Is Our Culture Ready for the Trashcan?

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Originally Posted by OrphanPip

I don't see how pop music is a sign of Western cultural decline. Have you heard Korean, Chinese or Japanese pop music? I think we're winning.

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:s,ilielol5:

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Originally Posted by Neely

Anyway, whether this is a cultural or a social decline, it seems to me that there is a general lack of respect in society today and that is my argument, certainly in the UK, which is fast becoming one of the worst countries in Europe.

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How do you rate them on the goodness and badness scale?

How do they compare against life say, 400 years ago, under the fuedal system. Was virtual slavery an advantage in cultural excellence.

I think you're getting closer to Aunty S's problem though, which is actually: "Cultures Change".

SLG has been berating the point, but I'd like to add that cultures do change, and the evidence for that is pretty obvious. Change does not equate to improvement or regression, it just means change.

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Originally Posted by Paulclem

After all, we - the older generations - are in fact the cause of what happens. The culture, the youngsters, are not some aliens seperate from us, but are linked to us and how we brought/ are bringing up our kids. The challenge is to do it better.

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Amen.

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Originally Posted by Jozanny

This debate has seemingly devolved into your social pathology is better than mine, and it is not really an indicator of cultural apex, cultural golden age, or cultural decline.

Look, I complain on my blog about social pathology all the time. The attendants who have victimized me have kept my post traumatic stress symptoms alive and well, and turned my biases into a nearly entrenched certainty of experience, so my heart bleeds, truly, for instructors on the front line-- but luke and Neely and Brian and Fifth and me can sit down over coffee and revel in Wilde's attributes, yes?

Isn't that a retention, even a strength, of Western cultural resilience? I don't like muddy waters when it seems no one has a decent definition of what they mean.

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Got to agree with this; it's unfortunate that threads which address this and similar subjects, always break down in this way. I don't think Aunt Shecky's original post re Western cultural extinction has been adhered to and is rapidly devolving into nit picking.

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Originally Posted by mortalterror

As for the Araxes, it is, according to some accounts, larger, according to others smaller than the Ister (Danube). It has islands in it, many of which are said to be equal in size to Lesbos. The men who inhabit them feed during the summer on roots of all kinds, which they dig out of the ground, while they store up the fruits, which they gather from the trees at the fitting season, to serve them as food in the winter-time. Besides the trees whose fruit they gather for this purpose, they have also a tree which bears the strangest produce. When they are met together in companies they throw some of it upon the fire round which they are sitting, and presently, by the mere smell of the fumes which it gives out in burning, they grow drunk, as the Greeks do with wine. More of the fruit is then thrown on the fire, and, their drunkenness increasing, they often jump up and begin to dance and sing. Such is the account which I have heard of this people. -Herodotus Histories

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But those people are not aristocratic, neither schoolboys. They didn't live in England, so they do not account for Western Civilization. Plus, statistic is bad, unless they are used as something vague, numberless.

After a time travel, I finally found a society without social revolt. There was no decline, saddly no improvement either. They are called dinossaurs and they have two suns. One that moves straight to the earth, according to Mr.Flintstone. By the way, I am nitpicking because the irony of irony cann't be well understood unless a prostitute (this recent invention of human society) threw the naked truth on me.

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Originally Posted by Emil Miller

Got to agree with this; it's unfortunate that threads which address this and similar subjects, always break down in this way. I don't think Aunt Shecky's original post re Western cultural extinction has been adhered to and is rapidly devolving into nit picking.

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Rest assured that it doesn't break down until it reaches the point of Godwin's Law. (Although the earlier references to Goering come close!)

Back to the point of whether we've only recently begun to slip down the proverbial slippery slope or if it goes back 40 years or more, here's some more "anecdotal evidence"(a contradiction in "terms.")

Back when Dwight MacDonald was writing his seminal essay, there was no Internet, no cable. The predominant mass medium was broadcast television. We were the famous "last family in the neighborhood" to get a TV, and I think I was about 8 years old when we finally had one, which only brought in one VHF channel well, another family member having broken the dial.

But this was the time of "The Golden Age of Television,"which offered important plays on the Philco Playhouse,Kraft Theatre, Playhouse 90, and the like, with the works of Odets, Serling, Chayevsky, etc. Those drama series were somewhat like the equivalent of Masterpiece Theatre on PBS today, or since they were contemporary teleplays, like HBO without the swearin'. Keep in mind though, they were on network tv, which today offers soul-killing "reality" shows, and the dumbest fare you can think of.

But even then, Newton Minnow of the FCC complained about the "vast wasteland," as many viewers watched the "l.o.p."--"least objectionable program." There were just as many lame-o sitcoms in the early 60s as there are now,
but they were tempered with real talents, such as Sid Caesar,Carl Reiner, Dick van Dyke, even Woody Allen and Neil Simon.

These days it's rare for even PBS to broadcast an opera, a ballet, or a concert of classical music. (Their more-and-more frequent "pledge breaks" have been going the "pop" music route. Last week they even had "The Beatles" --in the personae of a "tribute" band!)

But can you imagine one of the 3 American networks actually putting classical music on during prime time. But they did at one time. Now, this is going way, way back, but when I was little I used to watch Leonard Bernstein explain the various instruments of the orchestra and how they related to the symphony that they were about to perform. Even then, when I was so young and uncouth and never introduced to the finer things in life, I thought it was wonderful. This is what the rich kids have," I remember thinking, "this is what they've got in Westchester County and Connecticut." Just last fall when
I learned about Earl Shorris's humanities program, I realized that decades ago I must have had the same feelin as
his students

So --in the very limited domain of the idiot box, yes the culture has definitely deteriorated.

The two most popular free-to-air TV shows in the UK in the last year I paid attention (2009, I think) were Big Brother and the BBC's dramatisation of Bleak House - all ten hours of it. The figures suggest that the audiences overlapped by a high percentage. The Proms at the Albert Hall are screened every year, and get huge ratings.

Ordinary people like loads of stuff. The audience's tastes are less stereotypically predictable than marketing strategists would have us believe.

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Originally Posted by MarkBastable

The two most popular free-to-air TV shows in the UK in the last year I paid attention (2009, I think) were Big Brother and the BBC's dramatisation of Bleak House - all ten hours of it. The figures suggest that the audiences overlapped by a high percentage. The Proms at the Albert Hall are screened every year, and get huge ratings.

Ordinary people like loads of stuff. The audience's tastes are less stereotypically predictable than marketing strategists would have us believe.

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Interesting. Could you provide the overlap figures that suggest a high percentage of Big Brother's audience also watched the ten episodes of Bleak House ? I am also one of those who occasionally watch the Promenade concerts, but I would be interested to see the figures for those particular audiences, throughout the whole of the season and not just the razzmatazz of the last night, compared to those of, say, X Factor or any of the mass audience programmes that habitually occupy television screens today.

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Originally Posted by Emil Miller

Interesting. Could you provide the overlap figures that suggest a high percentage of Big Brother's audience also watched the ten episodes of Bleak House ?

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That'd be statistics. You wouldn't want that, except to dismiss them.

I really hoped that you would say "I will ask my father."

Anyways, could you provice the anedoctal evidence anyways? Give Emil some credit (or rope), plus it is interesting data. (Even if irrelevant, Dickens was accused as one of the motors behind the decline of higher literature, in his books there is not much aristocracy and many boys out of school, so Bleak House is obviously ready for trashcan).

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Originally Posted by MarkBastable

That'd be statistics. You wouldn't want that, except to dismiss them.

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Agreed, but I was more interested in the word 'suggest' than the figures themselves.

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Originally Posted by Emil Miller

Agreed, but I was more interested in the word 'suggest' than the figures themselves.

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I think I can help you there, by presenting it in your own terms.

I looked at the figures at the time, and it's obvious that everyone who watched Big Brother also watched Bleak House. And they all also watched The Teletubbies and Seinfeld. If you are telling me that it's not true or that I have imagined it, then I have to tell you, and anybody else who may be interested, that you are wrong.

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Originally Posted by MarkBastable

I think I can help you there, by presenting it in your own terms.

I looked at the figures at the time, and it's obvious to an idiot that everyone who watched Big Brother also watched Bleak House. And they all also watched The Teletubbies and Seinfeld. If you are telling me that it's not true or that I have imagined it, then I have to tell you, and anybody else who may be interested, that you are wrong.

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In other words you are not prepared to corroborate your statement that: "Ordinary people like loads of stuff. The audience's tastes are less stereotypically predictable than marketing strategists would have us believe. "

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Originally Posted by Emil Miller

In other words you are not prepared to corroborate your statement that: "Ordinary people like loads of stuff. The audience's tastes are less stereotypically predictable than marketing strategists would have us believe. "

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Excuse me - I think I just did.

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Originally Posted by MarkBastable

Excuse me - I think I just did.

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Think again.

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Originally Posted by TheFifthElement

In terms of supposed in school violence - my kids have never seen an actual fight at school, though their Dad at a similar age had been in many (and had become the c*ck of the school - an honour bestowed by means of being the best scrapper of all the lads - remember that anyone?) and I had seen plenty before I reached high school too. If anything I'd say the standards of behaviour have improved,

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I remember the c*ck of our school. I had three fights with him that I didn't want from age 8-ish to 15. I didn't win one, but I was getting closer. The good thing about fighting at school was that you knew - because of the rumpus it caused - that someone would come along and break up the proceedings. The worst words were - "I'll see you at half three" - especially in the morning where the word would go round the classes and a sense of excitement would grow amongst everyone but you - slowly filling with a dread of anticipation. It was a relief to get the whole business over with a few bruises and muddy trousers.

One of the older c*cks was called Sid Okker - a name that would put terror into our young hearts, though I never saw him lift a finger in anger. He did have a face like the back of a bashed up bus.

They used to say that school was the best years of your life, but it wasn't. In the 70s it was full of random violence, bullying that was never addressed, and someone was always out to "get" you - (or was that just me). The potential for a fight was there the whole time at the rough comprehensive I went to. I remember a sixth former being put in hospital by three lads who were 2 years younger than him. After I'd left school, two of my brother's classmates beat a lad I knew to death with a golf club, and another bloke, who used to be at school with us, murdered his girlfriend. He'd been picked on terribly at school, and I couldn't help thinking that it was somehow part of that terrible thing.

The school couldn't and didn't cope with bullying at all. My impression of schools now is that there is a lot more posturing and shouting, but less actual violence. Like you Fifth, I think they try to deal with it now. I didn't hate school, but when I left I realised gradually what a horrible place it was, and how crap some of the teachers were. Some were very good. Lots were mediocre at best.

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Originally Posted by Emil Miller

Think again.

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I've thought again. And, yep, if you are telling me that it's not true or that I have imagined it, then I have to tell you, and anybody else who may be interested, that you are wrong.

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Originally Posted by MarkBastable

I've thought again. And, yep, if you are telling me that it's not true or that I have imagined it, then I have to tell you, and anybody else who may be interested, that you are wrong.

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there's definitely a case for inventing a font exclusively for use on the Net, called Facetious Sans Serif.

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Originally Posted by Emil Miller

there's definitely a case for inventing a font exclusively for use on the Net, called Facetious Sans Serif.

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Cheers of applause from that class of person who enjoys your serious discussions very much but is ill-equipped to participate! :ladysman:

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Originally Posted by Delta40

Originally Posted by Emil Miller
there's definitely a case for inventing a font exclusively for use on the Net, called Facetious Sans Serif.

Cheers of applause from that class of person who enjoys your serious discussions very much but is ill-equipped to participate! :ladysman:

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See, Brian, you do write posts that are appreciated.

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Originally Posted by MarkBastable

See, Brian, you do write posts that are appreciated.

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Yes it's rather unfortunate but I'm sure she meant well.

I don't like muddy waters when it seems no one has a decent definition of what they mean.

I actually quite like Muddy Waters:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjPezeHN9Hc

and John Lee Hooker as well:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X70VM...eature=related

although Brian undoubtedly recognizes the fact that they would garner serious attention... especially by a cultural snob such as myself... is proof positive of the decline of Western Civilization.

Don't worry Brian... I'm currently redeeming myself... listening to some marvelous operatic arias by Johann Christian Bach sung by the amazing Philippe Jaroussky. This brilliant young singer is rapidly becoming a classical super-star... and one more example of the decline of Western culture:goof:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1yUQJj7NbI

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Originally Posted by Emil Miller

Yes it's rather unfortunate but I'm sure she meant well.

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I did! I trust you all know you have an admiring audience...

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Originally Posted by Paulclem

I remember the c*ck of our school. I had three fights with him that I didn't want from age 8-ish to 15. I didn't win one, but I was getting closer. The good thing about fighting at school was that you knew - because of the rumpus it caused - that someone would come along and break up the proceedings. The worst words were - "I'll see you at half three" - especially in the morning where the word would go round the classes and a sense of excitement would grow amongst everyone but you - slowly filling with a dread of anticipation. It was a relief to get the whole business over with a few bruises and muddy trousers.

One of the older c*cks was called Sid Okker - a name that would put terror into our young hearts, though I never saw him lift a finger in anger. He did have a face like the back of a bashed up bus.

They used to say that school was the best years of your life, but it wasn't. In the 70s it was full of random violence, bullying that was never addressed, and someone was always out to "get" you - (or was that just me). The potential for a fight was there the whole time at the rough comprehensive I went to. I remember a sixth former being put in hospital by three lads who were 2 years younger than him. After I'd left school, two of my brother's classmates beat a lad I knew to death with a golf club, and another bloke, who used to be at school with us, murdered his girlfriend. He'd been picked on terribly at school, and I couldn't help thinking that it was somehow part of that terrible thing.

The school couldn't and didn't cope with bullying at all. My impression of schools now is that there is a lot more posturing and shouting, but less actual violence. Like you Fifth, I think they try to deal with it now. I didn't hate school, but when I left I realised gradually what a horrible place it was, and how crap some of the teachers were. Some were very good. Lots were mediocre at best.

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It is a shame, I believe in the comprehensive system, but it can and does go very wrong. Discipline is the root of the problem.


Our comprehensive was fairly strict on the discipline until the old head retired and a "progressive" educator took over - things went down hill rapidly then - although at the time it seemed better to us . They removed the old system and had nothing ready to replace it with. Things became pretty anarchic until another strong man was put in charge - In time for my own kids, thank goodness.

I was (to my suprise) **** of the school for my last year at juniors, and was consequently given a severe beating on entering high school.

There have always been smarties and dummies wherever cultures have existed - in ancient Greece there were Herakles and Jason for the dummies, and Theseus and Perseus for the smarties

There were two classes and two standards of education - the elites needed extra for purposes of governance and marshaling armies, and their 'special' heroes had a form of moral compass the gods seemed to lack

On the debate about Big Brother the mental age had a lot to do with those who watched (check the actual numbers and you'll find that it's still a tiny fraction of the total population - same as Bleak House, you're looking at two extremes)

You could extend that argument to the popularity of The Beatles during their peak - though the world knew who they were they'd sold as many records by the time they broke up that amounts to only one person in a hundred in all Britain having bought one album apiece - and this was before the widespread cassette copying craze (the rest of the money coming from movies, merchandising, and touring)

But everyone was familar with the songs from the cartoon series, endless radio plays, and being taught them in music class

Why am I chattering about The Beatles? Because my Grandmother was convinced that they alone were singlehandedly the end of Western Civilisation

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If anything I'd say the standards of behaviour have improved.

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I guess it comes back to “invalid” anecdotes again. I nearly spilt my sub-standard coffee at such words, but it is all about your experience of the world, if your experience is positive then you are likely to think that way I suppose.

As a front line worker in the thick of education today I can tell you that it is not my opinion. Three/four fights a day, bullying at epidemic proportions, drugging kids to give teachers half a chance to get them to sit in chairs etc, etc, is all a "normal" part of my day. However, I am not basing my arguments solely upon my own observations (as if a person lives in isolation to the world anyway) it is based on having spoken to numerous, numerous people in education who work across the region (also I always speak to supply teachers as I feel sorry for them).

Here, the overwhelming consensus is that things are getting worse. More accurately things are getting worse at schools in the bottom of the socio-economic scale. Schools at the high end are generally excellent, getting better or at least maintaining their superiority (same old, same old) but the behaviour and standards at the average, or bottom end, are getting worse and have been slowly getting worse for a while.

A lot of the problems (if you believe there are problems) can be boiled down to having replaced common sense and discipline, with ever changing buzz strategies, some of which are imposed on schools from above. I’m not going to go into this, but ask anyone in education today and they will tell you the same thing here most likely – (have you checked your 4Rs and focused on your AFs having incorporated your BLPs into your Accelerated Learning Cycle, etc, etc?) However, I also think that what’s happening in the classrooms merely reflects what is happening outside of them – a general erosion of respect, maybe not a massive decline, it is difficult to tell, but a decline nonetheless for sure.

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How do you rate them on the goodness and badness scale?

How do they compare against life say, 400 years ago, under the feudal system. Was virtual slavery an advantage in cultural excellence.

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Ahh, the good old feudal system, a time when torture and slavery was far less sophisticated than it is today and mass media brainwashing had not yet been invented!

I’m speaking of what I see as a general decline in manners, in respect, over the last 40/50 years – or really in my lifetime. There are some great positives today for sure; a greater openness for minorities and certain flexibilities, but as I sit on the bus (observing the “please give up this seat for elderly or disabled people” or the “do not abuse the driver” signs, look out of the window at all the boarded up shops (due to the domination of the supermarkets) attempt to read over the “slap your bit*h up music” which comes from the back of the bus, I think that not all change has been good.

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Originally Posted by MystyrMystyry

But everyone was familar with the songs from the cartoon series, endless radio plays, and being taught them in music class

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...cartoon series?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wUk_b2rHk4

cartoon series

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Originally Posted by Neely

I guess it comes back to “invalid” anecdotes again. I nearly spilt my sub-standard coffee at such words, but it is all about your experience of the world, if your experience is positive then you are likely to think that way I suppose.

As a front line worker in the thick of education today I can tell you that it is not my opinion. Three/four fights a day, bullying at epidemic proportions, drugging kids to give teachers half a chance to get them to sit in chairs etc, etc, is all a "normal" part of my day. However, I am not basing my arguments solely upon my own observations (as if a person lives in isolation to the world anyway) it is based on having spoken to numerous, numerous people in education who work across the region (also I always speak to supply teachers as I feel sorry for them).

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Worse than what exactly? To the time when black people are not allowed to study together in school? Than a time that mroe than half of the kids in western world (hahahaha, I laugh of those claiming the end of western civilization and only talking about England and United States, such hypocrisy) had no access to schools? It was not that long ago. The system of education got worst, but it is an improvement to discuss which system to teach rather how to make kids go to school in masses in first place.

As for changes, the man in your signature could live to his 80 year birthday today. A more inclusive society has advantages and new problems. That is simple.

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Originally Posted by JCamilo

Worse than what exactly? To the time when black people are not allowed to study together in school? Than a time that mroe than half of the kids in western world (hahahaha, I laugh of those claiming the end of western civilization and only talking about England and United States, such hypocrisy) had no access to schools? It was not that long ago. The system of education got worst, but it is an improvement to discuss which system to teach rather how to make kids go to school in masses in first place.

As for changes, the man in your signature could live to his 80 year birthday today. A more inclusive society has advantages and new problems. That is simple.

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Worse than what I said here:

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I’m speaking of what I see as a general decline in manners, in respect, over the last 40/50 years – or really in my lifetime. There are some great positives today for sure; a greater openness for minorities and certain flexibilities, but...

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You'll also notice included in there, my belief in the positive changes and freedoms for minorities today, the type that people like Wilde had to die for in the past - granted, but neither do I walk around thinking that the world is rosy either.

Also, I do not place Yorkshire, UK, at the centre of the universe. Rather, that this is my own immediate experience, limited experience perhaps, but my own experience nevertheless. This is not hypocrisy, this is simply common sense. People have a tendency to see things from their own perspective, in their own society and if I lived in the Congo then my experience would be different, but this does not make me an hypocrite.

I was speaking to a lad who comes from Gambia the other day. He was laughing at why people here criticise the quality of the roads so much here (Sheffield). He says that back in Gambia you need a 4x4 just to get around even on the "best" roads, which are dirt tracks. But things are relative and this is not a valid comparison. If I was to come off of my bike because of the pot holes, am I not to complain? What does the roads back in Gambia mean to me with a bruised head?

In short, I'm primarily talking about the decline of the UK, as this is where I live.

Edit: and if anecdotes are invalid, how do you expect me to talk about Brazil when I've never been there?

It is not even directed to you, but I can talk about england. I did. 40 years ago, the punk movement was persecuted. Police didnt allowed it. Use of drugs was very dangerous, most because of hygiene.

Of course, the question is again, worst than what? Manners? What exactly? Lord Dumpty threated Lord Humpty well? We do not leave the bus seating for ladies? All of this come in consequence of inclusion - Women may have lost some special treatment, but they have others.

And of course, today we are less blind to international consequences. Civilizaition in england and trash can in India. Democracy in America, dictadors in South America. All of this is Western civilization.

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And of course, today we are less blind to international consequences. Civilizaition in england and trash can in India. Democracy in America, dictadors in South America. All of this is Western civilization.

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Well, I couldn't agree any more with that. That is what I meant when I said that we have a more sophisticated system of slavery and torture today than under the feudal system - read back - is this the improvement you speak of by the way?

However, you keep asking more than what and I keep explaining; a fall in common decency and general respect. I am mostly speaking in regards to education. Firsly, because this is what I know, and secondly, because it is so important for the future and it reflects something of society at large. Here, myself and about 95%+ of the people I speak with, see and feel a decline; it is quite apparent.

Again, I cannt even agree: 40 years ago, only 30% brazilians had finished basic school, today 90% are considered alphabetized. This is education improving. In the 40's the questions about literacy is if the kid could read or not, today if they could understand or manipulate the text, which implies the stage of basic literacy is fullfilled. This is improvement. I do think a educational system that is too inclusive (an improvement) also generate a downgrading of certain educational areas (a set-back).

As common decency: combat to racism, care with people with special needs, women rights: they seem to have improved, dont you agree? General respect? Today we are imposed the respect the different sexual opinions, race, believes. 30 years ago? I just point that the inclusion and acceptance of differences generate conflicts. But that it is improvement.

And I do not think society have went down or up, I think it is finding solutions and creating new problems since ever.

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Originally Posted by JCamilo

Again, I cannt even agree: 40 years ago, only 30% brazilians had finished basic school, today 90% are considered alphabetized. This is education improving. In the 40's the questions about literacy is if the kid could read or not, today if they could understand or manipulate the text, which implies the stage of basic literacy is fullfilled. This is improvement. I do think a educational system that is too inclusive (an improvement) also generate a downgrading of certain educational areas (a set-back).

As common decency: combat to racism, care with people with special needs, women rights: they seem to have improved, dont you agree? General respect? Today we are imposed the respect the different sexual opinions, race, believes. 30 years ago? I just point that the inclusion and acceptance of differences generate conflicts. But that it is improvement.

And I do not think society have went down or up, I think it is finding solutions and creating new problems since ever.

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I remember my wife telling me the classifications they had for the various conditions they had in hospitals in the UK in 1979 - Cretin was still used, as was Mongoloid etc etc. I broadly agree with you JC.

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Originally Posted by prendrelemick

It is a shame, I believe in the comprehensive system, but it can and does go very wrong. Discipline is the root of the problem.


Our comprehensive was fairly strict on the discipline until the old head retired and a "progressive" educator took over - things went down hill rapidly then - although at the time it seemed better to us . They removed the old system and had nothing ready to replace it with. Things became pretty anarchic until another strong man was put in charge - In time for my own kids, thank goodness.

I was (to my suprise) **** of the school for my last year at juniors, and was consequently given a severe beating on entering high school.

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I couldn't agree more. Discipline, as I quickly realised, needs to be there before learning can take place.

And c*ck of the school was never a job I would have relished. The c*ck with whom I had dealings also had a hard time in secondary school for a while. It became clear that you needed friends. A severe beating sounds pretty bad. Was it a hospital job?

Hell, a little over 50 years ago in Quebec the children of unwed mothers were forcefully removed by the state and sent to medical institutions because bastards would be mentally ill, this was done in conjunction with the Catholic church that dominated public policy in Quebec at the period.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duplessis_Orphans

I can't imagine anyone getting away with forcefully removing children from unwed mother's today.

Bringing this thread back to its original premise, I have been consulting some back numbers of Le Monde and Le Figaro ( I seldom read English newspapers these days because, in my view, they are not as informative) and in relation to what I have written earlier about the decline of Western culture and its replacement in the East, I have noticed that this is something frequently aired in French newspapers and magazines.
American influence is already on the wain in China as evidenced by this article from Le Monde:

Bye-bye Barbie! In China the culture is turning red.

In Shanghai, the American flagship toy company Mattel consecrated to Barbie has closed its doors but the Chinese equivalent is not yet ready to replace the famous doll.
The article goes on to say that only 25% of television programmes are foreign
and foreign films represent only a third of total projection time.
The search engine Baidu has over 80% of the market and Google has withdrawn from China.

Here is another headline from Le Figaro:

Ostentatious luxury has no place in Peking
Hide this luxury which runs contrary to equality

Peking is attacking the advertising of bling-bling. The authority for Industry and Commerce enjoins advertisers to cease promoting hedonism and the cult of foreign products in the Chinese capital. The words 'luxurious', 'class', 'royal' or 'supreme' are henceforth forbidden to publicists.
The article then states that eminent politicians have denounced conspicuous consumption of luxury products by the economic elite as being detrimental to the harmonious development of a middle class.

Another item from Le Monde has the heading: China's new affirmation of power reflects its nationalism
American diplomats have seen a change in Peking's attitude and a condescension to the world, notably towards Europe.
The recent Wikileaks scandal has revealed the extent to which China's economic power has impacted on its foreign policy in the increasing willingness to stand up to the West in its dealings on the international stage. The attached picture graphically underlines the way things are heading.

http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/8307/scan0006xt.jpg


The article continues with quotations from Wikileaks that confirm this: the most revealing being Hilary Clinton's remark concerning Tibet: "How can the US get tough with it's banker?"


Returning to another facet of the thread that has generated differing viewpoints i.e. anecdotal as opposed to statistical evidence, here is what Claude Gueant the French Interior Minister has to say about the National Front's dramatic gains in last week's cantonal elections: "The French feel that an excess of immigration, an illegal and unrequired immigration troubles them, upsets them. If we persist in denying the reality which is evident to their own eyes, we are paving the way for extremism."

Have you seen this video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QeoKQbT8BKs

It's all about the education. It does make it seem that the efforts on education are currently piecemeal.

Interesting video. Does it also not raise the question why IT is NOT a core subject in schools? There are changes to the core subjects of English, Maths and Science, to these, plus a Humanities and a Language, but again, no IT? Crazy. In fact IT is being devalued. Another top move by the old boys at the top.

I haven't had time to read through all these, but it seems to me that the only evidences to suggest that culture is in some sort of amorphous trashcan are shaky-at-best anecdotes. Someone even went so far as to point to lack of maturity on an MMORPG (massive multiplayer on-line role-playing game, i.e., World of Warcraft) to support this? Two things. First, online games are not meant to be taken any more seriously than the content they provide. Second, when I played WoW, I found plenty of people who could discuss politics, art, music cogently and effectively. Surprise, surprise, they weren't the same minority who spends time on Trade Chat shouting poop jokes.

It seems every anecdote presented is nothing more than a bad experience that somehow counts for more than exactly what it was--a bad experience. Someone told a story of how after giving out pens to a classroom, all pens were destroyed within minutes. I had four classes where, and in a week, after letting people borrow dozens of pens and pencils, I would lose maybe four-or-five by the end of the week. And these were kids who just misplaced their pen or pencil--almost all my students habitually brought all required materials (something else suggested to be an impossibility).

To add a caveat, I don't think anecdotes are completely invalid. They're just not valid enough alone to carry enough weight to win an argument (in my mind, at least).

Two assertions, at least within the first few pages had been made. That culture was on the rise and that it was on the decline. I think it's probably where it always has been. High art has always been something enjoyed by the minority--if there's been a time when their equal to jazz and opera was bigger than their equal to Justin Beiber, I am unaware of it.

I wonder if it's because they see it as a skill that the kids develop themselves? I remember that IT was going to become the fourth core essential subject. They backtracked on it though - perhaps because in Adult Learning a niche of forty- somethings who were working in low paid employment were the ones likely to be without IT or the oportunity to deveop it, whilst the kids were getting plenty in school, and either It had caught you already, you were working in an industry with IT, or you were a silver surfer with the opportunity to go to classes.