No, Yanni. I think you are on the wrong thread.
A number of other musical articles will shortly be posted here soon on Mozart's first Italian tour of 1770. From which readers can of course draw their own conclusions on the evidence presented.
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No, Yanni. I think you are on the wrong thread.
A number of other musical articles will shortly be posted here soon on Mozart's first Italian tour of 1770. From which readers can of course draw their own conclusions on the evidence presented.
Perhaps, but your performance in 'cleaner cleaning' history and musicology is so wonderfull, I just can't miss it!
Carry on, champ!
Earlier attempts to obtain a cleaner clean failed:Quote:
Originally Posted by Musicology
It took Hawkins 16 years to write A General History of the Science and Practice of Music which was published in 1776. Although this publication was somewhat respected, it soon was overshadowed, with the help of the likes such as Dr Callcott who composed a mockery song against Hawkins [2], by Charles Burney's General History of Music (1776-89). However, in years to come Hawkins's music history was considered to be superior to Burney's music history (compare the 1875 edition of Hawkins's work). Particularly, Burney's discourse on Handel and Bach was viewed as being inadequate [3].
:lol:
In the words of Charles McKay author of - 'Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds'
''In reading the history of nations, we find that, like individuals, they have their whims and their peculiarities; their seasons of excitement and recklessness, when they care not what they do. We find that whole communities suddenly fix their minds upon one object, and go mad in its pursuit; that millions of people become simultaneously
impressed with one delusion, and run after it, till their attention is caught by some new folly more captivating than the first. We see one nation suddenly seized, from its highest to its lowest members, with a fierce desire of military glory; another as suddenly becoming crazed upon a religious scruple, and neither of them recovering its senses
until it has shed rivers of blood and sowed a harvest of groans and tears, to be reaped by its posterity. At an early age in the annals of Europe its population lost their wits about the Sepulchre of Jesus, and crowded in frenzied multitudes to the Holy Land: another age went mad for fear of the Devil, and offered up hundreds of thousands of victims to the delusion of witchcraft. At another time, the many became crazed on the subject of the Philosopher's Stone, and committed follies till then unheard of in the pursuit. It was once thought a venial offence in very many countries of Europe to destroy an enemy by slow poison. Persons who would have revolted at the idea of stabbing a man to the heart, drugged his pottage without scruple. Ladies of gentle birth and manners caught the contagion of murder, until poisoning, under their auspices, became quite fashionable. Some delusions, though notorious to all the world, have subsisted for ages, flourishing as widely among civilized and polished nations as among the early barbarians with whom they originated, -- that of duelling, for instance, and the belief in omens and divination of the future, which seem to defy the progress of knowledge to eradicate entirely from the popular mind. Money, again, has often been a cause of the delusion of multitudes. Sober nations have all at once become desperate gamblers, and risked almost their existence upon the turn of a piece of paper.
To trace the history of the most prominent of these delusions is the object of the present pages. Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one''.
The teacher and the student, having only their 'education', their curriculum, and their desire to socially and culturally conform, believe black is white (and vice versa) in respect of a cartoon figure who has been raised to inconic status and inflated to a point of absurdity. Despite point by point refutation of the myth it is not refuted by the evidence. Still dominating the musical and cultural landscape by the sheer scale of its bombast and eulogy. While the facts of the case, shown in plain view, remain beyond their reach and even their interest.
Do not blame Mozart. He governs the ment in matters of musical history. Which is his function within our 'civilization'. His very raison d'etre.
Hello, Yanni,
How many (musical) composing aliases did Cocchi have? I ask this in all sincerity.
ERS
Cocchi who?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ERS
Gioachino Cocchi.
Never cared to count really but you may do it yourself reading thru my threads.
The problem is he also had quite a few musicien brothers and that his father was using aliases too. It's not therefore easy to distinguish but guesstimating I'd say Antonio Cocchi used less than ten musical aliases whereas Gioachino and his brothers less than thirty.
The Mozarts and 1762 - Vienna
‘No-one familiar with the lives of Gluck, Haydn and Beethoven can fail to appreciate the part played by the aristocracy, in the best sense of the term, in the work of these composers. Mozart, too, was to enjoy such beneficence on his very first visit to Vienna’
(Abert - ‘Mozart’ p. 28)
I suppose as good a place as any to sketch the second musical ‘tour’ of Mozart (which took him, his sister and father to Vienna after they had visited Munich, and which began in late 1762) is to note that Counts Herberstein, Schlick and Palffy had already alerted the Viennese court and aristocracy by letter of the imminent arrival of the ''Mozart prodigies'', and it was not long after this that Leopold was invited to present himself and his two amazing children at the Palace of Schonbrunn on 13th October of that year. Their appearance being only the first of a series of brilliant successes in which ( Abert notes) ‘ their audience’s love of sensation played at least as important a part as any musical interest’’ - (This being one of the great understatements of western musical history, in fact !).
But the two Mozart children, no doubt ''starry eyed'' at their dazzling (even overwhelming) reception in the Austrian capital (and keen to have more of the same) were about to be feted even more by a string of other members of high Viennese aristocracy including Prince Hildburghausen, also Imperial Vice Chancellor Count Colloredo, and Bishop Esterhazy - all of whom invited them to visit their homes, with them invariably fetched by carriage and handsomely rewarded. Needless to say, the best young women of the city soon fell in love with the miraculous young Wolfgang, news of whose arrival appears to have travelled fast, (within the right circles, of course !). These miraculous events followed by their invitation to visit Pressburg from a family of Hungarian aristocrats. On return from where they were invited to attend a dinner given in honour of Field Marshal Daun by Countess Kinsky. And this before the Mozarts, (by this time acclimatised to their prodigious status) returned with adoration still ringing in their ears to their home town of Salzburg in early January 1763. With a string of invitations to attend other operas and dinners.
But that’s not all. Nor would I wish to diminish the scale of the 'Mozart Effect' on the Viennese of late 1762. Abert is only one biographer who is strangely silent about numerous other dignitaries met by the Mozarts in those same wonderful, champagne weeks. Including none other than the Emperor of Austria himself, also Chancellor Kaunitz and of course the newly arrived Ambassador of Russia (himself by coincidence to become a major patron of Mozart over the next 20 years) he being already a close friend of yet another future Mozart patron, the Paris based Baron Melchior Grimm. The Emperor of Japan was not present at these amazing festivities though eventually, he and his ancestors will have no doubt learned of the event. As for the young composer of the F Major minuet (KV2) it would be churlish to remind ourselves it was composed by Leopold Mozart. Or that, at this time (late 1762) the family did not own a keyboard. And, should we wish to criticise Nannerl and Wolfgang for not yet having attended school nor having studied composition or keyboard, these things are of course only incidental - lost in the fog of eulogy, hyperbole and officially downgraded by popular consent to irrelevant status.
But all of this had begun weeks before. From various letters and diary entries etc. we see the Mozarts travelled from Salzburg via Passau after leaving Salzburg, arriving there on 26th September. Where a concert (of some kind) is said to have been given at the home of Bishop Joseph Maria Count von Hohenstein. From where they travelled to Linz by river where they stayed at an inn. At which they are also said to have given a public concert 4 days later. Their first. Not advertised at the time (of course) but made more successful by the fortuitous assistance of none other than the family of the Governor of Upper Austria (Count Leopold Schlick).
Bringing to mind that famous saying of Oscar Wilde that -
‘ I have nothing to declare but my genius’.
Instead of shouting while beating Mozart's horse, Robert, why don't you try giving us details of some great unknowns of the Mozart family entourage, all related to England , like Cowper, Burney and their 1770 detailed whereabouts, for instance, as repeatedly asked?
Alternatively you could as well focus on the two Durazzo brothers whose Genoa history is still somewhat cloudy, with Count Giacomo Durazzo (or Johann Jacob or Giacomo Pier Francesco according to other sources), diplomat and man of theatre who allegedly was the brother of a famous-but with no wikibiography-doge of the republic of Genoa, Marcello Durazzo, from 1767 to 1769.
The doge’s son Giacomo Filippo Durazzo III (1719–1812) was the head of the wealthiest 18th century family in Genoa, Italy, and a notable naturalist and bibliophile etc etc but his mother Clelia Durazzo (1709–1782) was only ten when she gave birth to him. Giacomo Filippo was allegedly married to a Maddalena Pallavicini, hence the later alleged "Durazzo-Pallavicini" link.
Again, you could also try to establish links between 'Pierre-Michel Hennin', appointed in the foreign service of France on le 18 novembre1749 de M. de Puisieulx, ministre des Affaires étrangères, 'Durazzo Marchese (detto Conte) Giacomo Pier Francesco', Ministro Residente della Repubblica di Genova a Vienna dal 21-IX-1749 (data di presentazione delle Credenziali) al maggio del 1752 and 'Gian Luca Pallavicini' who (1749) organizza sulla spianata del Castello grandi concerti sinfonici all'aperto per grande orchestra con musiche di Sammartini , appointed governor of Milano, as from 26th September 1750.
Not to mention 'Carlo Giuseppe de Firmian' and his appointment with full authority by Francis I and Maria Teresa to Naples in 1752 OR 1753 and his eventual links to Ferdinando Galiani, Baron von Gleichen, Gluck etc
"They" all relate so much to Mozart, 1770 or 1762, 1763 etc etc to 1826 or so (Nissen's death), and more so to your own British Foreign Service department who surely have tons of documents on all these 'luminaries' of yours.
And, if 1762 is to be the next topic, you should at least include Gioachino Cocchi, Bricaire de La Dixmerie, Baron Stroganov, comte de Saint Germain, Rousseau, Gluck, Baron Dimsdale, Melchior Grimm, Nikolaus von Jacquin, Joseph Haydn, Frederic de Nicolay, Ludwig Heinrich Nicolay, Heinrich Gottfried Koch, Carl Ludwig Cocceji, Johann Friedrich Cocceji, Pietro Alessandro Guglielmi, Johann Adolf Hasse, Bernardo Tanucci, baron de Van Swieten; le président de Salaberry, Dupin de Francueil (26 April 1763 Paris) as well as all the above, in your detailed timeline as well.
Without it (detailed timeline) you are just producing gas.
Oh, include Florian Leopold Gassmann too, Burney's and Vanhal's 'friend'!
Ta-ta!
Yanni,
Since this thread is on W.A. Mozart, it may surprise you it focuses on W.A. Mozart and rarely refers to others. This is consistent with examining the actual subject of W.A. Mozart. I resist the temptation to be diverted from examining the facts surrounding his early public career by discussing the dozens of men (and their aliases) to whom you obviously wish to refer. And this remains true unless/until we have established the basic facts of W.A. Mozart and his real or supposed musical achievements.
I can produce a list of names 10 times longer than the one you have just posted. Which achieves nothing. So can anyone else. As for you and and those who may be dazzled by your ‘timelines’ (real or imagined) you always have the choice of starting separate threads on any subject.
As for who is ‘producing gas’, may I suggest you take some good advice and produce large volumes of this combustible form of energy on another thread. The alternative being to witness the facts and fictions of Mozart’s musical career. Starting with facts on these early public years. Only a small fraction of which you have read. Only then can we all agree there is a subject worthy of examining and can offer explanations for how it occurred. Expanding it to include the men to whom you have refered and others. There is no other way. Since there are two parts of examining a subject.
1. Proving that the subject is worthy of study. By detailed evidence.
2. Offering an explanation for it.
And the first stage is right here.
If you are unable to start a thread of your own please let me know and I will be very happy to help.
Mozart auf Deutsch.
Es ist höchste Zeit, dass dieser Faden geschlossen wurde !
Hi there Peter,
(Mozart was not born in Germany. Nor was he born in Austria. But in the principality of Salzburg. We speak English. You already knew that didn't you ?
It is always pleasant to advertise that W.A. Mozart (1756-1791), several times in his career, in fact, claimed to be an arch-Englishman. Or, if you prefer, “ich bin ein ErzEngelländer.”
But all of this justifies the thread remaining (as it must) in the English language. And not in German, nor Italian or any other language. And, (for those who may doubt it) here is a well researched article on Mozart confirming the above -
Peter Branscombe: ''Mozart the Arch-Englishman''
http://www.aproposmozart.com/Bransco...0corrected.pdf
Besides, we would not wish to upset rules already well learned by myself and yourself, would we ? Thus English remains. As does daylight. And goodwill to all honest men etc. (Which counts more than anything else. Believe it or not). Change channels if you must.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0sFej5pnVXI
RN
Noch ein weiterer Versuch zu verewigen dieser lächerlichen Unsinn.
Ich verstehe nicht, warum die Steuerung dieser Faden ermöglicht
solche Dummheit, um fortzufahren.
Mozart was just a small part of the story, was created by the "others" you are so desperate to avoid, and was then, post 1823, inflated beyond all reason and proportion to conceal "them", just as you still do, stuck to the "first stage" -his 'diapers'-eversince you joined this forum.
"Hawkins, Cowper* and Burney", the first 'british musicologists', inventors of the famous Bach/Handel soup, would be proud and thankfull of your efforts to keep their secret recipee intact.
Want return to Mozart and their shadow, C.Burney, 1770?
Ta-ta!
*Whom the Mozarts never met, 1770: "Mylord Cowper had contracted catarrh during the journey and had to be excused" :lol:.
But they did meet 'lo scompigliato Burney', (who earlier visited Voltaire and composer 'Gaspard Fritz' in Ferney, Geneva. Wednesday Morning 4th July. The weather is fine and I am in love with this place) later on in Venice (their intention to visit there confirmed by Leopold's letter, Bologna 4 August to his wife and Burney's own notes on Venice, August 5th and 10th) who then writes on the Mozarts , August 30, 1770, “There is no musical excellence I do not expect from the extraordinary quickness and talents, under the guidance of so able a musician and intelligent a man as his father.” In the meantime of course. August 8th and 9th, he felt the need to create 'abate Cirillo Martini'.
As such:
Further to my previous 'tentative 1770 aliases list' please include Leopold's 'Signor Bortolo Tiboni', as well as 'Vittorio Cigna-Santi', 'Quirono Gasparini' and 'Ferdinando Bertoni' (the latter, Martini's pupil and at the time-1770- choirmaster at the Ospedale dei Mendicanti, was allegedly in London 1778–1783, where he composed operas for the King's Theatre. Burney did not meet him however :lol: :lol: :lol:).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Musicology
Peter,
Please do not post here in German language. This thread is in English. It is a thread on the real life and grossly fabricated achievements of the iconic 'genius' composer W.A. Mozart (1756-1791). From researchers who have spent many years examining the actual evidence. The fruits of modern study.
A rare expose of fiction, exaggeration and invention, in fact. If you have evidence to counter what has already been posted you are free to produce it. So can anyone else. That's a good deal. Although there are numerous other articles to come on the same subject. Including one on the legendary story of Mozart writing down from memory the first hearing of a mass by Allegri at the Sistine Chapel in Rome. And on the famous story of the award he received of the Order of the Golden Spur. In 1770. And still another on his famous public concert in Mantua. Leading to the events of 1771.
A gentle introduction to the real world of Mozart, in fact. In 626 volumes.
Always remember -
'Everything you have heard is true'
(And that's official)
J.S. Bach
Concerto
BWV 1062/3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmS-i...eature=related
Yanni,
This thread will examine the life and career of W.A. Mozart in the light of the actual evidence before it offers explanation of how it was achieved. This is the correct way to examine anything.
Anton Dvorak
Trio Op.65/1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y76fs...eature=related
The correct way to examine 'product Mozart' is to find who and why manufactured him (and others like him).
Put Cocchi/Burney's writings on the web and then we'll see!
:coolgleamA:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Musicology
There is no point discussing the manufacture of Mozart unless/until evidence has first been clearly presented 'his' music and 'his' legendary talents were invented and grossly falsified in the first place. This is a story which has almost never been told and which, as we see, tends to drift off in to diversionary subjects that are never resolved. Let us see if those who teach and believe the fairy story can answer from the evidence of what is being presented.
So this is a story in 2 parts.
1. Evidence that Mozart's career was falsified from the start.
Followed by -
2. A description of how and why that was achieved.
Well, if you are set to avoid 'sensitive' subjects, they'll never be resolved!
'Burney' -son of a 'McBurney'* no less:biggrin5: -was the same man as 'Rousseau' and 'Pierre Michel Hennin' (leaving his other aliases be for the moment). Burney's 1770 itinerary shows this and documents furthermore he was still 'fabriicating' stories and aliases at the time.
-Rousseau's and Burney's common musical publications (and later 'exchange of relevant correspondence allowed to be made public'),
-Rousseau's choice to 'die', without a trace, in Paris, 1778 and have London executors for his will (where he kept his-Burney's-50000 volumes music library) and
-the fabrication of a convenient 'Charles Rousseau Burney (1747–1819)', father of Frances, portrayed by Thomas Gainsborough http://www.metmuseum.org/works_of_ar...&OID=110000872
provide, if needed, further evidence that 'the problem' never was merely Mozart's manufacture.
Carry on portefaix, you are on your own from now on!
*http://www.dcs.kcl.ac.uk/staff/mcburney/:'For a period, Charles Burney and his family lived in Isaac Newton's:seeya: former house at 35 St Martin's Street:seeya:, Leicester Square, London.'
Ta ta!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Musicology
Yanni can make a thread on any 'delicate subject' he chooses. (He chooses not to). This thread is on the life and career of W.A. Mozart (1756-1791).
How could I possibly miss this opera buffa* of yours?
*Compliments to Brian Bean!Quote:
Originally Posted by Musicology
Yanni,
Thanks for your amusing comments on opera buffa. We must all see the funny side of Mozart, for sure !
You and Brian will agree this is not opera seria but opera buffa. And here we all agree. Here, for you and Brian especially, is a simple guide to the background to the premiere of 'Mozart's' first major opera 'Idomeneo' (1781). Staged in Munich. Which is generally known as an opera seria. But whose story we will see was no such thing.
THE REHEARSALS FOR MOZART’S OPERA ‘IDOMENEO’
A vast correspondence exists from/to W.A. Mozart on preparations he made in Munich for the premiere of ‘his’ opera ‘Idomeneo’. And we, always keen to avoid ''flogging a dead horse'' with Mozart criticism, will not refer to his convenient use of earlier music in it by G.F. Handel, J.M.Kraus or any other composer. (Since doing so may offend the punters).
The first rehearsals of Mozart's ‘Idomeneo’ began in Munich, Bavaria on 1st December 1780 with the 24 year old Mozart in attendance, its commissioned composer, he having just arrived breathless from Salzburg (to the amazement of all concerned) with virtually nothing composed of its music at the time despite many months having passed since he was commissioned to do so. (Which, as we all know, merely gave the genius another chance to demonstrate his amazing talents. Which he proceeded to do. As we will see).
The first rehearsal of that opera was scheduled for orchestra only. Which is, you may agree, unusual. Whose individual instrumental parts were soon found to be highly problematic, however. So great were these problems in the instrumentation that it was 16 days later before there was a second rehearsal. Of the orchestral parts - to most of the opera. And then a third, on 23rd December. By which time our resident genius, W.A. Mozart, suddenly under great pressure to get the opera ready for performance after months of having done nothing and who had originally been scheduled to return to Salzburg on 16th December, began to realise he was out of his depth. So he starts to blame the librettist and anyone else associated with it. But the third rehearsal was at least attended by several friendly patrons, the Elector of Bavaria and by Max Franz, younger brother of the Emperor Joseph 2nd. Though Mozart’s return to Salzburg (where he was employed) was still not possible due to these continuing and huge problems in the staging of his opera. Weeks more were to pass in what was to become a marathon preparation for its premiere. With the said Mozart literally turning an opera seria into a farce in 3 Acts. (Or, as you may prefer to call it, an 'opera buffa'). When, finally, on 8th January 1781, guests from Mozart's home town of Salzburg, keen to provide moral support for the genius, started to arrive in numbers (including a helpful and most friendly composer named Josef Fiala, who, by one of those wonderful coincidences was later to take up residence for several years in the Mozart household itself in Salzburg (complete with his wife), but on whom there is no reason to go here in to the details.). Fiala (after some small help with the problems) taking his place in the audience for its eventual production. Though, in fact, Act 3 was still not ready. So 5 days later, on 13th January 1781 rehearsals were finally made of Act 3 of this extraordinary opera. And on 18th January 1780 more rehearsals for Mozart’s opera ‘Idomeneo’ continued on that day - but only of its recitatives ! And on 20th January other guests, hearing of the unfolding fiasco and keen to make their contribution, were persuaded to arrive in Munich in numbers from Salzburg themselves, all eager to belong to the adoring audience at its eventual production. These joined, six days later, on 26th January 1781by the arrival of none other than Leopold Mozart and his wife. On the 27th finally came the dress rehearsal of the whole opera. (This nearly 2 months after rehearsals had first started). With the date of the premiere had already been rescheduled twice and running many weeks late. Tempers were getting frayed. The opera finally premiered on 29th January 1781 and was repeated on 3rd February and 3rd March. (Mozart by these dates already due in Vienna had left the city). Planned further performances of 'Idomeneo' for 5th, 12th, 19th and 26th February were abandoned, with no records of any payment being made to its composer. Which is itself a remarkable fact.
A single, scathing report of the music performed at the premiere of ''Idomeneo'' survives in a Munich newspaper of the time. Whose editor dismisses it as being largely composed of recitatives and having been poorly received by its audience - except for Mozart's usual admirers. Who included, of course, ’rent a crowd’ from Salzburg. Plus, of course, the usual patrons.
And so it came about that opera seria became comic opera. Thanks to the single handed genius of W.A. Mozart. As Yanni and Brian have suggested.
You are jumping to premature conclusions: The possibility that Leopold and/or Wolfgang-later as Nissen-are covering up the traces of 'Josef Fiala' aka 'Myslivecek' (see 'both' meeting and inspiring junior Mozart in October 1777) and possibly 'Rosetti' has to be taken into account instead of trusting ridiculous "source" references such as:
Josepf Fiala: In 1777 he moved to Munich to serve in the court orchestra of Elector Maximilian Joseph. That year in Munich, Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart was greatly impressed by the wind band trained by Fiala, and helped Fiala secure a position in 1778 after the death of the Elector. In 1785 Fiala moved to Vienna, and in 1786 to Saint Petersburg where he worked in the court of Catherine the Great
I'll prepare a relevant 1777-8 timeline in an attempt to clear things up.
In the meantime either find out Burney's 1777-1781 detailed whereabouts or learn something on chess or minerals (Comte Alexandre Collini or Colini was director of the Natural History Cabinet of Mannheim, where he wrote 'Solution du problème du cavalier au jeu des échecs' and several more amongst which a book on Agates,1776/77)
The focus on 'Idomeneo' and Munich was a temporary reward to Yanni and Brian. Since Yanni specifically mentioned 'opera buffa' and 'opera seria'.
We return now to Mozart, still on his legendary first tour of Italy in 1770, since there are a number of other articles to come on events of that year.
(We hope Yanni does not fail to see the wood for the trees).
Your "wood" is "Burney-ing" and you- can but-focus on Mozart's 'bush'.
I suggest you should contact Wikipedia and edit their Charles Burney article claiming that Frances was Charles Burney's daughter (bypassing her alleged 'father', ie your fictitious 'Charles Rousseau Burney'):
Quote:
His eldest son, James Burney, was a distinguished officer in the royal navy, who died a rear-admiral in 1821; his second son was the Rev. Charles Burney; and his second daughter was Frances or Fanny,
While you do that, DO PROVIDE them (and us here) also with Burney's detailed 1770 to 1815 whereabouts and, AFTER you do all that, THEN extinguish the fire from your pants, Pyr-as*!
:hurray:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Musicology
I hope to post here in the next 24 hours a very remarkable article by L. Bianchini on the famous episode of young W.A. Mozart copying down from memory in Rome the 'Miserere' of Gregorio Allegri (1582-1650) during his first visit there in 1770. An incident so famous, so much part of musical folklore and even enshrined within Mozart 'biography' that its details deserve to be examined here.
Jan Dismas Zelenka (1679-1745)
Confitebor tibi Domine in C-minor
ZWV.71
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWbSc...eature=related
Another field of research for brave 'new age' brit musicologists is, imo, C.Burney's links (and re biographic contributions) to 'Gluck', whose best current online career- http://law-guy.com/classics/blog/?page_id=530: - is practicaly based on 'C.Burney's' thirty or so 'source' :hand: references (Gluck's Vienna period 1752-56 is understandably somewhat wanting in detail).
Here is an interesting abstract hinting at 'Charles Rousseau Burney's' double life as 'Gioachino Cocchi/Gluck/Rousseau'/Hennin etc' (ie 'Handel/Bach/Antonio Cocchi's' son):
Burney, writing with benefit of hindsight (BurneyH, ii, 844), remarked on one of the more striking numbers in Gluck’s first London opera, La caduta de’ giganti:
The following air [‘Sì, ben mio, sarò, se il vuoi’], for [Angelo Maria] Monticelli, is very original in symphony and accompaniments, which a little disturbed the voice-part in performance, I well remember, and Monticelli called it aria tedesca. His [Gluck's] contemporaries in Italy, at this time, seemed too much filed down; and he wanted the file, which when used afterwards in that country, made him one of the greatest composers of his time.
The passage is telling on several counts. Though said to be ‘original in symphony’, the piece was in fact a parody of an aria in the earlier opera Tigrane; the combination in Gluck of fervid imagination and frequent reliance on borrowing and parody (nearly always for an audience different from the original one) constitutes one of the most intriguing paradoxes of his career. The labelling of accompanimental complexities as ‘German’ was a commonplace in the later 18th century, being applied notably also to Jommelli during and after his Stuttgart years. Interestingly, Burney claims that it was in Italy that Gluck’s style was subject to ‘the file’, by which he presumably means experience in writing for the finest singers and the most discriminating opera seria audiences. It is clear that Gluck profited greatly from his contacts with numerous celebrated singers during his early career, in ways that will probably become better understood as modern interpreters recover the vocal and acting techniques of that era and study the careers of the artists in question. His debt to his teacher Sammartini is obvious not only from actual borrowings, but also from many similarities of manner, such as the exchange of motifs between the violin parts (e.g. in the sinfonia to Don Juan of 1761).
The most applauded number from Gluck’s London sojourn was the aria ‘Rasserena il mesto ciglio’ in Artamene, about which however Burney complained that its ‘motivo’, though grateful, was ‘too often repeated, being introduced seven times, which, there being a Da Capo, is multiplied to fourteen’ (BurneyH, ii, 845). (The criticism could be applied to any of a number of Gluck’s sentimental arias, such as the above-mentioned ‘Se il mio duol’ in Ipermestra.) More than a quarter of a century later, when Burney reminded Gluck of the fame of the aria, the composer responded with remarks which were meant to be flattering to the Englishman, but which also probably contained more than a grain of truth (see BurneyGN, i, 267–8):
He told me that he owed entirely to England the study of nature in his dramatic compositions … He … studied the English taste, and finding that plainness and simplicity had the greatest effect upon them, he has, ever since that time, endeavoured to write for the voice, more in the natural tones of the human affections and passions, than to flatter the lovers of deep science or difficult execution; and it may be remarked, that most of his airs in Orfeo are as plain and simple as English ballads …
The resemblances between Handel’s and Gluck’s styles are many, particularly in tender or pathetic airs, where one finds similar galant configurations of part-writing, and it has been demonstrated (Roberts, H1995) that Gluck’s acquaintance with the elder composer’s music (and even his borrowing from it) predated his stay in England. But the stylistic differences are rather more numerous (Gluck’s slower harmonic rhythm and greater reliance on accompaniments with drum basses, for example, and his more independent wind writing), owing to the simple fact that the composers were of different generations.
Burney did find it important to promote, after 1771, Gluck's early diagnosed 1745 London 'madness' via an alleged* letter from Metastasio to Farinelli he quotes:
The ‘Gluckian’ reform of opera owed much to the force of the composer’s personality, musical and otherwise – to his ‘fuoco meraviglioso, ma pazzo’, in Metastasio’s words (letter of 6 November 1751). :smilielol5:
*Metastasio's letters have evidently been 'censored' -like everything else concerning this 'story'!
In 1770 Rome experienced two visits from the Mozart family. The legends of that time including the 14 year old Wolfgang transcribing from memory a sacred mass of G. Allegri and his award later with papal approval of the Order of the Golden Spur. (Through papal Secretary Pallavicni). Here is the PDF on this issue representing the findings of modern musical and historical research on this story. With a further part to come on the Order of the Golden Spur, its status at the time and other material related to that award.
http://www.mediafire.com/?b82le76jzn2rih
'Prove all things and hold fast to that which is good'
Further chapters of the Mozart visit to Italy of 1770 follow soon.
JS Bach
Magnificat
Opening
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYtSG...feature=fvwrel
Would this Duke of Egmont be John Perceval?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Pe...Earl_of_Egmont
Propably Roman Catholic (Irish), why on earth would he have been excommunicated, especially in 1734?
He was, however, a 'Handel's opera fan' (Handel's operas, 1726-1741 by Winton Dean) and his Perceval title does connect him to the french "Caussin de Percevals" of my story!:lol:
The exact date and further details are needed on the 1734 Miserere concert in the Crown Tavern to see who (Galuppi or 'Handel' or perhaps 'Hasse')directed it and on what occasion! (August III, crowned King of Poland in May 1734. On 30 June 1734, a Russian army of 20,000 under Peter Lacy*, after proclaiming August III the Saxon at Warsaw, proceeded to besiege Stanisław at Danzig, where he was entrenched with his partisans (including the Primate and the French and Swedish ministers) to await the relief that had been promised by France. However, this royal Saxon conversion to Roman Catholicism explains why Bach the Lutheran, later appointed court composer to August III, wrote masses.)
Same for 1743 if you please!
Conclusion: 'Burney' is covering up his father's ('Handel') Miserere copy via 'Nissen's' manufactured "Mozart letters" (just as 'Hennin' manufactured his correspondence with Voltaire, 'Collini' his 'Sejourn' etc etc.)
Ta ta
*Irish general of the Russian army!
Stories of that kind had in fact already circulated in London as early as 1734. When in that year the Royal Society organized "a choral concert of the famous Miserere by Allegri in the Crown Tavern." To advertise it, they insisted, (but without providing proofs), it was a sacred composition "whose copy is prohibited under pain of excommunication, and it has been procured for the society of concerts by the Duke of Egmont." As the Duke of Egmont was not excommunicated for staging this London concert, this surely speaks for itself. And when in April 1743 (9 years later), the same work was performed again in London no one even referred to any story of excommunication. The fact is Allegri's Miserere was popular everywhere across Europe and it was (and always was) nonsense to speak of prohibiting it from being copied under threat of excommunication. If anything what was complained about tended to be the quality of its performances. "The Miserere" they said, "was the first work ever to be performed here by three very good voices, but fourteen who were really bad." Furthermore the Mozarts in 1770 already had access to these British musical sources during their stay in London in 1765 (see the chapter on Symphony K.16). They could also see its music if they wished to see a copy that had been made by and was still being held by Padre Martini in Bologna. (The very Franciscan who had let Burney copy it). Contrary to popular belief there were many copies of Allegri's Miserere already available in numerous music archives in Vienna, Germany and Portugal. Burney obtained access to it without difficulty and he did so in Rome also ! He even asked a papal singer for the score of a Miserere, who gave it to him. He was able to compare this work with other copies, which were asked from many different people. 14
Yanni,
For the benefit of readers here I will post again the link to the PDF just completed. I hope you agree that it represents a detailed criticism of convention on this issue. A modern reply to the fairy story of Mozart in Italy 1770.
http://www.mediafire.com/?ti1hxeknllp8exv
And I will focus on that subject. So we can examine each aspect in the detail it deserves before we attempt to explain the means by which those things were done. So that we will not be diverted from the subject under examination. The life, career and actual achievements of W.A. Mozart.
Thank you for your understanding.
Examining Mozart's links to his manufacturer IS the only way to understand "the life, career and actual etc" of Mozart but it's apparently off limits for Mr Bianchini and his "translator-promoter-editor", both focusing exclusively on Mozart's diapers.
Thus, you waste an awfull amount of words and translator efforts to prove the obvious, that the whole 'Mozart story' is 'made up', and to focus next on Mozart's fake 'Allegri story', exhausting it 'scientifically' and 'musiclogicaly' but ommiting the fact there never was a '1770 Cardinal Pallavicini' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lazaro_Opizio_Pallavicino whose bypassed 'absence' would have made your own 'study' so much simpler!
'Firmian' and 'Count Pallavicini-Centurioni', cardinal Lazaro's distant nephew, are both aliases of your very own 'Charles-Rousseau-Burney', manufacturer of 'Casanova' (whom you quote as source, hah-hah) and 'Joseph Haydn' among others.
Same for 'Myslivecek' whose 'La Ninetti' was first performed at the Teatro Nuovo Pubblico in Bologna on 29 April 1770, a month after Mysliveček first made the acquaintance of Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart and his father Leopold the previous month in the same city.[1], one of the many reasons of Leopold's 'Italian tour'. And indeed 'Rome' still follows in step -and silence- which I find truly amazing!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special...io_Pallavicino :lol:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Musicology
Cardinal PALLAVICINO, Lazzaro Opizio (1719-1785)
Birth. October 30, 1719, Genoa.
Education. La Sapienza University, Rome (doctorate in utroque iure, both canon and civil law).
Early life. Referendary of the Supreme Tribunals of the Apostolic Signature of Justice and of Grace. Provincial governor of Marche Anconitana, November 8, 1751. Received the minor orders, February 17, 1754; subdiaconate, February 24, 1751; diaconate, March 10, 1754.
Priesthood. Ordained, March 19, 1754.
Episcopate. Elected titular archbishop of Lepanto, April 1, 1754. Consecrated, April 7, 1754, Rome, by Cardinal Federico Marcello Lante. Assistant at the Pontifical Throne, April 16, 1754. Nuncio in Naples, May 21, 1754. Nuncio in Spain, February 9, 1760.
Cardinalate. Created cardinal priest in the consistory of September 26, 1766. Legate in Bologna, December 1, 1766. Received the red hat and the title of Ss. Nereo ed Achilleo, June 20, 1768. Participated in the conclave of 1769, which elected Pope Clement XIII. Secretary of State, May 19, 1769 until his death. Participated in the conclave of 1774-1775, which elected Pope Pius VI. Camerlengo of the Sacred College of Cardinals, January 29, 1776 until February 17, 1777. Opted for the title of S. Pietro in Vincoli, December 14, 1778. Ambassador plenipotentiary to conclude the treaty with Venice, October 3, 1783.
Death. February 23, 1785, Rome. Exposed in the church of S. Maria sopra Minerva, Rome, where the funeral took place, and buried in the church of the hermit monks of S. Giovanni Battista, Rome, according to his will.
Bibliography. Del Re, Niccolò. La Curia romana : lineamenti storico giuridici. 4th ed. aggiornata ed accresciuta. Città del Vaticano : Libreria Editrice Vaticana, 1998, p. 89.
///
(Pallavacino was Secretary of State to the Papacy in 1770. As you see above. The surname can be spelled in different ways. This is not unusual at the time. I know one composer whose surname has more than 6 spellings).
Count Gian Luca Pallivacini was the host of the Mozarts during the time of their visit to Padre Martini in Bologna and his relative was the above Cardinal Count Lazzaro Opizio Pallavacini in Rome.
We will continue to focus on the actual life and the actual career of W.A. Mozart. Yanni can post what he likes. Preferably on Mozart because this thread is on Mozart. It is the 5th time he has been told about this.
http://www.mediafire.com/?ti1hxeknllp8exv
//
There was only one 'Cardinal Lazaro Pallavicini' who died 1680 and had a brother Stefano who died sometime later. No male descendants, their Rome palazzo then passed to their niece 'Rospigliosi' according to:
http://www.casinoaurorapallavicini.i...allavicini.htm Il cardinale Lazzaro, assicuratasi, così, la discendenza, ormai cagionevole di salute, ma carico di anni (78) e di benemerenze, chiudeva serenamente la sua vita terrena in Roma, nel 1680. Suo fratello Stefano lo doveva seguire nella tomba pochi anni dopo. La nipote Maria Camilla Rospigliosi, che negli ultimi anni della sua vita si dedicò più intensamente ad opere di beneficenza, stabilì per testamento che il rispettivo padre e zio fossero tumulati nella cappella gentilizia di San Francesco a Ripa in un unico sontuoso monumento funerario da erigersi a proprie spese. Maria Camilla spirò il 6 settembre 1710, e il duca di Zagarolo, Giovan Battista Rospigliosi, rispettoso della volontà della pia consorte, incaricò l'architetto Nicolò Michetti e lo scultore Giuseppe Mazzuoli di costruire sulla parete sinistra della cappella un monumento abbinato per il suocero Stefano Pallavicini e per il di lui fratello cardinale Lazzaro e di costruire sulla parete destra, un altro monumento analogo per la moglie Maria Camilla e per se stesso. Giovan Battista morì, ultimo dei quattro, il 13 luglio 1722.
Palazzo Pallavicini-Rospigliosi however never belonged to this cardinal* (who allegedly only built a galleria for his art collection (!) -propably originating from Florence-there at 'some uknown time'(!)) but was under french influence, belonging first to cardinal Mazarino passing then to the Mancini family, his heirs.
So the Vatican story looks fishy (the second cardinal Lazaro coming from Genoa and 'in the picture' as Referendary of the Supreme Tribunals of the Apostolic Signature of Justice and of Grace. Provincial governor of Marche Anconitana, November 8, 1751-see my 'Pierre Michel Hennin' fully empowered then by both France and Austria to act all over 'Italy') the more so when paralleled to Palais Pallavicini, Vienna, constructed 1784 (terrible year for anyone constructing his 'palais') by an unknown (architect?, owner?) 'Johann Friedrich Hetzendorf von Hohenberg'.
And Wikipedia's 'famiglia Pallavicini' has no real 'Genoa branch' among the seven or eight other branches described.
And there is this 'mix up' in Monsignor Del Re's "Pallavicini" marbles as per http://www2.fiu.edu/~mirandas/consistories-xviii.htm:
Note 1. Niccolò del Re, in his book Monsignor governatore di Roma (1972), indicates that Filippo Buondelmonte, governor of Rome and vice-camerlengo of the Holy Roman Church, died on June 19, 1741, alla vigilia of his promotion to the cardinalate.
Note 2. According to Suite de la Clef, ou Journal historique sur les matières du tems. Contenant quelques nouvelles de littérature, & autres remarques curieuses. LIV (Juillet 1743), 360, Pope Benedict XIV intended to promote Francesco Maria Pallavicini, titular archbishop of Naupactus (ie Lepanto) , to the cardinalate, but he declined and instead was named titular patriarch of Antioch. The source erroneously indicates that he was titular archbishop of Teba and nuncio in Florence, confusing him, as far as this posts, with Archbishop Lazzaro Pallavicini. The same information is provided by L'ami de la religion et du roi : journal ecclésiastique, politique et littéraire, C (1743), 20-21, in an article about cardinals dimissionary.
:smilielol5:
Julliet 1743, still marks the month and year of Rousseau's appointment as secretary to the French Embassy in Rome!!]:smilielol5:
Add to all that "Cardinal Lazaro II's" correspondence with 'Firmian/Pallavicini-Centurioni'....
.....the conclusion is:
He was as 'fake' as they all (his aliases) were...but did control Rome too!
And what you do is you business, junior, until it becomes 'indecent exposure' one too many.
:cool:
*The palace served as the French embassy in Rome prior before it moved to its more spacious current accommodation at the Palazzo Farnese(note by me: they moved there after 1911, see http://www.romanguide.com/renaissanc...o-farnese.html). In 1704, the palace became a property of the Rospigliosi-Pallavicini (!)family, who still own it and who enriched its decoration and completed its present art gallery.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palazzo...ni-Rospigliosi
Quote:
Originally Posted by Musicology
Yanni,
So the Papal Secretary in Rome between May 1769 and February 1785 was who, exactly ? History says it was Pallavicini. Who was the Cardinal who was Ambassador Plenipotentiary for the Papacy at the Treaty of Venice in 1785 ? It was the same man. Who was the Cardinal who attended the papal conclaves of 1769 and 1774-5 in the name of Cardinal Pallavicini if it was not the same Cardinal Pallavicini ? But you, Yanni, are going to show us contrary evidence, aren't you ? Because everyone is tired of your allegations without presenting any real evidence. You are on a Mozart thread. Multiple personalities are not unheard of. But you must now present clear evidence. And I will continue to focus on the life and career of W.A. Mozart (1756-91).
Read this - one of hundreds of references.
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=H...vicini&f=false
And here is another with many references -
http://www.archive.org/stream/histor...ge/90/mode/2up
Here is your chance to tell us.
Stick to your sticky sources, Junior!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Musicology
I think the pdf on the Miserere is amazing - there are many things I simply did not know. Mozart probably not even hearing it is one example ! Thanks for the link, Musicology. Why don't you sort all links on one page, maybe on the first message of the thread ? How did you start working with Luca Bianchini ?
Ligniville
Quote:
Originally Posted by Musicology
Letter signed by Cardinal Lazzaro Opizio Pallavicini (1719-1785), as Papal Secretary 20th June 1778 announcing the death of Voltaire. Mozart was in Paris at this time and also refers to it in his letter of 3rd July 1778.
Item 204 below -
http://www.bibliorare.com/pdf/cat-ve...-12-09-cat.pdf
QUOTE OF THIS MOZART THREAD
''The career of '''Mozart" is of minor concern to me''
(Source - Yanni - Post No. 41)
Antidote - Try Something Else !
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZ9qW...eature=related
When you* find serious sources on "Jean Jacques Rousseau's" appointment as secretary to the French ambassy in Venice, 1743 OR indeed on his alleged boss, the ambasssador 'Pierre Francois de Montaigu', 1743, call again.
They http://www.montaguemillennium.com/fa...777_pierre.htm don't know him but we do (know Handel'Amyand/Desaguliers''s relations to the Montagues) don't we?
:yawnb:
*or Leo Damrosh http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leo_Damrosch.
Yanni,
When you are prepared to talk about the life and career of W.A. Mozart, call again. Otherwise you are once again on the wrong thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by yanni
Just a quick (off topic) note: Johann Ferdinand Hetzendorf von Hohenberg was an architect and by no means was he "unknown".Quote:
Originally Posted by yanni