Richard III

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by prendrelemick

(Whispers to Fifth) I'll try and work in a mention of Charles (King of Bling) the II, then we can post the clip.

---

I like your plan.

On the basis that someone mentioned the Aztecs:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sancho

If we could open it up to the Spaniards, I’m going to put my money on Hernán Cortés. He was smart, cool headed, and totally ruthless. He sailed out of Cuba a mere 12 hours before the viceroy was to arrest him (meaning he couldn’t go back). Sailed to and discovered Mexico, claimed it for the King of Spain (brilliantly cutting out the aforementioned viceroy back in Havana). Traveled across land and made contact with the Aztec Empire. Became a guest of Montezuma in their Capitol city of Tenochtitlan (psst! He was casing the joint). Left and then returned with a handful Spaniards and bunch of natives who were pissed at the Aztecs – and destroyed the Aztec Empire, renaming Tenochtitlan Mexico City, and showing the world what a conquistador with an attitude was capable of.

---

(thanks Sancho - though wasn't Cortez aided by disease in his 'campaign' against the Aztecs) this of course brings to mind the following little number http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBCjFlYVHls

and also reminds us of those other great South American race the Incas in which case surely we must mentioned Patchacuti, who would probably have kicked Cortez's bottom which leads neatly on to this little number... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51aHb_U8Zr0

and let's not forget the Roman Emperor smackdown, which has already been solved http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Nh-zSMzqo

There were three great empires in Central and South America: the Aztecs and the Incas sandwiched the Mayans.

No doubt, a lot of things came together in the conquistador's favor, including the confusion for the Aztecs surrounding the end of time on their calendar. < That's a bad description; the Aztec calendar is circular, like the circle if life, like the seasons, but at the top of their calendar when everything regenerates, there are some unknowns. And that's when Cortes showed up, in full armor, on a massive armored horse, with huge war dogs (mastiffs, I think). The Aztecs didn't even think he was human. It's possible they thought, well this is it, I reckon. Turns out it was.

At any rate Cortes was stone cold, vastly out numbered, and fighting on somebody else's turf.

It occurs to me, though, that we're going down a slippery slope if we list every badass in history.

Gengis Khan. Haha, whoops.

Ah well, since we’ve already gone down this road, I feel pretty good about Hernán Cortés against any three guys in a cage match or an Octagon smack down.

“In this corner we have The Master of Disaster, Conqueror of the Aztec Empire, fighting with the Sangre de Christo, El Luchador, Everybody make some noise for The Mexi-Cannon, Hernán Cortés!
http://i971.photobucket.com/albums/a...psa6652caf.jpg

Ok its conspiracy theory time.

1/ A letter in the Independent from some bloke, said that the mitochondrial DNA of the skeleton could match that of most of the people in Liecester at that time.
2/ The bones had definite female characteristics.
3/ The carbon dating was wrong initially, untill adjusted for a high shell fish diet. How can we be sure what his/her diet was?
4/ Leicester Council spent £1000,000 on their preparations BEFORE the results of the DNA came through, possibly putting presure on -
5/ Leicester University who had also committed significant resources to the project and they were the sole arbiters of the is it, or isn't it Richard question.
6/ There was an overwhelming desire for it to be Richard, even the the scientists may not have been immune to this.
7/ There has been no peer reveiw of the academic conclusions.

Musicology would be proud of me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by prendrelemick

Ok its conspiracy theory time.

1/ A letter in the Independent from some bloke, said that the mitochondrial DNA of the skeleton could match that of most of the people in Liecester at that time.
2/ The bones had definite female characteristics.
3/ The carbon dating was wrong initially, untill adjusted for a high shell fish diet. How can we be sure what his/her diet was?
4/ Leicester Council spent £1000,000 on their preparations BEFORE the results of the DNA came through, possibly putting presure on -p
5/ Leicester University who had also committed significant resources to the project and they were the sole arbiters of the is it, or isn't it Richard question.
6/ There was an overwhelming desire for it to be Richard, even the the scientists may not have been immune to this.
7/ There has been no peer reveiw of the academic conclusions.

Musicology would be proud of me.

---

To be him or not to be him. That is the question...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by prendrelemick

Ok its conspiracy theory time.

1/ A letter in the Independent from some bloke, said that the mitochondrial DNA of the skeleton could match that of most of the people in Liecester at that time.
2/ The bones had definite female characteristics.
3/ The carbon dating was wrong initially, untill adjusted for a high shell fish diet. How can we be sure what his/her diet was?
4/ Leicester Council spent £1000,000 on their preparations BEFORE the results of the DNA came through, possibly putting presure on -
5/ Leicester University who had also committed significant resources to the project and they were the sole arbiters of the is it, or isn't it Richard question.
6/ There was an overwhelming desire for it to be Richard, even the the scientists may not have been immune to this.
7/ There has been no peer reveiw of the academic conclusions.

Musicology would be proud of me.

---

They sound like reasonable objections. However it would have been a rare woman with those sort of battle injuries.

I wondered about the mitochondrial DNA. It is inherited mostly unchanged down the female line except for mutations that are assumed to occur at a constant rate. I would have thought a lot of people could have very similar DNA, but that Richard's great-great nephew mitochondrial DNA might not be exactly the same due to mutation. I don't know much about it though.

I wondered about the shellfish diet too. It would be fair to assume a royal would eat more meat than a peasant from those days, but shellfish? I suppose York is close to the sea.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kev67

They sound like reasonable objections. However it would have been a rare woman with those sort of battle injuries.

---

Knitting injuries?


That spine looked a bit alien to me, an all.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by prendrelemick

Ok its conspiracy theory time...

...Musicology would be proud of me.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kev67

...However it would have been a rare woman with those sort of battle injuries.

...

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by prendrelemick

Knitting injuries?


That spine looked a bit alien to me, an all.

---

Joan of Arc ?

Historical records indicate that she met her…ruin in Rouen, but some contend that her bones were not reduced to ashes.
Is it possible that this “French toast” found her way under the Leicester car park?
The spine is from France which explains your alien appearance.

“Rouen” might explain the “R” marking.

Hmm you've got the idea there Gilliat. The important thing is never let facts get in the way of a good conspiracy theory.


I couldn't help noticing that the leader of project car park looked suspiciously like Henry VIII - perhaps a decendant? Could the whole thing be another scurrilous Tudor Plot - the ultimate indignity heaped upon Richard, having him usurped even in death by a crook- backed woman.

Well you know the rhyme:

Richard of York gave battle in vain.

They said it was Bosworth so....

Another unpopular Plantagenet was King John.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=riUWuTpZfZ0



Just found the "Deadliest Warrior series" on utube, similar idea but a bit serious. How about George Washington Vs Napoleon!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&fe...&v=Pl_MLGMXWUw

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by prendrelemick

Another unpopular Plantagenet was King John....

---

But at least we know where he was buried - he's in Worcester Cathedral. He was apparently so unpopular that most churches were rather reluctant to take him but Worcester which was a monastic establishment as was the final resting place of Richard III eventually did the charitable thing and found him a spot not too far from the High Altar, again like Richard.

It's surprising who you find in England's Medieval Cathederals. That's one of the reasons I like going round them, among all the the forgotten Bishops and Barons you can stumble across a significant historical figure. Without them a Cathedral is just a pile of stones, but if you find, say, King John buried there, and you can reach out and touch his sepulchre, the whole history of the place and of the Nation feels much more real. (I was going to say comes alive but that doesn't fit)

I was having a chuckle at your King John video which led me to a Roger Miller song I like to sing in the shower regarding Nottingham. His mentioning of Prince John and taxation, led me to Richard I.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSXM3Zg0eBo

While listening to this^, I learned that Richard I was divvied up between Rouen,Châlus and Anjou.
(Note the coincidence with Rouen and Joan of Arc)

From wikipedia:
"Richard's heart was buried at Rouen in Normandy, the entrails in Châlus (where he died) and the rest of his body was buried at the feet of his father at Fontevraud Abbey in Anjou"

The entrails and lights were often buried near to where they died in order to stop the body from becoming "noisome" during its royal progression to the final resting place.

The heart thing was fairly common too. The Crusaders used pop the heart of a fallen comrade into a lead pot and send it back home for burial.

Whilst we're on the topic of getting heads of state to fight, the resignation of Emperor Palpantine... sorry, Pope Benedict XVI... made me wonder who the pluckiest Pope in history might be. Any contenders? My money would be on either Alexander VI or Benedict IX...

Julius II was known as The Fearsome Pope. So I'd back him.

It seems the proposed tomb for Richard (designed by The Ricardians) has the Lancastrian rose on it! More indignity heaped upon the dead King. You can tell the difference when not in colour, by the position of the sepels.


Are those Tudors are still at it, and have infiltrated The Richard the III society.



Also in the news this morning, Macbeth. He was a sweet cuddly thoroughly decent chap after all.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by prendrelemick

Yer, that William was a right bastard ! (medieval joke)

---

I believe he was originally known as William the Bastard, at least according to an historical novel I read about one of his bodyguards.

Anyway, an article in New Scientist pointed out that at the press conference, the University of Leicester spokesperson used legal terminology, "beyond reasonable doubt." New Scientist says science establishes truth differently to law courts, and that Leicester University's findings have to be peer-reviewed.

By the way, King Henry I is buried somewhere in Reading. He was buried under Reading Abbey, but, when Henry VIII disolved the monastaries, his body could not be found. According to Wikipedia, the best guess is that he is buried under a nearby school.

king Henry I is missing! Send for Time Team. The most pertinent thing I remember about him is that he had about 29 children, but only one Royal male heir who was lost at sea in the famous White Ship.

That led to all sorts of trouble and strife between King Stephen and the Empress Matilda, Until Henry II came along and was probably the most powerful King we've ever had.

I think even the Time Team would have a problem finding him. The school he is supposed to be under, St James School, does not seem to exist any more. There's a St James Church close by, but no school. It turns out Henry I was buried in more than one place. His brains, bowels, heart, eyes and tongue were all buried in Rouen in France. The rest of him was buried in a silver coffin in Reading Abbey.

http://www.berkshirehistory.com/villages/reading.html

I must say, those Plantagenets are what I regard as proper kings. English history tends to start at 1066, so the Saxon kings don't count. The Tudors were interlopers. The Stuarts were Scottish interlopers. The rest since then have been German interlopers. None of them did any proper fighting since the Restoration nor any proper ruling. Whenever there was a break in the line of succession, Parliament would invite someone from another country to be king or queen. Just so long as they weren't Catholics. Queen Victoria should never have been queen. George IV had children but Parliament would not recognise his marriage because she was Catholic, so the children were considered illegitimate. Henry VIII has a lot to answer for.

It gets even better. Mrs P informs me his body (or what remained of it) was put inside the carcase of a bull and shipped to England for burial - it was the old problem of the noisome corpse again - though how that was supposed to help I'm not sure.

I should explain Mrs P is a big Jean Plaidy fan, she has read all her historical books and they go from William I to Victoria.

I think William of Orange was the last English King to lead his troops to battle. He was a proffesional soldier before he was invited to rule in England in place of the Catholic James the second.

Given recent the UK parliamentary vote on 'same sex marriages', might we not see a similar arrangement should an heir to the throne be so inclined ?

I don't reckon so. The only bar to the throne is the catholic faith and there are plenty of heirs around especially as from now on female offspring will have equal precedence.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by prendrelemick

...used pop the heart of a fallen comrade into a lead pot...

---

Do you suppose that is where we get the phrase "heavy heart"?
"It is with heavy heart that I inform you of Richard's passing...oh and here ya go, the heart's in the pot"

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kev67

...His brains, bowels, heart, eyes and tongue were all buried in Rouen in France....

---

Another reference to Rouen, what's behind the French Connection? Norman?

edit

I meant to add that today (Feb 16) is the anniversary of Howard Carters discovery of King Tut's burial chamber in 1923.
This led me to wonderin', have there been any mentions of curses befalling those who tamper with Richard III?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gilliatt Gurgle

Do you suppose that is where we get the phrase "heavy heart"?
"It is with heavy heart that I inform you of Richard's passing...oh and here ya go, the heart's in the pot"




Another reference to Rouen, what's behind the French Connection? Norman?

---

The French connection remained strong after 1066. The Pantagenets were French and regarded English as an inferior language, and their culture of reference was France. King Richard The Lionheart, for example, spent a grand total of 6 months in England, and I think that was to raise taxes for the crusades. Most of them didn't speak English, and it was only until later that the monarchy invested culturally in England and the English. We still have an overhang of French sophistication in our attitudes today which all started with William. It is reflected in the language as well - the French chef being regarded more highly than the English word cook, and has led to differentiation of the roles into restaurant standard and bog standard.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by prendrelemick

I don't reckon so. The only bar to the throne is the catholic faith and there are plenty of heirs around especially as from now on female offspring will have equal precedence.

---

What a shame. It would have given a whole new meaning to 'Queen of England.'

Okay, Emil, you cracked me up again.

Modern English is rife with examples like Cook/Chef: Pig/Pork, Cow/Beef, Food/Cuisine, Earth/Terrain.

Or so I'm told.

Talking of Time Team, I used to love Time Team, brilliant stuff. Tony Robinson, some badly dressed archaealcoholics with beards, big trenches, 'geo-fizz?' Roman stuff and computer and artistic reconstructions. What more do you want for Sunday night? (Apart from Heartbeat of course.) Fantastic!

Quote:

---

Modern English is rife with examples like Cook/Chef: Pig/Pork, Cow/Beef, Food/Cuisine, Earth/Terrain.

---

Cow/beef/horse is another one...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Paulclem

The French connection remained strong after 1066. The Pantagenets were French and regarded English as an inferior language, and their culture of reference was France. King Richard The Lionheart, for example, spent a grand total of 6 months in England, and I think that was to raise taxes for the crusades. Most of them didn't speak English, and it was only until later that the monarchy invested culturally in England and the English. We still have an overhang of French sophistication in our attitudes today which all started with William. It is reflected in the language as well - the French chef being regarded more highly than the English word cook, and has led to differentiation of the roles into restaurant standard and bog standard.

---

Thanks Paul.

I'm learning a lot about Engish history from this thread.
My parents shouldn't have pulled me out of Cathlolic school so early.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Neely

Cow/beef/horse is another one...

---

Haha! I got a good laugh at that one. Thanks

Haha.

We have a word over here that would've prevented all of the hullabaloo over there:

Critter

Hmm, but I suppose you don't want to go mixing Varmint in with your Critter burgers.

GG: In those days France was one of a collection of states - France, Normandy, Navarre, Maine-Anjou and more. Rouen was the capital of Normandy and the seat of the Norman Kings of England. So it's fitting that bits of them were sent there to be buried.

The word Norman is just a corruption of Norseman or Northman and Normandy was a Viking kingdom just like the North of England was. William the conqueror had as good a claim to the English throne as One-in-the-eye Harold as he was related to our Danish Kings.


Sancho: That is genius.

I read that Henry VIII had the last abbot of Reading hung, drawn and quartered for high treason - nice! I wondered whether that had anything to do with the body of King Henry I and his silver coffin having gone missing. However, Wikipedia says the abbot was executed for giving money to some northern rebels. The abbot, Hugh Cook Faringdon, was beatified in 1895. So Reading has its own king and its own saint - cool! Personally, I suspect Henry I's silver coffin was melted down and his bones thrown in the river. Reading is also the place where Britain's earliest written song comes from - Sumer Is Icumen In. We even had a holy relic, St James' hand, but that's now in a museum in Marlow (boo).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by prendrelemick

GG: In those days France was one of a collection of states - France, Normandy, Navarre, Maine-Anjou and more. Rouen was the capital of Normandy and the seat of the Norman Kings of England. So it's fitting that bits of them were sent there to be buried.

The word Norman is just a corruption of Norseman or Northman and Normandy was a Viking kingdom just like the North of England was. William the conqueror had as good a claim to the English throne as One-in-the-eye Harold as he was related to our Danish Kings.


Sancho: That is genius.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kev67

I read that Henry VIII had the last abbot of Reading hung, drawn and quartered for high treason - nice! I wondered whether that had anything to do with the body of King Henry I and his silver coffin having gone missing. However, Wikipedia says the abbot was executed for giving money to some northern rebels. The abbot, Hugh Cook Faringdon, was beatified in 1895. So Reading has its own king and its own saint - cool! Personally, I suspect Henry I's silver coffin was melted down and his bones thrown in the river. Reading is also the place where Britain's earliest written song comes from - Sumer Is Icumen In. We even had a holy relic, St James' hand, but that's now in a museum in Marlow (boo).

---

Thanks.
I'm now recalling the French Connection due mostly in part to a copy of 1966 National Geographic magazine I held on to after clearing out the family home after the parents passing.

A few shots from the magazine you Ricardians might appreciate:

(click on the thumbnails for larger image)

http://i963.photobucket.com/albums/a...ps0e953aba.jpg


The end of Harold (Mick's "poke in the eye")
If you look closely you can just make out the shaft in Harold's hand as he attempts to pull it out of his eye...

http://i963.photobucket.com/albums/a...ps243017d1.jpg

Halley's comet passed in 1066 and was recorded on the tapestry
You can see it along the top border...

http://i963.photobucket.com/albums/a...pse24ad6ef.jpg

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kev67

I read that Henry VIII had the last abbot of Reading hung, drawn and quartered for high treason - nice! I wondered whether that had anything to do with the body of King Henry I and his silver coffin having gone missing. However, Wikipedia says the abbot was executed for giving money to some northern rebels. The abbot, Hugh Cook Faringdon, was beatified in 1895. So Reading has its own king and its own saint - cool! Personally, I suspect Henry I's silver coffin was melted down and his bones thrown in the river. Reading is also the place where Britain's earliest written song comes from - Sumer Is Icumen In. We even had a holy relic, St James' hand, but that's now in a museum in Marlow (boo).

---

That would be part of the "Harrowing of the North" that Henry VIII instigated as punishment for being rebellious. We've long memories round these parts.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gilliatt Gurgle

Thanks.
I'm now recalling the French Connection due mostly in part to a copy of 1966 National Geographic magazine I held on to after clearing out the family home after the parents passing.

A few shots from the magazine you Ricardians might appreciate:

(click on the thumbnails for larger image)

http://i963.photobucket.com/albums/a...ps0e953aba.jpg


The end of Harold (Mick's "poke in the eye")
If you look closely you can just make out the shaft in Harold's hand as he attempts to pull it out of his eye...

http://i963.photobucket.com/albums/a...ps243017d1.jpg

Halley's comet passed in 1066 and was recorded on the tapestry
You can see it along the top border...

http://i963.photobucket.com/albums/a...pse24ad6ef.jpg

---

Ahh the Bayeux tapestry. An early example of a graphic novel. Some ladies in a Scottish Isle sewing circle have just completed a copy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by prendrelemick

That would be part of the "Harrowing of the North" that Henry VIII instigated as punishment for being rebellious. We've long memories round these parts.



Ahh the Bayeux tapestry. An early example of a graphic novel. Some ladies in a Scottish Isle sewing circle have just completed a copy.

---

There is also a copy in Reading Museum. Reading has a tenuous link with Battle, the town near Hastings where the Battle of Hastings was fought. Some Victorian ladies decided it would be a good idea to make a copy of the Bayeux Tapestry. It's fairly faithful to the original, but where the original clearly showed stallions, the copy shows geldings.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kev67

...a copy of the Bayeux Tapestry. It's fairly faithful to the original, but where the original clearly showed stallions, the copy shows geldings.

---

That is interesting, I'll see if I can find the Reading copy on the interwebs.

Their rendering of the horses may stem from the recent dietary supplements you're experiencing over there.
Prendrelemick, are you sure "Jasmine" wasn't a gelding?

Victorian Ladies didn't do horse's knackers. They ignored their existance for fear of becoming "fallen women."

You know this theory of being only six removes from anyone you care to mention? I've just realised I'm only a few removes from William the Conqueror, thank to Kev's post: the connection between Reading and Battle is that Battle Abbey (founded by William after the Battle of Hastings) owned land in Reading. It was where the old Battle Hospital was built - now a Tesco Superstore. My first flat was built on land that had belonged to Battle Hospital; therefore it was built on land that had been gifted to Battle Abbey by William himself; therefore I should have been paying my groundrent to the Duchy of Normandy.... Just a thought....

I think the Scottish ladies have 'completed' the Bayeux Tapestry, in that they have added a post-battle scene or two.

little known - or maybe not - there were 5 contenders for the throne when Edward the confessor died in 1066.

The problem was the last 3 kings had died without issue, so direct heirs were scarce.

Eadgar the Atheling, who was probably the rightful king but a bit young. Harold Godwinson, Harold Hardrada of Norway, Sweyn of denmark, and William.

William was the last man standing so he got the prize.