Why do many women find 'the male body' ugly?

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Originally Posted by Emil Miller

Sorry about that Neely, but my original picture of topless young ladies was too much for the moderators. So I have decided to play it safe instead and show an alternative version of a real female cyclist.

http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/4418/baselineo.jpg

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Damn I missed out on that one, but I like this one anyway - nice hat!

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Originally Posted by Emil Miller

I'm beginning to warm to the Original Post's premise, especially in the light of something like this.


http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/424...bicycles21.jpg

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From the female perspective, I will comment that my girl friend is more attractive than this, especially her eyes. She doesn't have the "come-hither" look, but she doesn't need it to out-distance this one, even without a bike.

This girl doesn't look very clean to me. I can be paranoid at times, but she looks as if she could even have a disease.

As I think about it further, she also looks cheap.

She looks like a million others too - very generic.

You speak of "cheap" and "dirty" as if these were negatives.

"Cheap" and "dirty" can be quite attractive at times.

:smilewinkgrin::smash:

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Originally Posted by stlukesguild

You speak of "cheap" and "dirty" as if these were negatives.

"Cheap" and "dirty" can be quite attractive at times.

:smilewinkgrin::smash:

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oh my god. I have had some shocks in my life....

The mods may remove these posts, but I really wish they wouldn't because it would deny my experience, and as a person with a form of mental illness I don't need my experience denied. And I would really like to understand, why would you say this to me? Aren't you a school teacher?

I was saying that that was my perspective of that picture. To me it is cheap, dirty, diseased and generic - and not attractive.

Emil calls himself "Retired Degenerate" and Neely says, "What would Woody do?" At least they don't pretend to be something they're not. But you call yourself St Luke. Emil and Neely haven't said anything awful like this directly to me.

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Originally Posted by stlukesguild

Vonny... be aware that art is an illusion... and writing... even if it only be on an internet forum... is a form of art. It is dangerous to assume that the fluidity... the mastery of language... the ease and the apparent "naturalism" paint a true portrait of the individual behind the words. Certainly, many of us here are quite likely far less witty and skillful with the spoken word than with the written word. The written word affords one the time to think and make choices. There is the old cliche that one should write as one speaks (or thinks), but do we really want writing laden with "ummms" and "hmmms" and "uhhhhs"? One of the values of literature is that it teaches the individual the power of words... the manner in which words can influence our thinking... or even manipulate us.

I remember immediately being struck by the power of words to manipulate while reading Shakespeare's Julius Caesar. Caesar has been murdered and Brutus comes before the massed crowds to argue his case:

Romans, countrymen, and lovers! hear me for my
cause, and be silent, that you may hear: believe me
for mine honour, and have respect to mine honour, that
you may believe: censure me in your wisdom, and
awake your senses, that you may the better judge.
If there be any in this assembly, any dear friend of
Caesar's, to him I say, that Brutus' love to Caesar
was no less than his. If then that friend demand
why Brutus rose against Caesar, this is my answer:
--Not that I loved Caesar less, but that I loved
Rome more. Had you rather Caesar were living and
die all slaves, than that Caesar were dead, to live
all free men? As Caesar loved me, I weep for him;
as he was fortunate, I rejoice at it; as he was
valiant, I honour him: but, as he was ambitious, I
slew him. There is tears for his love; joy for his
fortune; honour for his valour; and death for his
ambition. Who is here so base that would be a
bondman? If any, speak; for him have I offended.
Who is here so rude that would not be a Roman? If
any, speak; for him have I offended. Who is here so
vile that will not love his country? If any, speak;
for him have I offended. I pause for a reply.

There is an awkwardness to his introduction... and to his use of repetition:

hear me for my
cause, and be silent, that you may hear:

believe me
for mine honour, and have respect to mine honour, that
you may believe:

The words don't flow fluidly... but they do draw attention to what comes across as Brutus pleading that you hear and believe that he is honorable...

And then Mark Antony steps before the crowd... and such a speech:

Friends, Romans, countrymen, lend me your ears;
I come to bury Caesar, not to praise him.
The evil that men do lives after them;
The good is oft interred with their bones;
So let it be with Caesar. The noble Brutus
Hath told you Caesar was ambitious:
If it were so, it was a grievous fault,
And grievously hath Caesar answer'd it.
Here, under leave of Brutus and the rest--
For Brutus is an honourable man;
So are they all, all honourable men--
Come I to speak in Caesar's funeral.
He was my friend, faithful and just to me:
But Brutus says he was ambitious;
And Brutus is an honourable man.
He hath brought many captives home to Rome
Whose ransoms did the general coffers fill:
Did this in Caesar seem ambitious?
When that the poor have cried, Caesar hath wept:
Ambition should be made of sterner stuff:
Yet Brutus says he was ambitious;
And Brutus is an honourable man.
You all did see that on the Lupercal
I thrice presented him a kingly crown,
Which he did thrice refuse: was this ambition?
Yet Brutus says he was ambitious;
And, sure, he is an honourable man.
I speak not to disprove what Brutus spoke,
But here I am to speak what I do know.
You all did love him once, not without cause:
What cause withholds you then, to mourn for him?
O judgment! thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason. Bear with me;
My heart is in the coffin there with Caesar,
And I must pause till it come back to me.

How much more poetic that invitation to listen: "Friends, Romans, Countrymen; Lend me your ears..."

And then notice how Shakespeare allows Antony to completely undermine Brutus' pleas that the citizens recognize that he was only acting honorably:

"But Brutus is an honorable man"...

repeated again and again... in a clearly sarcastic tone.

The point? I am merely suggesting that it is always dangerous to confuse the artist with the art... even if the art... in this case... is but a bit of verbal repartee... dialog... or discussion on a literature site. I don't say this to scare you away. I doubt there are any stalkers at Lit Net... and the occasional "trolls" seem few and far between. Like you, I do recognize there are any number of posters who who are quite intelligent and talented with the written word. Some are seemingly fluid and natural. But remember Alexander Pope's lines from his An Essay on Criticism:

True Ease in Writing comes from Art, not Chance,
As those move easiest who have learn'd to dance.

Fluidity with words and language comes from a degree of experience and effort. I, myself, am first and foremost a visual artist... a painter. Whatever ability I have as a painter was developed primarily as the result of painting. Those who have a skill with the written word have quite likely developed this through the repeated process of reading and writing.

Much as I like British literature and the English sense of humor, I don't think you can wholly attribute whatever mastery with words that you sense here to something British. A good many of the best writers here are not British, but American, Canadian, Australian... or even of a culture where English was not their first language.

Anyway... a belated welcome to LitNet.

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Do you know how much crap this reader had to shift through to find this? Pretty sure there was a half naked, obese man riding a small bicycle in there somewhere.

Could read art theory/philosophy all day. Anything to avoid actually making something.





J

EDIT: Seriously, you could barely see the bicycle. C'mon.

The woman on the bike is astonishingly beautiful, her state of undress and her pose is an invitation to look and admire. she puts me in mind of a radio programme I heard a while ago.

it was a discussion on pornography. There were a couple of feminists, a model, and a Bishop. (sounds like a set up line for a joke). It all got very heated, the model insisted she was using her body to exploit men, the feminists kept insisting that pornography was rape, and on and on. Then the Bishop said something I've remembered ever since. He said " To the average male, the naked female body is the most breathtakingly beautiful work of art he has ever seen ."

That I think is the difference that this thread is concerned with, I don't think women have the same kick-in-the-stomach reaction to the male body.

This sounds to me as an entirely biological subject. The biological role of male hominids seem to really play the idea of seducing in two different levels from one sex to another, men tend to make up for their uglyness by taking the initiative, amassing power and richness -stability, protection-, and doing a sort of intelectual pornography -trying to show off their skills-. Dog societies are a lot like this too, despite the lack of our knowledge about dog esthetics.

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Originally Posted by prendrelemick

That I think is the difference that this thread is concerned with, I don't think women have the same kick-in-the-stomach reaction to the male body.

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Interesting thought. Do you have any theory as to why that is? Something to do with evolution etc?

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Originally Posted by SleepyWitch

Interesting thought. Do you have any theory as to why that is? Something to do with evolution etc?

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I would have thought that it would have something to do with the reproductive capacities of men and women. Women have to be much more selective because they can only produce one child per year, whereas men obviously have an unlimited capacity, virtually.

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Originally Posted by Neely

I would have thought that it would have something to do with the reproductive capacities of men and women. Women have to be much more selective because they can only produce one child per year, whereas men obviously have an unlimited capacity, virtually.

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Do you really thing women are really more selective in such system? I would say their adaptation to be prettier would lean towards they wanting to be selected.

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Originally Posted by Arrowni

Do you really thing women are really more selective in such system? I would say their adaptation to be prettier would lean towards they wanting to be selected.

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Well yes, biologically speaking, women are of course still in competition and want to attract the very best prospect but it is that - one individual, because of their limitations in reproduction. Men on the other hand do not have such limitations.

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Originally Posted by SleepyWitch

Interesting thought. Do you have any theory as to why that is? Something to do with evolution etc?

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Originally Posted by Neely

I would have thought that it would have something to do with the reproductive capacities of men and women. Women have to be much more selective because they can only produce one child per year, whereas men obviously have an unlimited capacity, virtually.

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Originally Posted by Arrowni

Do you really thing women are really more selective in such system? I would say their adaptation to be prettier would lean towards they wanting to be selected.

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I think evolution is important, and Neely could be right. The male urge to spread his seed far and wide may mean an emotional attachment to a particular person is less important and even a hinderence.

Arrowni: In evolutionary terms i think women want to attract the best male they can, and keep him providing for her while the babies are growing up.

Back to the girl on the bike, I find it difficult to separate the esthetic from the sexual. Is this a male thing?

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Originally Posted by prendrelemick

Back to the girl on the bike, I find it difficult to separate the esthetic from the sexual. Is this a male thing?

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Well all things are relative.

http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/5...bbwsingles.jpg

Yes it is, there will be men (and women) who see these larger ladies and think phwwooar !
They probly also think the girl on the bike is a little too skinny...
Everyone is different in what they like to look at and what turns them on.

I think the points being made about evolution and mating may be the key though, it would be important for the male to be instantly attracted to a mate (ie on sight)so he could maximize his seed spreading , where as it would be important for a female to take a bit more time to choose her mate (ie observe if he would be a good provider first) - we females may even be programmed not to find men instantly visually attractive.

But that is not the same as saying we find your bodies ugly.

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Originally Posted by Bluehound

- we females may even be programmed not to find men instantly visually attractive.

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This would explain why gorgeous females are often seen in the company of less than, what would normally be considered, attractive males.

http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/5...irl415x275.jpg

Hehe yes, although I still think its a bit wierd.

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Originally Posted by Bluehound

Hehe yes, although I still think its a bit wierd.

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It gets even weirder, but I think the Louis Vuitton bag might have something to do with it.

http://img839.imageshack.us/img839/1...del500x678.jpg

oh my god. I have had some shocks in my life....

No shock intended.

The mods may remove these posts, but I really wish they wouldn't because it would deny my experience, and as a person with a form of mental illness I don't need my experience denied. And I would really like to understand, why would you say this to me? Aren't you a school teacher?

Seriously, you are putting too much thought into an off-the-cuff comment simply challenging your posted notion of what appears to be "cheap" and "dirty". Yes, I am a teacher... but I'm on summer break right now so it's no holds barred.:eek2::lol::goof: Seriously, I don't see that being a teacher makes one any more or less of a sexual... or ethical being... at least not outside of the expected professional behavior. Even so... you should remember I'm also an artist... and you know those artists.:smilewinkgrin:

I was saying that that was my perspective of that picture. To me it is cheap, dirty, diseased and generic - and not attractive.

And that's well and fine. Seriously, she's not my ideal. But I would also suggest that even those whose ideal partner might be someone highly intelligent, sophisticated, tasteful, elegant, well-mannered and profoundly spiritual may still find cheap, dirty, and lustful to have it attractions.

Emil calls himself "Retired Degenerate" and Neely says, "What would Woody do?" At least they don't pretend to be something they're not. But you call yourself St Luke.

My moniker is not intended as any suggestion of saintliness or purity. St. Luke was considered the patron saint of painters as the result of an apocryphal tale in which he painted a portrait of the Virgin and Child. The subject was quite popular among medieval and Renaissance artists:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3647/...e9562c0e_b.jpg

As a result of this connection with St. Luke, the painter's guilds... which essentially acted as unions for the painters, often became known as the Guild of Saint Luke or Saint Luke's Guild.

Emil and Neely haven't said anything awful like this directly to me.

Again... you are taking what is written here far too seriously... and too personal. My comment was intended to be off-the-cuff, and while it built upon your comments, it was really just thrown out for everyone or anyone to respond to... or ignore.

To the average male, the naked female body is the most breathtakingly beautiful work of art he has ever seen.

Why do you think that the nude is one of the largest subjects in the entire history of art?

This thread is making me sick. I have to wonder why it's always the woman's fault. The women I know are sweet, kind, hardworking, generous people who don't really deserve the bull**** being piled on in this thread. I mean really why wouldn't we want to cozy up to these guys:


http://www.bellyfatanswers.com/images/beerbelly.jpg

http://media.lunch.com/d/d7/476439.jpg

http://www.mpcpoker.com/wp-content/u...-guy-poker.jpg

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Originally Posted by prendrelemick

That I think is the difference that this thread is concerned with, I don't think women have the same kick-in-the-stomach reaction to the male body.

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Originally Posted by SleepyWitch

Interesting thought. Do you have any theory as to why that is? Something to do with evolution etc?

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Maybe it's just hormones. Are people more likely to have a kick-in-the-gut reaction to another person depending on um, their hormone levels?

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Originally Posted by papayahed

I mean really why wouldn't we want to cozy up to these guys:


http://www.bellyfatanswers.com/images/beerbelly.jpg

http://media.lunch.com/d/d7/476439.jpg

http://www.mpcpoker.com/wp-content/u...-guy-poker.jpg

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I think you might have been looking in the wrong places.

http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/8127/unledymc.png

What a strange question. If a woman wants to hug her boyfriend that she does it.

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Originally Posted by Emil Miller

This would explain why gorgeous females are often seen in the company of less than, what would normally be considered, attractive males.

http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/5...irl415x275.jpg

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Some things in life are just wrong and that's one of them. I mean Lembit's wrong full-stop but I am refering to the gorgeous girl and rich fool scenario - jealous? Well yes damn it.

Some things in life are just wrong and that's one of them. I mean Lembit's wrong full-stop but I am refering to the gorgeous girl and rich fool scenario - jealous? Well yes damn it.

And I'll bet any number of American politicians envy him... or rather Europe's lack of Puritanism when it comes to anything sexual.

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Originally Posted by Neely

Some things in life are just wrong and that's one of them. I mean Lembit's wrong full-stop but I am refering to the gorgeous girl and rich fool scenario - jealous? Well yes damn it.

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Sorry about this Neely but that is only one of many glamorous females Lembit has been romantically involved with. Here he is with one of his former girlfriends, a member of the Cheeky Girls duo.

http://img831.imageshack.us/img831/1...50213d7970.jpg

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Originally Posted by stlukesguild

[COLOR="DarkRed"]And I'll bet any number of American politicians envy him... or rather Europe's lack of Puritanism when it comes to anything sexual.

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President Clinton seemed to do OK with his dalliance in the oval office.
As for the English, the sexual licence that reigns in the UK is due to a kind of reverse psychology. As I have written in my first novel Pro Bono Publico: The sexual repression inherited from Puritan and Victorian forebears gives rise to an exaggerated prurience among the English....

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Originally Posted by stlukesguild

Some things in life are just wrong and that's one of them. I mean Lembit's wrong full-stop but I am refering to the gorgeous girl and rich fool scenario - jealous? Well yes damn it.

And I'll bet any number of American politicians envy him... or rather Europe's lack of Puritanism when it comes to anything sexual.

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Oh, there's a bit of Puritanism going on with the American politicians then? The UK is quite uptight at times though (of course we are speaking generally...) but I think elsewhere in Europe there is greater scope for sexual liberalism for sure.

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Originally Posted by Bluehound

I think the points being made about evolution and mating may be the key though, it would be important for the male to be instantly attracted to a mate (ie on sight)so he could maximize his seed spreading , where as it would be important for a female to take a bit more time to choose her mate (ie observe if he would be a good provider first) - we females may even be programmed not to find men instantly visually attractive.

But that is not the same as saying we find your bodies ugly.

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Good point. I dunno. I just suspect that women are not as obsessed as men when it comes to sex and are therefore just not that fussed. Again another generalisation, but I guess you can relate it back to reproduction again in the same way.

Boy, doesn't biology take all the fun and mysticism out of it all?

Edit: oh boy, just seen above, anyone fancy a punch up?

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Originally Posted by Neely

Edit: oh boy, just seen above, anyone fancy a punch up?

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I admit that it's annoying, but try to contain the violence even though this next photo might be seen as provocative.


http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/6...mos468x667.jpg

Ahem, Lembit isn't the only one with two nice ladies...

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i4...iceevening.jpg

Joking aside, the girl on the left is a good friend; the one on the right is more of an aquaintance - I wouldn't try anything on with either of them, I'd get my head kicked in.

To return to the topic of the male body, I was having an interesting conversation the other day. Now, I'm of the opinion (and always have been) that I am not particularly physically attractive - tall, pale and gangly, with glasses and wild, mousey hair. And yet the other day I was with a group of friends, and the conversation turned to physical appearance and the desirability thereof - and, in response to a comment of mine along the above lines, one of my friends (who is gay and not single) commented that he'd always found me rather handsome. This was, to say the least, rather shocking to me - it was in no sense a proposition or anything, simply a statement of fact on his part. Then the other night at a formal dinner, I overheard a middle-age lady quietly comment on me to her male partner, saying "what a handsome young man." Again, this rather floored me - it is not a manner in which I think of myself, and I'm still minded to think them wrong.

Now, I freely accept that a middle-age woman and a young gay man might view the male body in a different way, but nonetheless this double-whammy has rather knocked the stuffing out of me. So the question I want to ask is this: is it really an issue of women not liking the male body, or men merely thinking that they don't? Is it more of a confidence issue than anything else?

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Originally Posted by Lokasenna

Ahem, Lembit isn't the only one with two nice ladies...

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i4...iceevening.jpg

Joking aside, the girl on the left is a good friend; the one on the right is more of an aquaintance - I wouldn't try anything on with either of them, I'd get my head kicked in.

To return to the topic of the male body, I was having an interesting conversation the other day. Now, I'm of the opinion (and always have been) that I am not particularly physically attractive - tall, pale and gangly, with glasses and wild, mousey hair. And yet the other day I was with a group of friends, and the conversation turned to physical appearance and the desirability thereof - and, in response to a comment of mine along the above lines, one of my friends (who is gay and not single) commented that he'd always found me rather handsome. This was, to say the least, rather shocking to me - it was in no sense a proposition or anything, simply a statement of fact on his part. Then the other night at a formal dinner, I overheard a middle-age lady quietly comment on me to her male partner, saying "what a handsome young man." Again, this rather floored me - it is not a manner in which I think of myself, and I'm still minded to think them wrong.

Now, I freely accept that a middle-age woman and a young gay man might view the male body in a different way, but nonetheless this double-whammy has rather knocked the stuffing out of me. So the question I want to ask is this: is it really an issue of women not liking the male body, or men merely thinking that they don't? Is it more of a confidence issue than anything else?

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Yes Lokasenna, it's a confidence issue!! Your perception can be a bit distorted, the same as mine :lol:

This is one thing I'm sure of, though.

Loka, I don't believe a word of that - they're just two of your many foxy chicks I bet. Medieval poetry gets them everytime!

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Originally Posted by Neely

Loka, I don't believe a word of that - they're just two of your many foxy chicks I bet. Medieval poetry gets them everytime!

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:lol: You've definitely got a point about the medieval poetry!

It makes me laugh that Lokasenna has this problem! It's the most ludicrous thing.

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Originally Posted by Vonny

:lol: You've definitely got a point about the medieval poetry!

It makes me laugh that Lokasenna has this problem! It's the most ludicrous thing.

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Absolutely. The chicks love the Beowulf talk (they also quite like the Wilde stuff as well, ha, ha, ha - [evil laugh]).

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So the question I want to ask is this: is it really an issue of women not liking the male body, or men merely thinking that they don't? Is it more of a confidence issue than anything else?

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Well the original point came from a woman so I don't know. I suspect it is like my biology points previously.

Really, I think women are just after the money myself. I don't trust them. Look at Lembit. Good personality?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNRrRFe11eg

:p

Emil/Brian- President Clinton seemed to do OK with his dalliance in the oval office.

I don't know. He almost got impeached by the Neo-Con Republicans who were looking for anything to hang him by.

As for the English, the sexual licence that reigns in the UK is due to a kind of reverse psychology. As I have written in my first novel Pro Bono Publico: The sexual repression inherited from Puritan and Victorian forebears gives rise to an exaggerated prurience among the English....

Our population includes the heirs of a good many Puritanical sects that were kicked out of Europe... and with good reason. While we have produced endless Hollywood sex symbols, Rock'n'Roll, Rap, mottos such as "Sex Sells" and the California/Californication Porno industry, we also still have more than our fare share of puritanical religious sects and politicians who believe that they have the right to dictate what others do in their bedroom (or elsewhere for that matter:smilewinkgrin:). As a result, we may have become the first neurotic... if not schizophrenic superpower. My Jewish friend blames it all on Freud and the plethora of Jewish therapists in the US. Just look at Tony Soprano.:smash:

Loka, I don't believe a word of that - they're just two of your many foxy chicks I bet. Medieval poetry gets them everytime!

Absolutely. The chicks love the Beowulf talk (they also quite like the Wilde stuff as well, ha, ha, ha - [evil laugh]).

I actually remember thinking that the girls would be impressed with me lugging about my hefty edition of Dante's Comedia.:shocked::D:rofl::lol:

Seriously, I actually met Mrs. StLuke to be while she was browsing a copy of The Comedia in a bookstore. It's a long and complex story and I don't know if the whole thing is symbolic... and of what?:crazy:

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Originally Posted by stlukesguild;1045275 Seriously, I actually met Mrs. StLuke to be while she was browsing a copy of [I

The Comedia[/I] in a bookstore. It's a long and complex story and I don't know if the whole thing is symbolic... and of what?:crazy:

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Long ago, when I was taking a course in German at a language school, among the others in the group was a very attractive girl who immediately caught my attention. She was very friendly and it might have led to a romantic conclusion, but one day she turned up with a copy of Finnegan's Wake and after that you couldn't see my heels for the dust.

Long ago, when I was taking a course in German at a language school, among the others in the group was a very attractive girl who immediately caught my attention. She was very friendly and it might have led to a romantic conclusion, but one day she turned up with a copy of Finnegan's Wake and after that you couldn't see my heels for the dust.

I must say, the possibility of a romantic entanglement might have been just enough to convince me to give Finnegan's Wake another go.:brow:

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Originally Posted by stlukesguild

And that's well and fine. Seriously, she's not my ideal. But I would also suggest that even those whose ideal partner might be someone highly intelligent, sophisticated, tasteful, elegant, well-mannered and profoundly spiritual may still find cheap, dirty, and lustful to have it attractions.

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Damn right. Life offers the straight male no prospect more gratifying than finding himself in a hotel room after midnight with a chilled bottle of vodka, a mellow reefer and an intelligent, well-read, articulate, cheap, dirty slut.

And, incidentally, I am not using any of those words in a perjorative sense, as I hope the context makes clear.

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Originally Posted by stlukesguild

I must say, the possibility of a romantic entanglement might have been just enough to convince me to give Finnegan's Wake another go.:brow:

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When she first appeared she had a copy of Le journal des Goncourt and that was part of the attraction, but Finnegan's Wake was a complete turn off. As for reading it twice, I would turn down a romantic entanglement with the young Brigitte Bardot rather than submit myself to the unreadable masterpiece.

Stluke,

I suddenly get it that this is your sense of humor. I didn't understand that. My world is different from yours and so I completely didn't get it! I thought you were just being insulting.

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Seriously, I actually met Mrs. StLuke to be while she was browsing a copy of The Comedia in a bookstore. It's a long and complex story and I don't know if the whole thing is symbolic... and of what?

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Long ago, when I was taking a course in German at a language school, among the others in the group was a very attractive girl who immediately caught my attention. She was very friendly and it might have led to a romantic conclusion, but one day she turned up with a copy of Finnegan's Wake and after that you couldn't see my heels for the dust.

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I must say these are great stories. The meeting over Dante and the running away from Finnegan's Wake, great stuff! I wonder if other people have had similar encounters?