily. I don't think Virgil read it yet either. We will try to go along slowly till everyone is present.Quote:
Originally Posted by SleepyWitch
Maybe I'm getting ahead myself here, but I can't get over the ending. The last two stories end with a reconciliation, but where the previous one was effected through "blood consciousness" this one is reached through derision and sarcasm. The "Blind Man" conclusion is a typical instance of the rejuvenating power in "blood consciousness." This one, however, I don't know what to make of. It seems odd that Lawrence would use the caustic banter of the wife to heal their relationship. Isn't that un-Lawrencelike?
Quark, not sure how to answer this. I do think if you knew more of Lawrence's personal life/biography, you would see he often was pretty caustic or could be. He was never really 'mean' to my knowledge, but he could lash back with witty cynisism to his enemies (and he had a few) and to his public and publishers. I don't think the story surprised me, nearly as much as it has you. I think that, if we take it from the beginning and not jump too far ahead yet, (SleepWitch is still reading it and so is Virgil;) ) we should take a slow look at the whole story and how it develops and see where that ending does lead us.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quark
This story might be just what was stated in something I read earlier - 'a sketch' - in other words, a window into someone's personal life and relationship. The outcome? I really don't know yet. I am hoping that Virgil has some ideas on it. I don't think this story relies much on the 'blood consciousness' ideas we have seen in previous stories....not all do explore that idea. It is more like Chekhov, just showing us the bare facts of what is going on and leaving the conclusion for us to draw. I honestly had a hard time writing up a short description of this story. I can't wait till Virgil joins in and also will be interested in others comments; but I think we should discuss this as the story unravels and worry about the outcome and ending later on. We have a whole month to discuss this story and it is not that long a one.
SPOILERSQuote:
Originally Posted by Janine
So you don't see this as against the grain for Lawrence? This story was definitely much different from last story. That isn't to say that plot was different. That was almost the same: marriage interrupted by an interloper (Bertie, Wexall) which eventually leads to reconciliation. What differs dramatically (well, besides the tone) is the resolution. This story seems to skip over where the reconciliation scene was in the last story. When she sees the bluebirds in the garden I thought here we go again. We're going to have this connection scene in the midst of nature. But, read further, and no there's no such scene here. Instead, it moves into the last conversation in which the one bluebird sarcastically derides the other and drives her off. This caught me a little by surprise. It did seem like an odd departure from what I had come to expect.
Sorry to jump ahead. The ending was just the first thing that came to mind.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Where is our other Lawrence guru anyway?Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
"The Two Bluebirds" does have a sort of Chekhov-like sparseness of detail.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Janine, Quark, DarkMuse.. Great posts... I took a lot of the same ideas from the story as you mentioned already DM....
Quark, do you think in either story there was any real reconciliation at the end... I mean, the last story, only the main character Maurice, is content.. his wife is perplexed, and Bertie is destroyed... this story, The wife has done her ill work, and is satisfied with herself, but the secretary is distraught, and the husband I think is for the most part somewhat annoyed...
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By DarkMuse Yes I agree wit this, and in fact she herself says how incompotent she really is, and this seems to be a source of sone of her resentment, the fact that she knows she could never do the things for her husband that the secerety can and the fact that perhaps in someways she feels a burdon becasue she knows she is not good for any sort of work.
There are simillar aspcets to the last story in this one I think. As it seems in someways the wife does leave and get away from her husband to escape the fact that there is an asepct of her husbands life she can never truly be a part of and she does not want to have to live with that every day. So she goes away to distract herself.
Oh I agee with this too... and the similarity of the wives knowing there is an aspect of their husbands they do not have access to, and seemingly cannot.. but in the last one it was on a deep level, that blood-conscious level... this one it is more of a vanity, an external thing, an illusion, that they put between themselves I think.... she can't be part of it, partly because she thinks it is beneath her,, and she doesn't want to be.. I don't think she is overly interested in her husband outside of the fact he is her husband...
but back to the beginning... I love how Lawrence starts this almost as a fairytale... when the story is so far from a fairytale... "There was a woman who loved her husband---"... just add, "Once upon a time" before that and we have a fairytale... :D .. You don't often see stories beginning with the words, "there was" at least outside of fantasy... And Lawrence uses this kind of fantasy beginning, this simple statement, to great effect in introducing the story... I do find it interesting how he tells the story as though it almost were a fairytale... Does anyone else see that or am I off my rocker (it has been getting kind of rickety recently so I wouldn't be surprised :p )???
And these lines as well from the start impressed me, and gave me a feel for the essence of the relationship
"So they remained friends, in the awful unspoken intimacy of the once-married."
it is quite the cynical statement about the wonders of marriage... as though a friend is the best one could hope for, never a lover, definitely never a passionate lover.. he almost puts an exclamation point on that with this line... they have this conscious intimacy that needs no words, but it is more of a trouble than a good thing coming out of a great love... they love each other at a distance, but as he states later in that same paragraph, they both have private feelings of bitterness towards the other... so it seems they love an idealized version of the other they have in their minds, and can't handle the real, living version when they are together... the wife's idle thoughts about the nature of her husband kind of seem idealistic, idyllic, in a sense... and she only thinks that at a distance... but I think that proximity, and nearness, physical intimacy sour this for her with him, she finds he doesn't live up to that idyllic perfection she builds up in her mind while apart....
I also found it very interesting, that while talking of her love affairs, and paramours, right after she speaks of:
"When a man has an adoring secretary, and you are the man's wife, what are you to do? Not that there was anything 'wrong' - if you know what I mean! - between them. Nothing you could call adultery, to come down to brass tacks. No, no! They were just the young master and his secretary. He dictated to her, she slaved for him and adored him, and the whole thing went on wheels."
so it is okay for her to be adulterous, but not for him??? that is an interesting idea and definitely a very one sided morality...
well, that's a far into the story as I'll go tonight... I need a real sleep tonight,.. for once...:D I look forward to everyone's continued thoughts...
Seriously, I have read enough Lawrence material by now, that I don't see this story against the grain of Lawrence, at all. I guess you have be looking at it from my viewpoint. I don't think Lawrence always ends a story with a solution or reconciliation and if you are expecting that to happen it just doesn't in many of the short stories and sometimes in the novels, as well. We can work up to the ending and talk about the significance of those bluebirds when we get to them. I thought the last line curious and still don't know exactly how to take it. I don't want to jump to that yet...ok?Quote:
Originally Posted by Quark
Yeah....grrrr...it is only April 1st and you are giving away the ending already. I don't see the word 'spoiler' above your post either. Two or three people had not read the story yet.Quote:
Sorry to jump ahead. The ending was just the first thing that came to mind.
Well, I am wondering just where anybody is tonight, let alone Virgil, the 'Lawrence guru'....that is a good name for him!:lol: I thought you guys were all pressuring me to get started, and I was tired last night, but posted the intro anyway.... and now no one seems to be here. Where is everyone - speechless? I think, personally, I am going to call it a night and go read in bed. I am super tired out, anyway. I didn't even watch a movie tonight - and that is highly unusual.Quote:
Where is our other Lawrence guru anyway?
"The Two Bluebirds" does have a sort of Chekhov-like sparseness of detail.[/QUOTE]
I thought so too, but I thought the sadonic tone and the wit reminded me of a Chekhov story. I think that the short story by Lawrence 'Things' - one of my favorites, also has a sort of wit and irony to it. It was the first one we did here, but really we did not discuss it very well. I wish we could redo that discussion. There were not enough participants at the time and it got glazed over. You should read 'Things' Quark, I think you would like it. I also think others who missed it would find it of interest. It is a good story and moves quickly.
Yes, that is true, but than she does have those couple of moments where she seems almost annoyed with her husband that he does not acutally give more intimacy to his seceretray for all she does for him.Quote:
Originally Posted by islandclimber
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That girl-she was only twenty-eight-really slaved herself to skin and bone. She was small and neat, but she was acutally worn out. She did far more work than he did, for she had not only to take those words he uttered, she had to type them out, make three copies, while he was resting.
"What on earth she gets out of it" thought the wife, "I don't know. She's simply worn to the bone for a very poor salery, and he's never kissed her, and never will, if I know anything about him"
Wheather his never kissing her-the secretary, that is-made it worse or better, the wife did not decide. He never kissed anybody. Whether she herself - the wife, that is- wanted to be kissed by him, even that she was not clear about. She rather thought she didn't
Some of the wifes agitation seems to be over the devotion that the women give to her husband, without seeming to get any real benfit in return from him. Though in part this could be, becasue she knows she herself would never be so selflessly devoted to him in such a way. And that she would be incapable of working for him.Quote:
"A very different way!" said the wife ironicaly. "Why don't you make him think about you?" she added, with a sort of a drawl. "On a soft spring afternoon like this, you ought to have him dicating poems to you, about the blue birds of happiness fluttering round your dainty little feet. I know I would, if I were his scretary"
BOO!!! :lol:
Just thought I'd say hello and scare ya'll to see me here! Thought I was dead didn't you?
Not nearly as far behind as I am...in fact, I am not even in the running!Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Hey,grace - BOO, yourself!!! Where have you been hiding? I have been thinking about your lately and wondered where you ran off to. Hey, you should read this story and join the discussion. It is a very short story. We have to talk soon on IM. I miss our late night conversations. Of course, I did not think you were dead - oh horrors! Perish the thought. You probably have been up to no good. I must hear about it all and university life.Quote:
Originally Posted by grace86
Hey, islandclimber, somehow you snuck in, when I was posting and I missed your post, and then checking back, I finally I did read your latest posts and Dark Muse'sposts, as well; but, to be honest with you both, I can't fully function right now or process anyone's post on the story. I need sleep, too...badly.:yawnb:
I do have an answer to your one question, islandclimber, as to the fairytale beginning. We did discuss this a short while back and infact this story is much like one we did a few months ago which starts out "There was a man who loved islands"....same sort of fairytale or fable device. Yes, you are very observant (not crazy at all), and I will expand on this idea tomorrow. Lawrence wrote several stories, in this vain, towards the end of his career and life. More on all this tomorrow, when hopefully, my brain will be working much better. Night all!:)