Evolution vs. Creation

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Originally Posted by okmit

Ancestor,allow me to begin by apologizing for not only failing to to state that my post was reiterated fom arn,(access Research Network),Michael J. Behe FILES but also for my disrespectful report.But tell me,since I am not recieving a grade,royalties,or any acolades from the science community,or any other community--what difference does it make?Several posts have said the scientific community has proven Darwinism and I have attempted to show they have not.Not unlike myself when other posts make a scientific proclamation,they too have failed to disclose(quote)there source.Are they guilty also?On my not being respectful;How does my disrespect for what others think compare to the childish name calling and antagonistic posts that pagma and others have written?I have not said anyone was ignorant or their chosen theology was mumbo jumbo.

Taliesin,you are correct.They have achieved protiens in a LABORATORY condition--that is by intelligent design--Ooops.forgive me,I meant by"intelligent design"--lest I be accused of stealing a phrase.

Dyrwen--if Literature and scientific studies are entirely two different things--I didnt plagerize!And my ref.to you being an athiest was to point out your assesment that nothing is original must imply that whatever we say,think ,or do has its origin with GOD!

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Yes, I am aware that many people on this entire forum quote from other sources but I have seen them state from who. Also when you copy word for word of a whole page that is plagiarism not matter who does it. As a writer it does matter because I would not want someone to copy word for word from a published piece I wrote. That feels like they are taking credit for my hard work plus I always quote others whether they are dead or alive. I expect to get the same respect I give to others and if that is wrong then there is not a thing I can do because it is not me to be disrespectful. If I ever show disrespect then I hope someone points it out to me and I can correct my behavior. I did not say others behavior was right but if it offends you then take it up with them. I would and expect them same treatment from them. Why do you hate atheistist? They have the right to believe that a creator does not exist as much as I have the right to believe in one. I believe that it took both creator and evolution to make the world we live in today. I may be wrong but that is one reason I am on this topic to see what other theories or ideals are out there. Being open minded for me helps me understand and even re-examine my own ideals. No one out to get you just trying to understand other points of view.

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Originally Posted by Dyrwen

It's always plagiarism until you cite your source, which you didn't do until I pointed it out. Now its a moot issue. Your second idea, if you could call it that, is barely put together in a readable line, but it doesn't appear to have much basis in this discussion in any case.


I would like to bring this whole discussion to a point, because well, I dislike beating around the bush. So far things have gone like this: We give you evidence of evolution, you try to disprove it. We ask for evidence of creationism, you give us some idea about it all being "too complex" then ignore the questions I gave in response to that idea.

So, do us a favor and do what no one in the history of the world has done: Give us empirical evidence of creationism; not just evidence trying to disprove evolution. Can you do that? I sure hope so, because I'm tired of all this running around in circles about theology and explanations and science in general if we aren't even going to see the other side of this discussion's evidence.

So, have at it. And if you quote the Bible as a source, I want some tangible evidence found on earth referencable to check your point. i.e. If you were nuts enough to say something like man has one less rib than women, I'd check people around the world to make sure they all had or didn't have the same amount of ribs. (which they do) So please, give us your amazing evidence of creationism, since somehow the piles of evidence covering the walls of this place aren't good enough for you. Really. Go on.

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Easy partner--your getting much to excited.This is a rap fest that can only end in a hung jury due to a lack of evidence from ANY side!And contrary to what Ancestor thinks of me I dont hate anyone.Thats a mistake I made 35 years ago and will not repeat(learned behavior.)Back to the subject;I dont know why you find it necessary too call me immature,ignorant,or thief but a wise man once said,quote"The man that angers you,controls you."

Check out this thought;God is knowledge,the universal solution to all problems.That would explain idiot sav'ant.child prodigy,CoCo,and even why we care about this subject!

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Originally Posted by Ancestor

Why do you hate atheistist? They have the right to believe that a creator does not exist as much as I have the right to believe in one. I believe that it took both creator and evolution to make the world we live in today. I may be wrong but that is one reason I am on this topic to see what other theories or ideals are out there. Being open minded for me helps me understand and even re-examine my own ideals.

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Ancestor, where were you when the smoking guns came after me for basically the same beliefs? I was begining to think I was on my own out here!

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Originally Posted by okmit

Easy partner--your getting much to excited.This is a rap fest that can only end in a hung jury due to a lack of evidence from ANY side!And contrary to what Ancestor thinks of me I dont hate anyone.Thats a mistake I made 35 years ago and will not repeat(learned behavior.)Back to the subject;I dont know why you find it necessary too call me immature,ignorant,or thief but a wise man once said,quote"The man that angers you,controls you."

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If I were angry, I wouldn't be posting. I'm merely being direct with you, rather than rambling on about whatever pops up in the thread. We've given you fossil records, radiometric dating, and the ability to watch animals with shorter lifespans evolve over generations. You've given us: "God did it. It's all too complex not to be." I give you empirical evidence, which you supposedly know about, yet you give me squat. I'm just looking for some evidence of creationism that isn't some hoity toity lovey dubby answer of "look into your heart" or "god made it all because god is good, etc". Just a little proof, something at least partially testable, ya know? But if you're not going to play ball, like every other person I've asked this question to, then don't. Not my problem, but I at least like to ask, just in case there is some evidence out there that finally popped up for creationism. Nice to see there still isn't though.

By the way, I only called you those things when you claimed in a shorter terminology that science was the root of all evil because of your years in the service, which somehow also meant that evolution was wrong because of it. If you had been less outlandish about the subject and addressed it as you normally did, for its supposed faults, rather than its implications that you've generalized over, I wouldn't have made such statements.

And Pendragon, I haven't seen you claim you hated atheists, so yeah.. who knows where that came from, maybe your "tone" came off harsh or something. You do tend to have an odd sort of believe being espoused, which is hard to be certain of, since it looks sometimes like you disagree with evolution, but others like you don't. Guess you're just more capable of taking both sides at once than I.

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Originally Posted by okmit

Easy partner--your getting much to excited.This is a rap fest that can only end in a hung jury due to a lack of evidence from ANY side!And contrary to what Ancestor thinks of me I dont hate anyone.Thats a mistake I made 35 years ago and will not repeat(learned behavior.)Back to the subject;I dont know why you find it necessary too call me immature,ignorant,or thief but a wise man once said,quote"The man that angers you,controls you."

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I apologize for the error I made and that it should have read: Why do you dislike the concept atheistism? I miss phrased myself and I do apologize to anyone that I may have offended I meant not to.

I personally have for most of life wondered about how life truly began on Earth. I often thought about the Bible's version of Adam and Eve along starting out as organic ooze. I may not know for sure which of the two is true but there is evidence of neanderthal's roaming the earth. All the skulls that have been found showing the differents stages of man is proof of evolution taking place. Since I do believe in a higher being I do not see why we could not have started out as a creation which evolved through out time. Surely we must have evolved to meet the changing elements of the Earth. The Earth has also evolved since the creation of Earth and so why wouldn't we. I apologize if I went over the same things but this has me heated and I tend to repeat myself. I here out curiousity but I see that some of us and I won't name names are taking this way too seriously. I have enjoy reading others theories and belief's and it truly has helped me to grow.

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This quoted from this webpage-Prominent Hominid Fossils
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/specimen.html

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/taung_small.gif
"Taung Child", Australopithecus africanus
Discovered by Raymond Dart in 1924 at Taung in South Africa (Dart 1925). The find consisted of a full face, teeth and jaws, and an endocranial cast of the brain. It is between 2 and 3 million years old, but it and most other South African fossils are found in cave deposits that are difficult to date. The teeth of this skull showed it to be from an infant about 5 or 6 years old (it is now believed that australopithecines matured faster than humans, and that the Taung child was about 3). The brain size was 410 cc, and would have been around 440 cc as an adult. The large rounded brain, canine teeth which were small and not apelike, and the position of the foramen magnum(*) convinced Dart that this was a bipedal human ancestor, which he named Australopithecus africanus (African southern ape). Although the discovery became famous, Dart's interpretation was rejected by the scientific community until the mid-1940's, following the discovery of other similar fossils.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/wt40000_small.jpg
KNM-WT 40000, Kenyanthropus platyops
Discovered by Justus Erus in 1999 at Lomekwi in Kenya (Leakey et al. 2001, Lieberman 2001). Estimated age is about 3.5 million years. This is a mostly complete, but heavily distorted, cranium with a large, flat face and small teeth. The brain size is similar to that of australopithecines. This fossil has considerable similarities with, and is possibly related to, the habiline fossil ER 1470.

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Here are two skulls that are examples that some kind of evolution took place and how similar we were to apes at the time. Note is does not prove Darwin's theory but it does not disprove it either.

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Originally Posted by Dyrwen

And Pendragon, I haven't seen you claim you hated atheists, so yeah.. who knows where that came from, maybe your "tone" came off harsh or something. You do tend to have an odd sort of believe being espoused, which is hard to be certain of, since it looks sometimes like you disagree with evolution, but others like you don't. Guess you're just more capable of taking both sides at once than I.

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Why hate someone for doing the same thing I'm doing, which is standing up for what they believe? Besides, if I say I believe the Bible, and then hate people, that doesn't scan right, ya know? I left a quote somewhere above from Thomas Jefferson. I guess people do think me strange, but I learned to read before I was 5. As we were dirt poor, and devoutly religious (somewhat fanatical wouldn't be too harsh) I read the Bible through many times. Then I began to ask questions, because I couldn't square the way people lived with what I read in the Bible. Needless to say, I soon got in hot water. As a teenager, I tried all kinds of philosophy and studied different religions (heresy to my church!) But the crux of it all was that after all the questions and searching, I came to belive the Bible--just not as my church preached it. Abraham Linclon once said that when a great man died, one man imitated the way he dressed, one the way he carried his sword, one his gait, and one his matter of speech, BUT NOT ONE TRIED TO BE THE GOOD MAN THAT HE WAS. That was the problem I found. People talk a good sermon but fail to LIVE a good sermon. Love must be unconditionial. I can call you "friend" and mean it, atheist or no, and talk to you without a lot of finger pointing and name calling. It's pointless anyway. You won't change me, and I'm unlikely to change you, but it can make a lively conversation! Take care, bud! Dragon out.

“I’ve been trying to think of an experiment to prove that there aren’t any hobgoblins at the bottom of my garden. It’s tricky, especially given that these hobgoblins may not be of material form. So, at the moment, I cannot prove or disprove that there are hobgoblins at the bottom of my garden. I don’t really think there are any, but that’s a position of faith, I suppose.”

(Ed Hollox, Guardian)

I am reminded of this little poem:

As I was walking up the stair,
I met a man who wasn't there.
He wasn't there again today.
I wish, I wish he'd go away.

~Hugh Mearns

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Originally Posted by okmit

Thank you for the pearl of wisdom--in my ignorance I thought it was due to human greed,and pomposity.The last Holy war I fought in was in Viet Nam--excuse me that one wasnt about religion.I was to young for the Korean crusade--no no,that one had nothing to do with religion either--the two world wars are exempt.But I'm sure your correct anyhow.I did have belief when I went that I could assist in stopping the "Domino Effect."That would be the Evil spread of Communism(common ownership of property.)Alas,after returning home(minus my right leg)my Gov. seized My Private Property and sold it for back taxes!!Draat,my faith and service to man failed me again.If you put your FAITH in man,your going too get screwd whether its a scientist,Governor,or a"holy man."
Thanks again,okmit

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Brrr, you've got an axe to grind obviously and one that certainly deserves a good grinding, but just because some wars aren't about religion doesn't mean they all aren't. You think holy wars are old hat, therefore not relevant? The people who blew up the Twin Towers may not have agreed with you.

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Originally Posted by atiguhya padma

“I’ve been trying to think of an experiment to prove that there aren’t any hobgoblins at the bottom of my garden. It’s tricky, especially given that these hobgoblins may not be of material form. So, at the moment, I cannot prove or disprove that there are hobgoblins at the bottom of my garden. I don’t really think there are any, but that’s a position of faith, I suppose.”

(Ed Hollox, Guardian)

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I think Wittgenstein once proved by logic to Betrand Russell that there was a hippopotamus in the room, though neither of them could see one.

Just because something cannot be seen doesn't mean that it never existed or could exist today. Yes it would be nice to have evidence you can see with your eyes and hold in your hand but that is not always going to be possible. I have had some experiences that I cannot prove by showing you but I know them to be true. What do you do? Just keep seeking and sooner or later you may find what you could not back then.

Dragons? Unicorns? Fairies? Trolls? and all other mythical beings?

btw, first dragon spotted is spoken for.

Some scientisits think there is evidence that the dragons really did exsist some kind of desendent of he dinasours, I think.