Printable View
<You cant catch a mouse with just the platform and then catch a few more by adding the spring.All the pieces have to be in place before you catch any mice. >
This assumes that at all stages of development, the goal remains the same. This is a false assumption.
Halt!
I think that a point is missing here.
Creationism is a belief, nobody could disagree.
Darwinism is a hypothesis, an explanation, not exactly a theory.
The Reason is simple: you cannot think of a way to contradict evolution and more, you cannot make reliable predictions on evolution.
For a Physicist these two lacking features undermine a theory theoretically as well as experimentally.
Anyway creationism is still a step below, since it isn't any kind of explanation, that is, it does not include a huge amount of phenomena, which Darwinism does.
And, anyway, you must remember that Evolutionism was worked out from the statistical point of view, typical of the 19th century; just like, more or less, Maxwell and Marx, and the three shared the same beard!!!
OK, I see you misunderstand me. The point I was trying to make is that whether we accept creationism or evolution sooner or later it is going to come down to accepting something without knowing beyond a shadow of a doubt. When I say I question everything, then that makes me search for WHY I believe it. I certainly believe in the resurrection (kudus for using the correct word, the rapture does not appear in the Bible!) and a lot of the other "magical mumbo-jumbo" I believe you termed it. But not without question. Blind faith is no faith. You must ask yourself why you believe these things as opposed to others. :) That's all.Quote:
Originally Posted by atiguhya padma
I've read Mendel as well, and I don't think you can discount his genetic work. No, I'm not one of these "It's all a giant conspiracy!" nutballs. Science certainly is responsible for many of the things we enjoy, this computer we are communicating on for example. But life is God's domain. I do not believe science will ever reproduce the spark that gives life by artifical means. And you're not reading me right. I do believe that animals and man have evolved as I stated BEFORE, simply that God created them in the beginning. Cataclysims have changed the Earth since and EVERYTHING has had to adapt to survive. If man had never changed since Eden, there would only be one race worldwide, correct? So man has changed. The supercontinent broke up. In Genesis, it's called "dry land". There was continential drift. Man had to adapt to survive. New races of man appeared. Evolution? Now, do I disbelieve everything because I question? I saw none of this. No other explaination fits. Sermon over.Quote:
Originally Posted by blp
Whew, I stirred the proverbial hornet's nest! Math is an exact science, which you can prove. Evolution is a theory, which is "best guess" at best. Do I think scientist delibertly lie to us? NO, I AM NOT A CONSPIRACY NUT! I am simply saying that sooner or later you will have to accept something without seeing it for yourself, be it religious or scientific. By definition, that is faith.Quote:
Originally Posted by Taliesin
Yes, I even question the existence of God and "the creation theory", as you term it, that's why I belive it. Protiens produced under laboratory conditions? Possibly, but nothing that can reproduce itself. The spark of life remains a mystery. They can clone, grow a baby in a test-tube for in-vetro (pardon my spelling, I'm deslexic), but life cannot be give back to dead tissue, even if that body has nothing really wrong with it except it's not alive. Many a doctor has helplessly drawn the sheet over a face having done all science can do. When God calls time...
[QUOTE=Dyrwen]Unless God himself came down and said "Evolution is true, knock off all the crap about me doing it in 6 days" I doubt you'd believe anything. Once you call science a religion your whole basis for reality goes out the window. It's only a religion to the ignorant person that claims science is somehow infallible. Science admits to being wrong all the time, but they also reiterate being right many times over as well in varying arrays of the world around us.
Not everyone follows science blindly on their findings, as atiguhya padma said: "There is plenty of evidence for evolution: fruitflies, moths and bacteria all supply evidence of it. Take any creature that has a short lifespan, play around with its environment in specific ways and you will see evolution in action. Why do you think viruses are so good at combatting antibiotics?" There are plenty of things anyone can try to prove evolution, but some people would rather dispute it outright in favor of some magical sky pixie doing the job of their thinking it through dialectically for them.
[QUOTE]While everybody was blasting me for calling science a religion, did any of you take the time to notice that I DO believe in elolution, I just believe that God created everything first. And I can think for myself, thank you very much, or did you bother to read the part about me questioning everything? I'd don't object to being called names, heaven knows I've had my share and expect to get more before I pass the pale, but at least get the facts right! There are plenty of things to question about portions of the evolution theory, but people would rather brush them under the rug and extol the points that tend to prove it. The reliablity of carbon dating is certainly questionable, for example. The same samples tested at different times give widely varying readings. Which is right?
Dyrwen clearly doesn't need any help here, but I must add, blame all the people who start wars and kill each other over religion. And bear that destructive effect of belief in mind, Okmit, next time you villify people for lack of belief.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dyrwen
[QUOTE=Pendragon][QUOTE=Dyrwen]Unless God himself came down and said "Evolution is true, knock off all the crap about me doing it in 6 days" I doubt you'd believe anything. Once you call science a religion your whole basis for reality goes out the window. It's only a religion to the ignorant person that claims science is somehow infallible. Science admits to being wrong all the time, but they also reiterate being right many times over as well in varying arrays of the world around us.
Not everyone follows science blindly on their findings, as atiguhya padma said: "There is plenty of evidence for evolution: fruitflies, moths and bacteria all supply evidence of it. Take any creature that has a short lifespan, play around with its environment in specific ways and you will see evolution in action. Why do you think viruses are so good at combatting antibiotics?" There are plenty of things anyone can try to prove evolution, but some people would rather dispute it outright in favor of some magical sky pixie doing the job of their thinking it through dialectically for them.
Ah, well, we guess that we agree with you in a point - there are very little things that one can be sure of (like CES or a=a).Quote:
While everybody was blasting me for calling science a religion, did any of you take the time to notice that I DO believe in elolution, I just believe that God created everything first. And I can think for myself, thank you very much, or did you bother to read the part about me questioning everything? I'd don't object to being called names, heaven knows I've had my share and expect to get more before I pass the pale, but at least get the facts right! There are plenty of things to question about portions of the evolution theory, but people would rather brush them under the rug and extol the points that tend to prove it. The reliablity of carbon dating is certainly questionable, for example. The same samples tested at different times give widely varying readings. Which is right?
But well, as Baddad said, when we think that the world or complex life needs reason, then why doesn't the reason need another reason, for it seems that it has to be more complex. Or is God a very simple thing, much simpler than these complex structures and doesn't therefore need a reason?
We are afraid that we have lost your original belief: do you believe that the Big Bang was caused by God?
Or that God created primitive life and that everything has evolved from there to here.
Or that what is written in the Bible plus that things have evolved a little?
The first two theories seem quite OK. The third seems to have more holes in it. What evidence is there that the Bible is the word of God, i.e?
This one will run and run.
Pendragon, the problem I have with your position is that Darwin's theory is built around randomness. Just to spell it out for those not clear about it, the process of natural selection is the process by which some of the millions of mutations that happen to organisms for no reason at all, by accident, survive because they render the organism more suited to its environment. Numerous other mutations occur that do not survive. This is what is meant by survival of the fittest - fitness for specific environments, not strength per se.
I'm an atheist and even I've felt upset at time about the lack of plan or meaning suggested by this process. But I do believe it.
How can one square this with the idea of a creator? Did the creator start the process with single cells and let it rip randomly, genuinely unaware of what would result? Did he/she know what was going to develop? If there was a plan, why have all the random mutations, the majority of which served no purpose and did not survive? Just to throw us off the scent? Seems silly. Much as many creationists find it hard to believe that the complexity of even small organisms could have resulted from anything but intelligent design, I find it very difficult to imagine any entity being capable of working out the programme for creating life over billions of years, random mutations and all and hard to imagine why they'd take such a circuitous route. Ah well, more things in heaven and earth than are dreamed of in our philosophy perhaps. But still, increasingly, not that many, because science has it's explanations not just for the development of organisms, but also the matter from which life was created. I'd be interested to know how far back you imagine the act of God that set it all off happened? I'd also be interested to hear your answer to Dyrwen's 'who created the creator' question. The only time I've asked a creationist this, he responded that this was 'a matter for faith' - which sounds like denial to me.
Interesting article that ran in the New York Times on scientists who do and do not believe in God, intelligent design, etc.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/23/na...=5070&emc=eta1
Ancestor,allow me to begin by apologizing for not only failing to to state that my post was reiterated fom arn,(access Research Network),Michael J. Behe FILES but also for my disrespectful report.But tell me,since I am not recieving a grade,royalties,or any acolades from the science community,or any other community--what difference does it make?Several posts have said the scientific community has proven Darwinism and I have attempted to show they have not.Not unlike myself when other posts make a scientific proclamation,they too have failed to disclose(quote)there source.Are they guilty also?On my not being respectful;How does my disrespect for what others think compare to the childish name calling and antagonistic posts that pagma and others have written?I have not said anyone was ignorant or their chosen theology was mumbo jumbo.
Taliesin,you are correct.They have achieved protiens in a LABORATORY condition--that is by intelligent design--Ooops.forgive me,I meant by"intelligent design"--lest I be accused of stealing a phrase.
Dyrwen--if Literature and scientific studies are entirely two different things--I didnt plagerize!And my ref.to you being an athiest was to point out your assesment that nothing is original must imply that whatever we say,think ,or do has its origin with GOD!
Thank you for the pearl of wisdom--in my ignorance I thought it was due to human greed,and pomposity.The last Holy war I fought in was in Viet Nam--excuse me that one wasnt about religion.I was to young for the Korean crusade--no no,that one had nothing to do with religion either--the two world wars are exempt.But I'm sure your correct anyhow.I did have belief when I went that I could assist in stopping the "Domino Effect."That would be the Evil spread of Communism(common ownership of property.)Alas,after returning home(minus my right leg)my Gov. seized My Private Property and sold it for back taxes!!Draat,my faith and service to man failed me again.If you put your FAITH in man,your going too get screwd whether its a scientist,Governor,or a"holy man."Quote:
Originally Posted by blp
Thanks again,okmit
It's always plagiarism until you cite your source, which you didn't do until I pointed it out. Now its a moot issue. Your second idea, if you could call it that, is barely put together in a readable line, but it doesn't appear to have much basis in this discussion in any case.Quote:
Originally Posted by okmit
I would like to bring this whole discussion to a point, because well, I dislike beating around the bush. So far things have gone like this: We give you evidence of evolution, you try to disprove it. We ask for evidence of creationism, you give us some idea about it all being "too complex" then ignore the questions I gave in response to that idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by okmit
So, do us a favor and do what no one in the history of the world has done: Give us empirical evidence of creationism; not just evidence trying to disprove evolution. Can you do that? I sure hope so, because I'm tired of all this running around in circles about theology and explanations and science in general if we aren't even going to see the other side of this discussion's evidence.
So, have at it. And if you quote the Bible as a source, I want some tangible evidence found on earth referencable to check your point. i.e. If you were nuts enough to say something like man has one less rib than women, I'd check people around the world to make sure they all had or didn't have the same amount of ribs. (which they do) So please, give us your amazing evidence of creationism, since somehow the piles of evidence covering the walls of this place aren't good enough for you. Really. Go on.
Here is where we get interesting. My own concept of God is that He hides in the very simplicity of His nature. I believe it was philosopher David Hume who stated, and I paraphraze since it's been awhile that "God is so far beyond human understanding that the very idea of trying to understand Him is ludicrous." I'm not certain I agree with that. As to who created the Creator, I believe He has always existed. It may sound like a cop-out, but it's what I believe. Here's a handy quote from Thomas Jefferson that all of us could use: "The legitimate powers of the government extend to such acts as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say that there are 20 Gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."Quote:
Or is God a very simple thing, much simpler than these complex structures and doesn't therefore need a reason?
We are afraid that we have lost your original belief: do you believe that the Big Bang was caused by God?
Or that God created primitive life and that everything has evolved from there to here.
Or that what is written in the Bible plus that things have evolved a little?
The first two theories seem quite OK. The third seems to have more holes in it. What evidence is there that the Bible is the word of God, i.e?
My friend, for I have had atheists as friends before, you are certainly entitled to your belief. In the long run, we both will come to the final day of our lives. I'm prepared to die for what I believe, and I do not fear the darkness. I've been a Christian for years. Now, I'm disabled from an illness. I could spend my days asking why? Or I can look ahead to what I believe awaits. My choice. This world doesn't make a lot of sense to me either. But it's the one I have to live in, so I go on believing and existing. Someone asked what proof I have that the Bible is the Word of God. To be perfectly truthful, none that they would accept, because it cannot be scientifically measured or tested. Hey, I'm honest. Try getting that out of most creationists. Take care. Dragon out.Quote:
Originally Posted by blp