I live in Texas. Our governor has some thoughts on how to make schools safer:
http://www.wfaa.com/news/politics/Pe...183885461.html
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I live in Texas. Our governor has some thoughts on how to make schools safer:
http://www.wfaa.com/news/politics/Pe...183885461.html
A USA gunshop owner interviewed on BBC said yesterday was his busiest day ever. Americans really believe in the gun, it functions as a talisman, giving off a mystic aura of protection. This confidence isn't bourne out statistically (sorry, more Michael Moore stats). Gun carryers are 4 times more likely to be shot .
Meanwhile the NRA and other lobbists are switching from "Now is not the time to debate gun laws" to diverting attention on to Mental Health, and the Whitehouse are becomeing more vague in their statements. Expect video games to be blamed soon!
Talking of Videos, Utube has one of the last three Presidents saying the same thing as Obama after assorted massacres of innocents - "change must happen". It didn't.
Ye gods. Teachers carrying guns at all times? On what level is this not cretinous?Quote:
Originally Posted by qimissung
Volya, your comment on guns having a 'use for good' aside (I'm struggling to understand how something which is designed purely to kill has a use for good?), it's a nice idea but I think you may have an overly optimistic view of how much you can really know about someone and why they do things and our ability to implement preventative measures. In amongst all the millions of people in the US, how are you possibly supposed to know the mind of every person who may or may not be disaffected who may or may not have mental illness (which is poorly understood in itself) who may or may not simply lose control? Look at the case of Anders Brevik - he has explained exactly why he did what he did but does it really make any sense to you? In Brevik's case the attack was pre-planned, but in the case of these mass massacres it's impossible to know whether the perpetrator has acted on plan or impulse. In fact unless they have left an explanatory note (which there may be in this case, but the authorities seem to be awfully quiet on that point) it's impossible to know anything about it at all. Even when you do know why someone has acted in the way they have, it doesn't mean that their action was justifiable or preventable. Guns enable people to react on an angry impulse in a fatally destructive manner and people can behave strangely (or out of character) when placed in situations of extreme stress. Take this example of a recent shooting in Alabama where a man shot 3 people (and was then, himself, killed) because he was angry about the care his wife was receiving at the hospital. Take the gun out of the equation and what might have happened? He may well have been angry. Perhaps he'd have thrown a chair or punched someone. Perhaps he'd still be alive, receiving care and support and his wife would be getting the treatment he felt she needed? In any event, there would be one more person still alive. Report here: http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/n...tter-care-wifeQuote:
Originally Posted by Volya
Of course you need a two fold approach. You cannot ignore the mentality that leads to these events but the challenge of understanding it, pre-empting it and preventing it is far more insurmountable than simply removing the kind of weapons which enable people, at a distance, to obliterate the lives of so many people so easily in one fell hit. It's easy to throw out the tired old cliche 'guns don't kill, people do' but the fact is that armed with only a biro and a Swiss Army knife I'm not likely to be able to murder 27 people and terrorise hundreds of others. Take the guns away, and the instances of mass shootings will reduce. You don't even need to remove all weapons, I don't think anyone is suggesting that. But in all honesty, who actually needs an assault rifle in day to day life? And it is just as 'true' to say that 'guns don't kill people, people with guns do', and more honest, I think.
I find it very hard to reconcile myself to the idea that the right to possess an automatic weapon is of more value, is more important, than those 27 lives, and all the other lives which have been (and will continue to be) sacrificed at the alter of the gun.
This article from Charlie Brooker pretty much sums up how I feel about this whole dreadful state of events: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...harlie-brooker
Quote:
Twenty children shot at close range with an assault rifle. You could argue that the choice of weapon is irrelevant; that a truly unhinged individual would still find the means to kill. Maybe that's true; I don't know. All I know is that 20 children were shot at close range with an assault rifle, and that only a lunatic nation wouldn't try everything it could think of to make that less likely to happen again.
America, don't be helpless. Look at the faces. Feel how much it hurts. Try to stop it happening again.
Obama's own words:
"Are we really prepared to say that we're powerless in the face of such carnage, that the politics are too hard? Are we prepared to say that such violence visited on our children year after year is somehow the price of our freedom? No single law, no set of laws, can eliminate evil from the world or prevent every senseless act of violence in our society. But that can't be an excuse for inaction."
And that is why I like Obama.Quote:
Originally Posted by Delta40
I so hope he can stand by this sentiment.
Guns will decrease in popularity in the US when:
Tea goes down in poularity in UK, Football in Brazil, and la bella figura in Italy. The pilgrims jumped off the boat with guns it's part of the fabric of the culture- maybe not so much with this demographic(Onlit) - but believe we are not in the Main. From accross the other pond it looks crazy.
Do we have any regular onlitters born Texans on here? Or Louisiana born and raised? Mississippi ? I only point those three out as I lived down there and pretty familiar with the entrenched gun culture that is ever present there. Would be interested in their perspective.
Qimi said she was from Texas earlier on, and she clearly has pretty strong views on this subject - I only know one Texan in the real world, and she is most definitely of the 'God, guns, and babies' variety.
As I believe I pointed out earlier, these massacres do not make up the majority of crime in the world. What they are is shocking and makes the head-lines, but mass shootings like these really should not be the main issue when deciding on gun law, or any law for that matter. What is more important, saving twenty lives in one event, or saving hundreds over time.
And if we are trying to use these events as the reason for change in law, surely we must look at the Bath School massacre, the deadliest school massacre in the US. The killer did not use guns, he used bombs. Bombs are very easy to make at home (all it takes is a google search to find out how), do you suggest we ban the sale of all products that can be used to make them?
Well, at least there is no 'right to bear bombs'!- but knowing some states.....Quote:
Originally Posted by Volya
I loved what TheFifthElement had to say about this.
A personal note about Texas: It stinks. It's a cattle factory place. I have never seen anything like it anywhere else. Cows jammed in with other cows spanning for miles in either direction off the interstate. Cow cities. It's like Texans want to advertise it. More cows than people, by a lot. There is no grass. No green. Packed on yellow musty dusty mud (I didn't know mud could be wet and dusty at the same time until Texas) in metal cubes in obscene heat, the cows scream and bash into each other. There are stacks of dead and dying cows all over the place. The stench is heavy. My nose's scent adaptation skills were no match for it. This isn't about the cows, although I did pity their terrible existences. Texas is a wasteland. It's HUGE, so one could argue that there are nice areas, but there are enormous stretches of nothing.
A person wouldn't want to drive through it at its widest point. I drove through as little of it as I could, but I couldn't avoid it entirely when I drove from Florida to California. I was stuck in it for a full day. It's the kind of place that makes movies about dirty, hillbilly serial killers seem very believable. I believe a person should not get lost in the Texas wastes. After so much nothing, horizon following horizon of identical yellow dirt slopes or flat land, there are towns peppered in. I had heard a lot about Amarillo. I assumed it was a substantial town of bustling activity to have gained the amount of note that it had. Instead, it seemed to be one mini mall running horizontal to the one main road I saw. If it had more than two roads, they were miles and miles from the town's(?) center. There were a few women dressed ridiculously, entering a Walmart. Women like Loka mentioned. God, guns, babies. Their hair was large and full of hairspray. They had spray tans and matching outfits and smug looks on their faces. I couldn't imagine what they did there, in that barren nothing of a place. It doesn't surprise me that a lot of Texas women become obsessed with the sport of catching a man.
My aunt and cousins lived there for most of their lives. They saw George W. Bush as some kind of deity. In the more densely populated areas, my cousins complained of severe gang activity in the schools, nothing to do, widespread poverty and squalor. A day of fun included drinking, mudding(?), and I don't know...mate seeking? Evolution may have come to a near stop in Texas. Austin and Huston are somewhat impressive insofar as they draw a lot of big business. There's a lot of crime, but they'll say please and thank you and they drive oh, so politely in traffic, and they are bat**** insane.
I have known some great people from Texas. A lot of smart people. The point I'm trying to make is that Texas should not be used as an example or a standard for anything outside of Texas. Texas is not indicative of life in greater America. They'll arm their teachers. They want to secede. They want to do away with critical thought. Whatever they're doing, it hasn't been working. Certainly, no one should adopt their suggestions for gun control. I feel bad for trashing it this way, but it's a marvel. Its charm is false. Stinky, puke inducing Texas.
Let me introduce you to the entire population of the United Kingdom. Giving any twat from the public a weapon that can kill a man in a split second is absolutely terrifying. I have the right not to live in an area where my neighbour can kill me if they've had a bad day.Quote:
Originally Posted by OrphanPip
Nineteen children killed is nineteen children too many. But for pro-gun people (most Americans) nineteen isn't a big enough number for them to give a damn. France, Britain, Germany, etc. manage to hold their government to account without using guns. Funny that. Tell me what is so special about America that the public needs to own guns.
Yes, I live in Texas,but I'm from Oklahoma, although the point is moot concerning how people feel about gun control in either place. And if we're talking about feelings, you've also got Arkansas, and the whole west, Colorado, Wyoming, etc., where people also feel passionately about their guns. If you came here, it's entirely possible that you would like these people.As TonyWalt pointed out it is part of our national character, woven into it from the beginning.
Part of the problem is that they will not consider any compromise. We run into the same problem where women's rights are being eroded by passionate people on the right. I have lived in this part of the country all of my life. I never see guns nor have I ever seen anyone carrying them, nor have I ever been in a situation where a gun was needed. I have seen their negative impact in a secondary way. I work in a school, and while no one has ever brought one there, guns have impacted the lives of my students outside of school. A former student of mine was shot and killed last spring; another student was shot, but survived-this about five years ago; and one student lost a brother and three friends when a gang member leapt on top of the convertible they were in and shot them through the sun roof. None survived. Another man in Dallas, apparently he was on drugs, tried to break into a neighbor's house. The neighbor tried to shoot to scare him, but killed him. I'm sure there are many more stories, but those are the ones I know.
And there are other issues at stake here. Most of these school shootings are committed by young men, often with mental illnesses. I feel this is an area we neglect in the United States which has ramifications above and beyond this incident. We are not a terribly inclusive society. If you are different we are very glad to exclude you. One girl was quoted as saying that Adam Lanza didn't connect with the kids in her school. She didn't say that they tried to include him anyway. I think he was terribly, vastly lonely; the same seems to be true for the Aurora shooter. I do have sympathy for what brought these men to their breaking point. I would really like to see my country begin to address these issues,too.
And please don't forget, that there are already many laws in place concerning guns. And that someone who has a murderous impulse is not going to feel constrained by those laws.
Varenne and Babyguile, I understand you have strong opinions on this subject, but please remember to phrase these in a way that is not full of name calling or disrespect. Americans-and Texans-may be deeply misguided-but they are not evil.
Agreed. Most people in the UK would not see it as a right to own guns. Following the Dunblane massacre, legislation was passed that essentially made the ownership of handguns illegal - a move that had a great deal of popular support at the time and since. Nor has there been any serious attempt since to decriminalise them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Babyguile
If anyone, particularly in America, has never heard of the Dunblane massacre, and its following reforms, then I urge you to at least have a look at the wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunblane_school_massacre - if nothing else, it shows that these terrible events can bring about change.
What about the Dallas Cowboy football cheerleaders?- SEE! - there's culture there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Varenne Rodin
(Austin has pockets of culture too - i've seen some good rock bands there)
Yes, hot pockets of culture. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by tonywalt
I thought this was a thoughtful piece that explores the isolation of Nancy Lanza and her son.
http://www.salon.com/2012/12/18/imagining_nancy_lanza/
It's all true, but Americans are not British. Dunblane tightened up something that was relatively tight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lokasenna
This is my weapon.
This is my gun.
This is for fighting.
This is for fun.
We need more gun control and more fun.
Gearge Bush proposed that having insurance for terrorism would end with it. It was one of the things that made sense.
Insurance for guns will probably do the same thing.
Not to have can be made profitable. And the profits will encourage better behavior and control. It was always that way.
My favourite Public Service Commerical was the one of a person lighting up a joint then a voiceover "You are helping terrorism". It's fairly incredible what a large segment of the population can be sold.Quote:
Originally Posted by cafolini
It seems that the most these teachers, even if armed, could have done was become a target for the killer giving their students a chance to escape and for others out of range to act. That is what I imagine they did.
We need to remove weapons that allow someone to rapidly target a group of children. This would give their caretakers a better chance to defend them.
You've just destroyed your own argument.Quote:
Originally Posted by tonywalt
Or they could've fired at the killer, thus delaying him and possibly scaring him off, if not outright killing him?Quote:
Originally Posted by YesNo
I tried to say that Austin and Huston were the bright spots. The intent of my post was not to insult. Texans have some weird stuff to deal with; harsh environment, limited activities, poor educational system, old fashioned ways. Texas the PLACE is disgusting to me. This is not a remark about the people who have to live there, aside from saying that their views on gun control and women don't fully jive with the views of literate America. I don't want to be seen by the outside world the way people see Texans.
There is talk of implementing the armed teacher idea here in California, after Texas decided that was their solution. We can't take things happening in Texas and apply them to places outside of Texas. I don't want the state I live in to be influenced by that state, except maybe as an example of what not to do.
Thanks for clarifying, Varenne. I think the idea of arming teachers is just an idea-at the moment anyway. :D
I get that I'm not living in a nation as deeply entrenched in gun culture. When Port Arthur happened, we were aghast but there was still some dissent and they rallied the support of the NRA to go to loggerheads with our government. Fortunately, the outright ban on semi-automatic weapons went through. Since last Friday, state Premiers have come under tremendous pressure here if they are even seen to be supporting gun groups cut through the redtape of gun ownership and the sort of weaponry allowed. Australia has reacted in great sympathy to this tragedy and revisited its own horror. It would be political suicide for any politician right now to help out these groups. I guess that is the difference between the nations but it is also a reminder to remain ever vigil about our government and the favours they are trying to curry without thinking about the consequences.
This is from The Guardian newspaper in the UK and if the 88% of the gun owning population decide not to give up their weapons, the US Government is going to have a hard time forcing them to. That's a lot of firepower there.
The key facts are:
• The US has the highest gun ownership rate in the world - an average of 88 per 100 people. That puts it first in the world for gun ownership - and even the number two country, Yemen, has significantly fewer - 54.8 per 100 people
• But the US does not have the worst firearm murder rate - that prize belongs to Honduras, El Salvador and Jamaica. In fact, the US is number 28, with a rate of 2.97 per 100,000 people
• Puerto Rico tops the world's table for firearms murders as a percentage of all homicides - 94.8%. It's followed by Sierra Leone in Africa and Saint Kitts and Nevis in the Caribbean
Destroyed with irony, which is very rare in Texas.Quote:
Originally Posted by Emil Miller
Juarez had 5K murders in one year. I don't see how PR is worse than Juarez. Where did you get that info from, Emil?
I suppose the mere fact that arming teachers is Texas's first publically available idea speaks volumes. And believe me, THAT is exactly how they think in the main.Quote:
Originally Posted by qimissung
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...loped-country/
That's excluding Mexico.
They would not have known he was a killer until he fired first. The teachers would be the first targets whether they carried guns or not. Then the rapid shooting of the children could commence. It is the rapid targeting that should justify banning these types of weapons.Quote:
Originally Posted by Volya
We will see what happens in Texas whether arming teachers reduces the number of deaths or increases it through accidental killings. However, I don't think Texas should be singled out. Texans are no worse than anyone else here.
There is also no point in scaring off someone who is intent on committing suicide.
Exactly.Quote:
Originally Posted by YesNo
Quote:
Originally Posted by LaMaga
Well, it's from the Guardian, a left-wing British newspaper.
Today they printed a substantial article and interviewed a US gun dealer called Mr. Durkheimer; this is part of the article:
But Durkheimer, who counts elephant hunting in Africa among his pastimes, has not seen anything like the past weekend.
"There are two kinds of Americans. People who want to take care of themselves and those who want to be taken care of. The ones who want to take care of themselves are the ones who come into my shop," he said.
The buyers regard the Newtown killings as a tragedy, but view any connection to their right to own weapons as a political ploy aimed at depriving them of their guns.
"It's terrible what happened. It's just plain evil," said Richard Merritt on the steps of the gun shop after browsing assault rifles with a thought to buying himself one for Christmas to supplement the handguns and hunting rifle he owns.
"But there's people trying to use that to say I'm responsible because I own a gun. Where's the connection? The only people making one are doing it for political ends because there's not one of these massacres would ever have been stopped by a law that takes my gun away. But now they're talking about doing that again, I think this may be the time to buy."
You can see that there's likely to be tough times ahead for those who try to disarm the American public.
We could arm our children.
Our guns are for keeping the Queen of England out of our face. You blokes might have broke free centuries ago if you'd had them. I bet the Irish were happy they kept theirs when the English came a knockin'.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lokasenna
And if we are trying to use these events as the reason for change in law, surely we must look at the Bath School massacre, the deadliest school massacre in the US. The killer did not use guns, he used bombs. Bombs are very easy to make at home (all it takes is a google search to find out how), do you suggest we ban the sale of all products that can be used to make them?
What is sad is just how predictable all the arguments against any form of gun control are... as if the individuals lack any ability to think for themselves, but only repeat the NRA handbook: "Guns don't kill people..." "More people are killed by cars..." Yes, a bomb was used in the deadliest school massacre in the US. How many total deaths from bombs in US schools have their been vs total deaths from guns? How many kids have been killed each year from guns? I personally know of 4 of my own former students killed by guns. And once again... the products used in the creation of a bomb... and the automobile... do they perhaps have a practical purpose beyond killing? How about guns?
Lol. 88 per 100 people? It's heartening to know that you're still afraid - very afraidQuote:
Originally Posted by mortalterror
It seems that the most these teachers, even if armed, could have done was become a target for the killer...
Or they could've fired at the killer, thus delaying him and possibly scaring him off, if not outright killing him?
Oh please. I remember Charlton Heston speaking on behalf of the NRA immediately after the Columbine killings suggesting that teachers should carry handguns. I cannot even begin to fathom the number of deaths that would result from such. In any given year in any American urban school district students have succeeded in stealing the teacher's cell-phones, i-pods, i-pads, laptops, watches, keys, and any number of other expensive toys from under the teacher's noses. Can you even begin to imagine the number of guns that would end up stolen... in student hands?
It's heartening to know that you're still afraid
And that's the problem. Calming the fear of those paranoid individuals by allowing them to purchase automatic weapons more easily than they can get a license to drive is more important than the thousands of lives of innocent men, women... and children lost every year.
Or found by a snoopy or curious kid when the teacher walks out for "just a second" and forgets to lock her desk. When I was working at a local social service agency, a little kid once got hold of her social worker's mace and started cheerfully spraying it around. Luckily, nobody was hurt.Quote:
Originally Posted by stlukesguild