It is not true that those schools fail the good students.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neely
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It is not true that those schools fail the good students.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neely
Really? I bow to your extensive knowledge and forget what I see happening every single day.Quote:
Originally Posted by cafolini
cafolini- It is not true that those schools fail the good students.
Neely- Really? I bow to your extensive knowledge and forget what I see happening every single day.
This article seems quite apropos:
http://thecollegevoice.org/2011/11/0...-biggest-flaw/
:cornut:
For every article you find that says that, you find another one that says exactly the opposite, but it's logical that people pay far more attention to bad predictions than good ones. I do not see it your way. As a matter of fact, I see this generation as the brightest ever by far. And that idea that America is doomed is pure propaganda machine. We'll have to wait and see who's correct. But how long do we have to wait? What you are saying has now been heard for over 20 years. Well, we'll see. I give you 20 more.Quote:
Originally Posted by stlukesguild
And please don't make yawn by telling me that I think I'm an expert at everything simply because your expert's interpretation does not coincide with mine.
Have the predictions already come to pass? Why is it that so many interesting threads have to be closed because of lack of civility? Is brightness even the important thing for making a civilization function?Quote:
Originally Posted by cafolini
You could be right. Not necessarily. Could it be civil stomping?Quote:
Originally Posted by Vonny
If you watch the movie An Unfinished Life with Robert Redford you'll see an example of a grandfather effectively disciplining his granddaughter without the stomping. I think what he taught the little girl was more important maybe than reading or writing.Quote:
Originally Posted by cafolini
Thank you for acknowledging that I could be right.
This sub-forum has a history of participants in denial of empirical evidence but if you don't accept what I have posted in this regard, what about Neely's and St Lukesguild or even your own:Quote:
Originally Posted by Seasider
"I went back into Supply Teaching for 18 months after 20 years in Higher Ed and I could not believe how hard and stressful it was when compared with my earlier experiences.
What struck me was the fact that the class did not like having to get used to someone else just for a couple of days, and demonstrated this by hostility and often rudeness."
What do you think had happened during those twenty years? Why should pupils be allowed to be hostile and rude to any teacher? When they are in school they should be controlled by whatever means necessary; making excuses for bad behaviour merely encourages it and adds to the problem.
Some teachers might find it useful to build up a relationship with their pupils but it should be one of respect and where it is lacking they should be disciplined by the teacher is in charge.
I know that it isn't like that now, but it should be if we are going to escape the blackboard jungle that is the fate of many comprehensive schools. The alternative is for liberals to carry on in pursuit of their wishful thinking with its correlated self-deception and stay where we are now.
Can someone please define liberal education policies versus conservative education policies with concrete examples, particularly a handful of them?
Thank you for asking that question, Drkshadow.
I personally don't think that,in America at least, that the educational system is a product of either the conservatives or the liberals. At the moment, if anything,it is laboring under the "No Child Left Behind" policies instituted by the Bush administration. According to the New York Times :
"The current No Child Left Behind law requires that test scores increase in every school every year, to meet the requirement that 100 percent of students reach proficiency by 2014. According to a new research report, 31,737 of the 98,916 schools missed the law’s testing goals in 2009, vastly more than any level of government can help to improve."
It's a law that was passed with the backing of both parties, but it doesn't seem like it's working, either. Probably because it is quite punitive.
Anyway, the full article is below, as is an article from Wikipedia explaining the law for those folks from other countries who may not know much about it.
School reform is a hot topic here in the states. I'm not sure that I think that schools in general are in such bad shape. Schools in urban areas, though, are not doing well. The problems are myriad. They do require a lot of support that they simply do not get, and then when they don't perform well they are punished; not necessarily a recipe for success, n'est pas?
http://topics.nytimes.com/top/refere...act/index.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Child_Left_Behind_Act
When you guys talk about discipline, you mean the authoritative style, not the authoritarian style, right?
Can someone please define liberal education policies versus conservative education policies with concrete examples, particularly a handful of them?
OK... some Liberal/Progressive policies would include pressuring teachers not to mark student's papers with red ink as it might damage their precious egos. Emphasizing the achievements of minorities at the expense of learning about the major historical/cultural figures necessary for a child to succeed in today's society (And no, this is not an anti-multiculturalism diatribe. I am fully for exploring the achievements of all cultures, races, genders... but we shouldn't be spending more time [in the US] studying about Martin Luther King, and Rosa Parks than Abraham Lincoln and Thomas Jefferson.) Elimination of phonic for whole language immersion. Eliminating ability tracking. Attempting to enforce an illusion of egalitarianism by taking inclusion to the extreme. Social promotion championed again as a means of avoiding damage to the student's fragile ego. Refusal to enforce expectation for student behavior or hold students accountable.
On the Conservative side we have the push for the inclusion of prayer and religion in the classroom. We have the attempt to eliminate ESL is the belief that all children should learn English of go home. We have the push to eliminate nearly all reference to the achievements of cultures beyond European/Americans. We have the push to eliminate thinking that challenges conservative ideas regarding sex, birth control, evolution, history, etc... We have the push to enforce positive views of Capitalism, American military intervention, etc... as opposed to encouraging students to explore all sides of a given debate and come to their own conclusion.
That’s a fair summing up of both sides of the political extreme (substitute British equivalents and it approaches the same thing). I do wonder though, if by liberalism here we could also take it to mean the general movement towards liberal social attitudes regardless of which party is actually in power. I’m talking about the general cultural underpinning of liberal ideas resulting in such things as the focus on rights over responsibility, the suing culture and the politically correct mind-set. Regardless of which party is actually in power it seems as though this mentality has permeated its way into society at large and therefore of course the schools and other education establishments.Quote:
Originally Posted by stlukesguild
Each political party might try to steer its own way towards its own ideology, but the reality is that it’s a slow moving process with only minor alterations in policy from one side to the next with each successive change in government. For example you might hear Conservative rhetoric of “rote learning of the Kings and Queens” or “more power for teachers to discipline misbehaving students”, but the reality is only minor slow changes to policy (which will be changed back again next government) if that, if it’s not just empty rhetoric to win votes.
Personally, as I’ve said, easily the most obvious sore thumb of a problem in schools is poor behaviour. There are other problems, as I have commented upon, but this is right at the top of the list. Again, I’m talking about the schools that Frank talks about, the sort of school that I work in and similar schools around it, not those high middle/top of the state school league tables which are excelling all the time. I suspect that there are many reasons for poor behaviour, but certainly the cultural liberalist attitudes, if you can call it that, are evident.
For example, last week one lad ran out of class and down the corridor. I called out to him and he ignored me. He continued to run down the corridor eventually stopping at the door to another class and began to shout at someone inside, a friend I expect. I walked over to him and tried to get him to come away from the door and back where he is supposed to be as he was disrupting the class. He ignored me. I told him repeatedly to come away from the door, getting progressively louder and he continued to completely ignore me. It an attempt to get his attention, and an error on my part, nudged his bag with my finger and thumb. He immediately turned around and said “Oi, that’s assault. Do that again and I’ll sue you”. He then turned his back on me and continued to shout into the door. He eventually came away in his own time, but refused to come back to class and instead ran off in the opposite direction for an early dinner. I didn’t bother to report the incident because it is so minor that I wouldn’t have any backing to keep him inside for 5 minutes or similar punishment (not lines because that is now illegal as it is deemed to be against human rights - seriously). I only mention it to highlight his first reaction upon my nudging his bag which was one of his rights and the ingrained suing mind-set at the complete disregard to his own responsibilities in following simple instructions from a member of staff.
In the same week, a particular student (who has been on his “last chance” in the school for the last two years) had completely disrupted a lesson for the last 30 minutes by calling out and shouting at the teacher in such a rude and aggressive manner he was to be ejected from class. He refused to go. The general policy when this happens to send for on-call and hope they can move the student on and into another class (so that they can disrupt that one as well usually). This can take 10-15 minutes though as there is only one person on on-call and they are busy! So in an attempt not to have to waste another 10 minutes of everybody else’s time (especially the good kids who want to learn, the ones really being failed by the system as I said before) I mistakenly picked up his pen (probably borrowed from us) and his book and tried to move him. He shouted at me “Oi you, get your dirty hands of my property or I’ll sue you and this fu*king school”. I didn’t return his book but tried again to move him out, mildly remonstrating about his use of language. Fortunately, on-call was surprisingly quick and arrived after about 5 minutes and he eventually agreed to leave with him. If he hadn’t we would have had to move the entire class out and found a different room because that is the policy. Of course, most of the lesson was now ruined anyway, as usually happens because there are 5 or 6 of students of that nature in that class, but the point is he immediately leaped to the idea of suing, his rights, totally oblivious to anything he should be doing.
Replies like these are very common from students. It is an almost instantaneous reply from a lot of them and evident of the liberalist cultural attitudes found in schools and in society generally.
I must disagree with you one one count. I find it somewhat frustrating to hear all older men and women, in the world on the internet, looking at my generation and saying we are doomed and stuff in a similar vein.Quote:
Originally Posted by stlukesguild
I am sorry but I am extremley proud of my generation. And really my generation is still young. Sure we are not going off to war like our grandparents or are not reinventing an new prosperous system like our parents, but I am proud of us.
I talk to my people, and I see a passionate dessire for life, I see people who I am proud of.
How on earth could I not love my generation when a few guys a 4ish years older than me produce this song and my generation responds to it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNy8llTLvuA&ob=av2n
It's a disgrace. I have a lot of trouble being around most people of my generation, and the younger ones are even more difficult.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neely
Well, that's precisely what The Cave lyrics are saying. Good points. This generation is the sharpest in summary. Of course, the freedom necessary for progress causes petty issues greatly exaggerated by mongers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexander III
Of course we must not fall into the mistake of judging an entire generation with the same green pen (the older or the younger generation!) and recognise that the generation Vs generation debate is a recurring theme as old as time. The 60s generation had their own obvious song too:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=594WLzzb3JI
Rather, my thoughts are drawn from my own experiences about teaching after years in education and with listening and learning from a variety of people within all walks of life. I can understand that this is not good enough for some people though, and that vacant notions of “freedoms” or other buzz words are much more definitive.
Why?Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexander III
Although I can understand that everybody believes their generation is the brightest, the sharpest, in one word the best, it’s worrying to see such a lack of critical thinking towards today’s world. There are those who are capable of critical thinking, who developed a historical sense, and who know that our time is far from being the best; and there are people who never imagined that today’s world is a world where they are alienated by different powers, where their life has lost meaning, where they are less and less human. There are those who despise today’s world, and there are the fools who enjoy their time. I’m not old, I’m thirty, but already when I was in high school, I could see that most of the teenagers were dumb, ugly, boring, and that very few were worthy of friendship. As a teacher, I could see that the young people were dumber than ever, imprisoned in values they think liberating. I don’t lose hope in the youth, though: they are our only chance.
Ha! Ridiculous. If you were to put into practice what you are saying in the classroom, you could never be a teacher, which I suspect you are not.Quote:
Originally Posted by B. Laumness
Now, tell me, how could you have so much hope for the dumb, ugly, boring, unworthy of friendship. You seem bitterer than raw cocoa and arsenic.
I was a teacher during five years. I changed job, luckily.
When teenagers say they are brighter than preceding generations, the only sensible thing to do is to smile indulgently and continue doing the cryptic crossword puzzle that you know they could never finish. As for critical thinking, there is in fact a superfluity of it in the form form of educational theories that are often simply hot air that have nothing to do with the real requirements of teaching: which is why the book under discussion makes a refreshing change by telling it as it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by B. Laumness
I would disagree that all teenagers are dumb, ugly and boring; after all, there are some very pretty girls out there, but the boys are, for the most part, beyond redemption. The values that they think liberating are those of the 'stupid' elder generation who are making a nice living by selling the younger generation all kinds of rubbish and telling them that it's different from what the older generation likes. There's nothing new in this of course, it's been going on since the 1950s, but it's amusing how they can be tricked into buying things that they 'must have' before the next 'must have' item rolls off the production line.
Of course, there are still intelligent and pretty young people. Fortunately. (I wrote "most of the teenagers": "most of" means "la plupart", does it?)
I agree, Emil, the problem is not new, even though its consequences are more visible today.
Sorry, I misread your post. Yes, "most of" does mean "la plupart".Quote:
Originally Posted by B. Laumness
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emil Miller
:lol: This is very funny. I don't know why other people get all :mad: I'm not a teen, but I'm one of the ones who can't do the crossword puzzle, and I don't have Emil's sharp wit, either. So what? It doesn't make me less of a person, but if I was voting in his country, I'd ask his advice and appreciate that he has some to give me.
The only advice I would give in such an instance would be to read my novel Pro Bono Publico, even though both of the parties that shared power during the period concerned are given very short shrift. That which is the rule today was caused by the misrule of yesterday.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vonny
I'll do that Emil, and then I'll review it on your book review thread. :) I've been looking forward to reading it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Emil Miller
Of course we must not fall into the mistake of judging an entire generation with the same green pen (the older or the younger generation!) and recognise that the generation Vs generation debate is a recurring theme as old as time. The 60s generation had their own obvious song too:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=594WLzzb3JI
Of course the Who were quite a bit before "my generation"... and it might also be noted that they also "grew up" to a certain extent:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHhrZgojY1Q
While we're on this theme, I would think a better song for Alex might have been:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxYGOSSj9A0:cornut:
Rather, my thoughts are drawn from my own experiences about teaching after years in education and with listening and learning from a variety of people within all walks of life. I can understand that this is not good enough for some people though, and that vacant notions of “freedoms” or other buzz words are much more definitive.
Agreed.
I can understand that everybody believes their generation is the brightest, the sharpest, in one word the best...
Of course. Such an egocentric view is a common developmental stage of most adolescents... one that most begin to outgrow as they further develop their critical thinking abilities.
The values that they think liberating are those of the 'stupid' elder generation who are making a nice living by selling the younger generation all kinds of rubbish and telling them that it's different from what the older generation likes. There's nothing new in this of course, it's been going on since the 1950s, but it's amusing how they can be tricked into buying things that they 'must have' before the next 'must have' item rolls off the production line.
I largely agree... but I would suggest that the general stupidity or gullibility of each subsequent generation goes back well before to 1950s. Indeed, I would surprised if you could prove that any generation was more or less "exceptional" (for better or worse) than the previous.
Well, you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone more spoiled than my mother.Quote:
Originally Posted by stlukesguild
However, it would certainly be interesting to see this generation go through WWII, with the rationing, and so forth. What if people today had to work in fields picking cotton? That would be something to see!
How many of today's feminists would be strong enough for the pioneer life? Could they walk from the East Coast to the West Coast, 20 miles per day, while pregnant, and pray that they camp by a source of water in case the baby comes along that night, then bury another child with cholera along the trail and get up and take off again the next day? What about the "individualists" today whose principles it would violate if they ate a bite of meat? How would they have fared as pioneers? (And I'm saying this as one who couldn't have survived - I know.)
The values that they think liberating are those of the 'stupid' elder generation who are making a nice living by selling the younger generation all kinds of rubbish and telling them that it's different from what the older generation likes. There's nothing new in this of course, it's been going on since the 1950s, but it's amusing how they can be tricked into buying things that they 'must have' before the next 'must have' item rolls off the production line.
This kind of "stupidity" is called Capitalism. The endless need to buy and go on buying... stimulated by manufactured obsolescence, changes in fashion or styles, poor quality materials etc.
I once saw a film called The Man in the White Suit where a material that never wore out was invented but then was forcibly removed from the market because it threatened the livelihoods of everyone involved in the textile industry.
Yes, the so-called generation gap goes back much further, but I chose the 1950s as a notable point in the exploitation of youthful ignorance because that was the decade of the most profitable creation in the ad man's box 'The Teenager': prior to which, disposable income, such as it was, rested in the hands of the older generation. With the advent of the 50s this situation took a sudden change on account of the post-war boom in the USA which also impacted on other countries, and so the media-fostered teenager, a word whose etymology predates the 1950s but was not in common use, was heavily promoted and has been constantly encouraged and used by the business community ever since.Quote:
Originally Posted by stlukesguild
In the last decade or so it is children who have been increasingly targeted. Their skilled use of pester power and their advert- encouraged familiarity with expensive brands deliver their parents up to the altar of consumerism.
Yes indeed, don't get me started on advertising!Quote:
Originally Posted by Seasider
That would be nice and it would be another review to add to Neely's, but I don't know if you would enjoy a novel which is primarily historical in content and, although the themes have a general application, is set within the context of English life since WW11. However, the story does move between various countries because of the UK's international status and it also attempts to throw some light on the arcane legal system in England.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vonny
You might care to check it out on Amazon if you haven't done so already.
Well clearly the solution is just to stop reproducing, I'm doing my part.
Quote:
Originally Posted by B. Laumness
I do not think my generation is the best, for that (amongst the west) I reserve that honor to those born in the 1780'-90's.
But I am proud of my generation. You saw everyone as dumb,ugly and boring? have you considered that the problem might stem from you? I strugle agianst bouts where everyone is boring and dumb and ugly, but I make sure not to get lost in my ego and I try hard to look on it without my dam self ruining everything, and I assure you I am proud of my generation.
Look to be honest at the age of 19, I have been to more countries that 95% of peopel will ever vistit in their lifetime. And I dont know, but I see something which makes me proud, especialy in my generation. It is always a strugle against the ego which seeks to drown you and the world with you, but if you stay afloat there is somethign to see. And , there are studpid people, and dumb and ignorant and selfceneterd, but by dam, they have all cried at one point in their lives, they have all felt as I ahve felt at somepoitn in mylife, more so my generation, and beacuse of that, I could never condem any.
Look, we are all part of society because it has benefits which we enjoy, and we must tolerate it's lack of benifts. Advertising comes with consumer goods. If you dont like advertising, stop buying things. Ofcourse you can't do that, so instead of complainign about the drawback of advertising remember how hard your life would be if you couldnt buy things anymore. Instead of getting choleric at each advertisment, be gratefulle everytime you buy something, that is is there for you to buy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neely
But if you really can't tolerate advertising, stop buying things.
Children are targeted, as witness the rows of sweets lined up at supermarket checkouts, but then so are teenage girls who are tempted by the 'celebrity' magazines also stacked at the checkouts. They do, however, provide a break from the boredom of waiting while one reads that: 'Justin Dumps Charline', 'My Drug Hell by Melinda' and 'I'm 25% Gay says Brad' etc etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seasider
Still, never mind, they'll grow out of it.
I'm proud not only of my generation but of the subsequent generations of almost the entire 20th century because they managed to explore, discover and divulge more science and more useful technology than in all of history put together. And it has nothing to do with lack of critical thinking. On the contrary. There has been more critical thinking in the second half of the 20th century up to today than in all of history put together. There have been much better writers, more variety, more brain use and expansion, more evolution than in all of history put together. Let those who can see appreciate it. The rest will be recycled whether they like it or not. The stagnant mongers of the end of the world, the apocalyptic, etc., etc. and etc., no longer stand a chance to spoil what we have going on.Quote:
Originally Posted by B. Laumness
Why do we need advertising in order to buy something? Your argument makes no sense. I want a beer I'll go into a pub. I need a present I’ll go online. I don’t need a fat man constantly screaming in my face in order to try to sell me car insurance at every turn. If I want insurance I’ll get it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexander III
This is without even getting in the morality of advertising which is abhorrent at best.
I agree with you in pride for my generation, but not with the rest to be honest.Quote:
Originally Posted by cafolini
I do not give a fig for "critical thinking" and discovering "technology and science better than the rest" - I mean sure those are great things but progress does not make me proud. I feel pride not in the progress but in people who can live and feel like all other men before them, in those who do not think of the future, or the present; those for whom eternity is their playing feild. If that makes sense.