The puzzle of Beethoven's Kochs!

Further connection between Salomon (previously of Bonn) and the works of 'Hadyn' presented in London or said to be by Haydn and brought to London -

Manuscript version of 'Haydn's' London symphonies certainly exists in Salomon's handwriting. It was written in London on English paper watermarked by a crown over fleur-de-lys shield and 'GR 1794'. The date of these 'arrangements' is remarkably early because, officially, Salomon did not have a commercial contract with Joseph Hadyn in London for these works until 1795. These versions seem to have been made very fast. It is very possible these works came to London and Salomon, in 1794 copied them in his own handwriting to publish them as 'his' arrangements'. Paris known to have been involved in arriving at final forms of these works. But these versions (in the Salomon manuscript) show they were performed in London. They were later published in this form as ‘XII GRAND SYMPHONIES by Haydn, arranged as Quintets by JP Salomon'. The Salomon manuscript is definitely written on paper with a watermark from 1794. The watermark has a crown over a fleur-de-lys in a shield. They include symphonies 97, 93, 94, 98, 95, 104, 103, 102, 99, 101, and 100 and seem to have been published in 2 volumes.

These scores are for Flute, Viol (1mo). Viol, 2 do. Viola and Cello (replacing 'Basso' which has been erased at the start of Symphony 97). There is no indication of an independent double bass line in these arrangemens. Salomon's score contains no written out keyboard part also. The bass line is figured only rarely.

//

Note - (R. Newman)

Thus, beyond reasonable doubt, the procurement of 'Haydn' works for this two tours of London involved Salomon, as did the fact of Haydn's close association with Bonn both before and after his visits to England. Further confirmed by known association of 'Haydn' symphonies with the career of Viotti when he was for years in Paris associated with the French court, and with the known visit to Esterhazy of composer G. Sarti. Whose own earlier operas were musical influential and strikingly found in Hadyn's 'Armida' of that year 1783/4.

A network, in fact, of which Salomon was a major, crucial part. Since it was Salomon who arranged the two Haydn visits to London. Featuring works attributed to Joseph Haydn but actually involving Sarti, Luchesi at Bonn (teacher of the young Beethoven), and various other composers such as Gyrowetz. Also involving Esterhazy, Bonn and Paris. And not exclusively G. Cocchi. Indeed, that 'Haydn's' works anticipate Beethoven's style is plainly heard by numerous examples of 'his' late symphonies etc.

And finally, from Vol. 3 of Thomas Busby, ‘Anecdotes of Music and Musicians’ Vol 3 p. 93 (1828) - details of the almost unknown musical status of Josef Haydn at the time of his arrival in England in the early 1790‘s. (And ignored ever since by the music industry. Wonder why ?) -

‘Haydn’s genius made him the composer of reward of his great talents. One of his earliest bargains, for the copyright of his compositions, was made with Forster, the cello maker. On that occasion an agreement was entered in to by Count van Swieten, on the part of Haydn, with John Ashley, the Elder, on the part of Forster along the following terms -

‘Joseph Haydn of Vienna is about to sell certain musical compositions to William Forster of London. As the said Josef Haydn is a composer of NO CELEBRITY in music he agrees to furnish the said William Forster with sonatas, quartets and symphonies at half the usual price that is usually demanded of composers who are well known’.

//

So much for the ‘great and celebrated Josef Haydn’ !! And this deal made 1791/2, since Haydn is then in Vienna - late in his career. In fact, hardly able to hold a pen in his hand according to various sources. Due to an illness.

But then, what's new in the fantasy world of Josef Haydn and W.A. Mozart ? Only the landscape where, before, stood two idols blocking the sunlight.

You keep on repeating the same false interpretations of my writings even if they have been all strongly denied by me in this here thread and your "Mozart Manufactured". As such I can only question both your reasoning and your reasons but have no interest to readdress them.

The issue of our last posts has been Cocchi's alias "Joseph Haydn" and this last of yours simply does not address the very specific issues raised by me with regard to his 1791-1792 London visit.

My sympathies.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Musicology

Yanni,

You are obviously determined to prove (to your own satisfaction, at least) that G. Cocchi was author of the works of almost unlimited numbers of people, although your 'timeline' is entirely your own, has not been presented here and is unlikely to be, and nor can you begin to tell us how one man could possibly have achieved all you claim of Cocchi, without a vast network existing of which he was but a part. But of the aims and purposes of such a network or of one giant Cocchi you have no real suggestion, nor have you ever spent time to examine the nature of the network in which he operated or it's major and obvious weaknesses. They consist of dozens, even hundreds of weaknesses which would be, frankly, laughed at. But your notes do make sense if you see Cocchi as one element of a far larger picture. That of an entire network, of which Cocchi was one part. And is that not what I have repeatedly suggested from the start ?

You refer to Ferney. But here again Voltaire met Casanova at Ferney. Proof positive Cocchi is Voltaire and is also Casanova, no doubt ? One could waste one's entire life on such things. And I would not like you to waste your time in realising (as the evidence so plainly says) members of the Cocchi clan were only one group of people within a vast cultural network. Known more widely as the 'Enlightenment' but consisting of fraternal associates who invented (amongst other things) the careers of their own invented heroes.

I post here text of the exchanges recently made with the Music Library Director of the Royal College of Music here in London reference background to the 3 'Haydn' operas associated with his two visits to London in 1791/2. As earlier promised. Indicating (as already said) none of these 3 'Haydn' operas were his. I offer this as further proof that I am not dogmatic about anything. That I have (unlike others) being willing from the start to attribute to G. Cocchi the role of being an active musical member of a vast network, part of whose aim was to create the mythical reputations of Haydn and Mozart. Since no other interpretation makes sense and none is consistent with the evidence I have found. Anyway here, in several posts, are the text of those exchanges with Dr. Horton of the Royal College of Music in London, reference Haydn and 'his' operas associated with London, none of which were performed there. So you see I've examined that matter in some detail. As said earlier. And have numerous other notes on just that one subject of 'Haydn operas'. These posts may convince you this affair is not exclusively Cocchi, but involved various other composers. If it convinces you of that I will be glad to know of it -

(I will continue on a second post). Anyway, here goes -

Dear Dr Horton,

10th January 2010

JOSEF HAYDN AUTOGRAPH SCORE OF THE OPERA 'ARMIDA' (1783/4) AT THE LIBRARY OF THE ROYAL COLLEGE OF MUSIC, LONDON

Thank you for help over a number of years on various enquiries related to the musical assets of the RCM Library.

I understand from a number of sources the RCM Library possesses the autograph score of Josef Haydn's opera 'Armida' (1783/4) written at Esterhazy. If so, may I please ask a few questions of this particular operatic score ?

1. Am I correct in thinking this operatic score at RCM is complete ?

2. Does RCM library also hold performance parts of this opera from the late 18th or early 19th century ?

3. Is it known how this operatic score first came to be in the RCM Library ? Did it possibly come to London with Josef Haydn himself during one of his two visits made here in the 1790's - (at which time Haydn had hopes to write another opera but which, as it happened, remained unfinished) ? Any information on the arrival here in England of that score of 'Armida' and of how it frst arrived at the RCM would certainly be very useful.

and finally -

4. Does RCM Library hold any musical scores by composers such as Giuseppe Sarti (1729-1802) ?

Regards

Robert Newman

//

To which I received the following reply -(dated 11th January 2010)


Dear Mr Newman,

Thank you for your enquiry. We do indeed hold the autograph score of Haydn’s 'Armida', but it lacks 30 folios from Act 2 (the end of scene 6, scene 7 and part of scene 8). These are now in the Houghton Library of Harvard University – see Anthony van Hoboken, Joseph Haydn Thematisch-bibliographisches Werkverzeichnis (Mainz: B. Schott’s Söhne, 1971), vol. 2, p420-21, for details. We do not, however, possess performance parts and it was not in fact performed in London as a result of the retirement of J. Gallini, who had commissioned it for the King’s Theatre, before Haydn’s score had arrived. Unknown to those in London , the work had been composed for Esterhazy in 1784.


Joseph Salomon acted as agent for Haydn in England and, as Gallini refused to accept the score, took possession of it (and paid for it) himself. On Salomon’s death it was bequeathed to William Ayrton who subsequently sold it and it passed into the ownership of the Earl of Falmouth. After the latter’s death in 1852 it was sold (in 1853) as part of his library and acquired by the Sacred Harmonic Society, whose library was in turn presented to the RCM on its opening in 1883.

We have a number of manuscripts by Sarti, details of many of which can be found in the RCM online catalogue.

With best wishes,

Dr Peter Horton
Reference Librarian
Royal College of Music
Prince Consort Road
London SW7 2BS
UK

//

And I wrote again (11th January 2010) -

OPERATIC SCORE OF HAYDN'S 'ARMIDA' (1783)

Thank you so very much for the highly informative and speedy reply to my questions on 'Armida'.

I have to hand various works such as 'Concert Life in London from Haydn to Mozart' by S. McVeigh and 'Amico - The Life of Giovanni Battista Viotti' by W. Lister (with various other publications related to the history of the London opera scene of that time) and am so very grateful you have filled in a number of glaring gaps in my knowledge on this subject of 'Armida'. Frankly, I was completely unaware 'Armida' was originally intended to be performed in London under an arrangement made betweeen Gallini and Josef Haydn ! Does any documentary evidence exist of a 'deal' made for Haydn's 'Armida' to be staged in London ? And, if its cancellation was due to Gallini's retirement under what circumstances was 'L'anima del filosofo, ossia Orfeo ed Euridice' planned for London performance during Haydn's tours here ? Is it your view this opera was begun by Haydn only after the plan to stage 'Armida' had already collapsed ?

Please forgive me writing again at length but the content of your letter is of such great interest to me. Secondly, since the score of 'Armida' came to London with Haydn/Salomon on tour here was it cancelled before their arrival ? Or have I misunderstood you ? I have no knowledge of when or what agreement was made between Gallini and Salomon/J. Haydn on this work. The reason is that 'L'anima del filosofo, ossia Orfeo ed Euridice' was itself planned for London performance during Haydn's tours though it too was not staged as you know. But was this last opera begun by Haydn after plans to stage 'Armida' had collapsed ? I am obviously missing some documentation of which I was not aware.

And finally, I note 30 folios are missing in London from the score of 'Armida' which are today at Harvard. Which brings me to my last point and question on this opera.

You will already be aware of the curious fact that -

A facsimile of an autograph page of 11 bars by Mozart of what H.C. Robbins Landon called, "corrections to the score'' of the closing duet in Act I of Armida". (K506a Nr.4). This autograph page is today held at the MS Department of the University of Bonn. These are not 'corrections' but alterations in 3 coloratura passages in that duet. In 1982 G. Federer pointed out this 'Mozart' version had even been entered into a copy of this work today held at Einstadt (Landes Museum). This (supposedly) originating from a copy made by a later Vienna copyist. Alan Tyson noted this Mozart autograph page (11 bars long) is written on paper definitely made after 1784.

Furthermore, an account by one of Haydn's very earliest biographers, Framery, states that G. Sarti had attended a performance of Armida in Eszterhaza, and was fascinated by this work. ( 'Armida' was as you know to some extent influenced by Sarti's earlier 'Giulio Sabino' (premiered in Venice) which was itself later performed at Esterhaza).

So my last (third) question is -

Are there any plans for the missing 30 folios of this score to be returned to RCM Library ?

Thank you for any further assistance in these queries.


//

Continued on another post.

//

---

Yanni,

Have you obtained any evidence of G. Cocchi being involved with the careers of Baron van Swieten (patron of both Haydn and Mozart), or of being involved with Salomon (formerly of Bonn Hofkapelle) - since both (as you see) made the arrangements for Haydn to come to London in the first place. Thus, if your Cocchi fits within that documented scenario we can examine Cocchi's role in it. But not otherwise.

Perhaps you have some information on this ? If not I will continue to say that Luchesi, Kapellmeister of Bonn, was the true composer of numerous later 'Haydn' symphonies, just as the Italian composer Sammartini was the supplier to the same Haydn of many of 'his' earlier ones. Assisted later by composers such as Gyrowetz and G. Sarti who were involved in the supply to the same Haydn of various of 'his' operas, again with the assistance of Andrea Luchesi, Kapellmeister at Bonn. Since that is overwhelmingly indicated by the totality of the actual musical and biographical evidence.

And, with the best will in the world, wishing G. Cocchi to be author of all of this music (together with the works of his vast number of other 'aliases') becomes less and less probable.

I again repeat G. Cocchi was a part of a vast musical network. And an important though still undefined part. But by no means its nucleus as you seem determined to believe. I have hardly scratched the surface of the proofs which suggest this process involved many fraternal composers, patrons, managers and publishers. Thinking you would accept it.

Here, once again, in a operatic aria by G. Sarti. Does it not sound like Haydn/Mozart, to you ? And is Sarti also another name for G. Cocchi ?

http://www.mediafire.com/?zqul5to4gtk

It was never my wish to change your mind. But to share, and to understand each other's viewpoint. I think I've done this.

But best wishes anyway


Regards

Engaging the same old slander on Cocchi "author of all music" shows how desperate you are, Robert.

I never wrote so, in fact I have repeatedly denied it, explaining otherwise and in detail, so, unless you can support your re claim quoting specific posts of mine, kindly proceed to a next thread at your earliest and never mind about the Regent bowing to Haydn, patronised by van Swieten perhaps.

I don't think I'm 'slandering' Cocchi. But I am trying to understand what you believe of him, in terms of music.

For your information, Yanni, the careers of Mozart and Haydn were both supported by fraternities. Many of them part of the Illuminatist movement which controlled most of German language publishing. As said so often here on this thread. And which included Baron van Swieten himself. Also the Bonn music publisher Simrock (himself a member at Bonn), plus Ch.G. Neefe, plus numerous others associated with the Bonn musical scene. It also included Waldstein, patron of the young Beethoven. And van Swieten (as any reader of musical history knows) was a vitally important patron to W.A. Mozart during all of his Vienna career. Another was Salomon, the impresario/manager to Haydn during his visits to England. And so, you see, Yanni, there is lots of evidence if G. Cocchi was associated in a major way, musically, with Haydn and Mozart's careers he too was part of this same network of patrons, publishers, composers who oversaw the manufacturing of their careers. This is surely easy for you to understand, isn't it ?

The fact that the Regent bowed to Josef Haydn is no more mysterious than the case of the Emperor Joseph 2nd, who allowed ordinary men of no rank whatsover to see him, daily, on virtually any issue. We have an account of the King of England waving to the Mozart family in London as he drove past them in a park. Does that mean anything ?

Cocchi was part of the same network as Voltaire, Rousseau, Grimm, Gluck, Casanova, and literally hundreds of others including the Encyclopaedists in Paris and so many others it was, beyond reasonable doubt, an entire network, which, culturally, included the musical careers of both Josef Haydn and W.A. Mozart.

Far from being 'desperate' I am very relaxed. 'Haydn's' opera 'Armida' is based on a still earlier opera of G. Sarti. So says the evidence, at least. An opera of Sarti which had been premiered in Venice only a year or two earlier and which, in 1783, this very same Sarti brought personally to J. Haydn at Esterhazy. When it became a 'Haydn' opera. The same Haydn stopped 'composing' operas according to his own correspondence in 1786.

Do you believe the composer G. Sarti was also Cocchi ?

You see, I am trying very hard to see what you actually believe. Since, according to you Haydn's career was possible with the assistance of G. Cocchi although the shortage of facts to support this are missing. So far.

Regards

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by yanni

Engaging the same old slander on Cocchi "author of all music" shows how desperate you are, Robert.

I never wrote so, in fact I have repeatedly denied it, explaining otherwise and in detail, so, unless you can support your re claim quoting specific posts of mine, kindly proceed to a next thread at your earliest and never mind about the Regent bowing to Haydn, patronised by van Swieten perhaps.

---

Giuseppe Sarti (1729-1802)
Orchestral Interlude
From Act 2
Opera ‘Enea nel Lazio’ (Premiered St Petersburg, Russia, 1799)

Sarti’s graceful and simple lines are the main feature of his music. His operas become more and more simple in content. This comes from one of his last.

http://www.mediafire.com/?hy0hqzjvykz

(This is the same Sarti whose music features in the banquet scene of ‘Mozart’s’ ‘Don Giovanni’ (from his earlier opera 'Fra i due litiganti il terzo gode'). He played a much bigger role in the operatic career of Mozart than is generally supposed).

Where is the specific quote requested in my previous post?

Sarti's sole source is "Grove", who serve and maintain the "scholarly pile" just like you are.

Get lost in "it", slanderer.

Other readers of this thread may be interested to know that "Sarti" , just like "Haydn" and "Gluck" and countless others, was definitely another alias of Cocchi (primogenitor of the "pile" himself -thru his pennames as an author-philosophe-artist-art critic, his "covers" as France's chief secret agent and his Confessions or Memoirs as "Rousseau" and "Casanova" ).

Sarti's "limited" biography and travel data as well as 1791-1793 London performances (while the Regent's guest "Haydn" was there) such as Cocchi's Le Nozze di Dorina and "Gluck's" Iphigenia in Aulis (staged in London before "Haydn's" departure for Bonn in 1793, even though his Iphigenie in Tauris was previously banned by royal order in 1791. The King and the Regent had a minor disagreement at the time re the former's ability to rule and the latter's support by freemasons) are sufficient evidence to the fact and so is "Sarti's" influence on Mozart (Mozart himself "manufactured" -ie tutored-by Cocchi along with Beethoven and Goethe).

And 1791-1793 was definitely an important period for our global theater's history.

This 'alias' of Cocchi, Giuseppe Sarti, wrote some of the finest, most eloquent stage music of the late 18th century. Close to 30 operas. And really, it's pointless arguing. You believe Cocchi, Gluck, Myslivececk, now Sarti, and many others were the same man. If you cannot give us your timeline you may, one day, give us a list of his aliases. I wish you every success with your ideas. Here is a small fragment of his music. He was a massively talented composer and one you should hear.

Giuseppe Sarti (1729-1802)
Orchestral Introduction to Act 2
Opera ‘Enea nel Lazio’ (Premiered in St Petersburg, Russia, 1799)

http://www.mediafire.com/?gmqwjtzddjj

Regards

Yanni,

I'll finish here. An aria from the same opera -

Giuseppe Sarti
Aria
Act 2/14
Opera ‘Enea nel Lazio’

http://www.mediafire.com/?jwmufozzygy

Regards

My sympathies and apologies to all true students of music and/or history for their hours spent in vane attempting to solve 18th century puzzles by using available, well coordinated but poorly supported, relative groveling encyclopedic garbage, a true labyrinth today.

A rare source linking 18th cent music to corresponding historical developments is http://www.musicandhistory.com/pdf/1791-1800.pdf the authors of which would certainly benefit by including in their database many references to music included in my research on Gioachino Cocchi (such as for instance "van Swieten's" Paris presence and theatrical performances with Mme D'Epinay and her "circle", ie Cocchi- as "Rousseau", "Grimm", "Magnanville", "Dupin de Franceuil", "von Gleichen" etc -that are not included, and many others as well) and his aliases, keeping always in mind that not only did he lie about them and their whereabouts but is also taken as a "source" by his globalist followers.

Correcting this over two centuries old-and still continuing- fabrication is not the job of one person I am afraid, but calling things by their name is.

While Paris was in flames and "the people" decapitated the royal couple, "Haydn-Philidor" (physically present) and "Gluck-Sarti-Dussek"(their works) Cocchi was in London*, a guest of the Regent.

But who am I to judge him, his unique character, talent, intelligence and the use he made thereof? He changed the world indeed, for better or worst is anybody's guess: Nobody alive today was there when it all happened.....

.....and I was born with a bias against classical music!

*He crossed the channel, at least once, shortly before or after the storming of Bastille 14th July, 1790 to introduce Napoleon to his circle in Paris partying afterwards at Mme De Stael's. As "abbe Raynal"!

Yanni,

Would you provide (or direct me to a link of) a list of all known aliases of Cocchi? How many aliases did he have? I ask this in all sincerity.

Le comte de Saint Germain is said to have used some 1000 aliases but there has never been a re list online, his few acknowledged aliases of no significance.

When I find the energy to reread my research and make a list, I'll post it here.

Cheers.

There may be a faster solution. Yanni can list the composers, diplomats and philosophers associated with Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven who were NOT G.Cocchi. :wink5: That list will surely be far smaller. Cocchi will then be credited with writing several thousand operas, symphonies, sonatas, books on philosophy and countless other acts of diplomacy. His statue would dwarf that of Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven etc. on Easter Island and it would literally tower over the pagan landscape. The tourist industry would love the idea of discovering a giant new and till now undiscovered planet in the musical, diplomatic and philosophical firmament.

But that's precisely the problem we wish to avoid ! Unless we are inhabitants of Babylon, ancient Greece, Sumeria or Easter Island.

:leaving:

Don't you think '1,000 aliases' is, well, a slight exaggeration ?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by yanni

Le comte de Saint Germain is said to have used some 1000 aliases but there has never been a re list online, his few acknowledged aliases of no significance.

When I find the energy to reread my research and make a list, I'll post it here.

Cheers.

---

How many Niessens and Rossinis do you now count, count?

Re "Rossini the first": Please give my regards and esteem to your partner in manufacturing, "scholar" Trombetta, for his ancestor Giuseppe (husband of Mattei) who, as alleged comanager with his wife (acc to Burney)of the King's Theater,first brought Cocchi to London in 1757 (The Quarterly Musical Magazine and Review (5), by Richard MacKenzie Bacon, 1823).

According to Paul Brenac however, Cocchi himself was the manager of said Theater: ....part pour l'Angleterre en 1757 et dirige le King's Theatre jusqu'en 1762.

...and Giuseppe "husband of Mattei" was of "unknown background" and "Gluck's" Mme Mingotti (the v.d. transmitter perhaps of 1747?) was nearby at the time(Fashionable acts: opera and elite culture in London, 1780-1880 by Jennifer Hall-Witt*, 2007- Appendix C)

...and Columba Mattei, a mere opera singer, was lodging with the "London Bach"** for a while-ie "Baron Bagge" ie "Koch" (JC Bach's Creativity Pattern (Gardner-style))...

...as she did shortly before...

...Columba resided in Milan, 1754 with another "Giuseppe", Ferdinando Brivio, who....was reimbursed for lodging Leonardo Leo (1740), the choreographer François Sauveterre (1748) and the prima donnas A. Conti (1753) and Columba Mattei (1754) at his residence in Milan. No known documents, however, verify his death in 1758, and no evidence has been found to link unequivocally some of the instrumental music published at Paris and London (1730–63) under the name Brivio with Giuseppe Ferdinando.

...and guess whom Brivio's works leads to....

A small world, a big pile, surely...you guessed it (and you and cousin Trombetta both are over your heads in "it"!)

You have been great fun, Bobby, now run along, little Mozart is waiting and....caveat emptor.

:banana:



* " . . . scrupulously researched, sharply focused. . . [an] admirable piece of scholarship.”—Times Literary Supplement... and yet, following the trend, she as well buries "Koch" completely.

**J.C.Bach, Mozart's, Wendling's and Gallini's "Bach" who moves to London in 1762, stays there until death, his fragile health suddenly declining in 1781 ("JC Bach’s Creativity Pattern, Howard Gardner’s Approach to Creativity Analysis": Indeed that's when the "pile's" creation started and it's still analysed by professionals!:biggrinjester:)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Musicology

Don't you think '1,000 aliases' is, well, a slight exaggeration ?

---

So, a simple answer is again not given to the question. 'Do you think the 1,000 aliases is a slight exaggeration' ?

Yes or No, Yanni ?

Yanni,

As for the rest of your last post reference Cocchi/Trombetta/Kings Theatre etc. I made a point of studying this subject long, long before our correspondence ever began. Your posts do the opposite of what you suppose. They lack any appreciation of the context of those times, or of the input of dozens, even hundreds of different people.

And since I know Cocchi was part of an organisation much bigger than himself I have the advantage of being able to show it, with powerful proofs we have never discussed and you have never been interested in.

Why not study the background to Maestro Gallini, manager of King's Theatre, for example, and numerous other stooges of the 'system' to which Cocchi undoubtedly belonged ? The threads of which all lead back to Venice, to the Jesuit counter-reformation, to the formation of the cultural 'counter-reformation', and the role within that huge movement of Cocchi and dozens of others. Seen in this context you will even come to appreciate lives other than G. Cocchi.

Thank you for your kind comments on me consulting standard works. But really, I am as critical of them as 'The Manufacture of Mozart' suggests.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scT5a...eature=related

Regards

A "simple answer" depends on the total number of Cocchi's aliases you, Trombetta and the rest of the keepers have hidden in your "pile", doesn't it?

I have just pulled out another couple or two in previous and you didn't feel a thing, that's "how many"!.

:banana:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Musicology

So, a simple answer is again not given to the question. 'Do you think the 1,000 aliases is a slight exaggeration' ?

Yes or No, Yanni ?

---

Why not thousands upon thousands, count Bob?

Its your (and Trombetta's) pile to keep afterall, you may do whatever you like with it, with permission from your masters ofcourse.

Just keep you nose above the surface and hold your mouth shut if you can.

...and bear in mind while counting that "The puzzle of Beethoven's Kochs!" lists as #17 among 343000 google search results for "Beethoven+Koch"

Again my regards to you, my modest distant cousin Trombetta-Koch and poor Niessen-Mozart*!

*In memory of Heinrich Henkel(born 1822), pianist, owner of many Mozart manuscripts, first to claim that Mozart and Niessen shared -not just the same wife but-the same handwriting.

:wave:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Musicology

Yanni,

As for the rest of your last post reference Cocchi/Trombetta/Kings Theatre etc. I made a point of studying this subject long, long before our correspondence ever began. Your posts do the opposite of what you suppose. They lack any appreciation of the context of those times, or of the input of dozens, even hundreds of different people.

And since I know Cocchi was part of an organisation much bigger than himself I have the advantage of being able to show it, with powerful proofs we have never discussed and you have never been interested in.

Why not study the background to Maestro Gallini, manager of King's Theatre, for example, and numerous other stooges of the 'system' to which Cocchi undoubtedly belonged ? The threads of which all lead back to Venice, to the Jesuit counter-reformation, to the formation of the cultural 'counter-reformation', and the role within that huge movement of Cocchi and dozens of others. Seen in this context you will even come to appreciate lives other than G. Cocchi.

Thank you for your kind comments on me consulting standard works. But really, I am as critical of them as 'The Manufacture of Mozart' suggests.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scT5a...eature=related

Regards

---

And how many references are there to Beethoven/Mozart ?
Or Haydn/Mozart ?

I think this subject of Beethoven/Cocchi needs to be completely re-examined by you. But maybe you are the person who can finally do it.

Yanni, you were not born with an aversion to music. It may have been acquired. Anyway regards.

J.S. Bach
Concerto BWV 1058/2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUGxK...eature=related

Let be of my aversions and tell your italian "Koch" friend to blow her trumpet on Cocchi's family.

Antonio Cocchi was married twice and had children from both marrriages, details exist but are off limits.

Otherwise there is nothing more to say on Cocchi's relations to Beethoven, Mozart and Goethe*, there were two or three "Koch" diplomats-musicians at the time and unless we know more details on all we'll be only guessing (or I'll have to spend another couple of years -or days-with my timeline).

Regards.

*For Goethe's relations to "Haydn" and "Von Gleichen" a separate puzzle is really required. Suffices here to say that the two in quotes were "very closely" related, almost identical. Goethe met "them" in 1810, February, ie shortly after Haydn "died"-ceremoniously-in Vienna . Eversince 1777 Goethe met "Grimm" as well: Ich fühlt’s so inniglich daß ich dem Manne nichts zu sagen hatte, der von Petersburg nach Paris geht. But perhaps Grimm-Goethe is another puzzle....

Having practically solved the puzzle myself with regard to the specific Cocchi aliases (Waldstein, Oppersdorf , F.J.Haydn etc) who guided Beethoven to his “Rise to fame. 1792-1805”, Vienna, I’ll now reduce and redefine it to focus merely on Beethoven’s earlier Bonn music and theatre tuition years as follows:

Beethoven “authorities” believe that certain individuals (in bold below), among others, were essential in Beethoven’s “manufacture” ( to honour british finess) for the period 1783-1792:

…. Großmann selbst blieb in Frankfurt; seine Frau reiste am 12. Oktober(1783) nach Bonn und übernahm dort die Direktion. Wir werden später sehen, daß der Knabe Ludwig van Beethoven oft am Klavier in den Proben dieser Gesellschaft, möglicherweise auch bei den Aufführungen, verwendet wurde. Aus diesem Grunde mögen auch die Namen derer, unter welchen er sich in dieser Weise bewegte und tätig war, soweit es möglich ist, aus dem langen Verzeichnisse der Großmannschen Gesellschaft im Theaterkalender für 1784 ausgesondert und hier verzeichnet werden.

Trans: ….Grossman himself stayed in Frankfurt; his wife travelled on October 12th (1783) to Bonn and took over the direction there. We’ll examine later how youngster Beethoven was employed, often at the piano during the rehearsals of this theater company and also, eventually during performances as well. For this reason we desire to name those under which he acted and was busy as above, as much as possible, from the long archives of the Grossmann company extracted from the theater calender of 1784 and here (below) noted.

Grossman (theater company general manager)

Musikdirektor: C. G. Ne ese. (Chistoph Gottlieb Neefe)

Mad. Cassini, gemeine, zänkische und Bauernweiber.(actress)

Mad. J.M. Neefe, geb. Zink, Mütter im Trauer-, Luft- und Singspiel.(actress)

Cassini, Bühnendirector, Gerichtsdiener, Hülfsrollen (stage manager, assist actor)


Tentative puzzle solvers are asked to find which of the above, if any, is a “Koch” and, if so, his or her real life identity and, if possible, his or her relation to Babette Koch-Belderbusch.

Puzzle awards for non Koch participants same as before. Kochs will now receive half of the previous amount, ie EUR 250.

References to guide the inexperienced few:
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histoire_de_l%27Oise)
http://www.beethoven-haus-bonn.de/si...neefe_engl.pdf
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles...de_Belderbusch
http://www.zeno.org/Musik/M/Thayer,+...ationaltheater
http://www.all-about-beethoven.com/beethovenrise.html

Validity: Seven days as from now.

Enjoy!:smilielol5:


Seasons greetings to all.

Yanni,

I have the answer - it's quite wonderful too - and who will say it is not ?

Adagio e piano siempre

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dRoKK...eature=related

The problem and the resolution -

Larghetto

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pm0eD...eature=related

And -

Siciliano

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flKa8...eature=related

//

Good company for musicologists in distress on their via dolorosa, heh-heh!

Best wishes to you Robert.

And for those who are in no distress at all.

Best wishes to you Yanni.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by yanni

Good company for musicologists in distress on their via dolorosa, heh-heh!

Best wishes to you Robert.

---

The Cassinis were hugenots and with ties to british academics long before the revolution, Robert.

"Johann Georg Hamann", Goethe's tutor in philosophy* and possibly the lute, was "lutheran pietist" according to Wikipedia. Imo he was a naturalist at heart, much like "Rousseau". Like him, he as well....

...is the man who infected his century with his spirit and completely changed it. That awakening of the inner man around 1760 which found its artistic expression in classic-romantic culture arose from Hamann . The enigmatic power which this rare man radiated forth into his entire age is among the insoluble secrets of the history of human thought and spirit.
(J.Nadler, † 14. Januar 1963 in Wien. Notice how he distinguishes -and thus separates-H's spirit from the physical man and his identity.)

"Philidor" played a lot of chess (all over, he even taught Frederic "Grosse" chess, at the time of "Koch" theater establishment in Dresden, while Voltaire, "Collini" and Cocceji and his(their) "Barberina" were there to.Neefe was very close to this Koch theater man from his childhood, he was thus propably a lutheran pietist as well.)

As for "Grossman", I have no idea what his faith was, really.

Now concentrate on the reduced puzzle please, or else I'll start with Mozart's&Beethoven's "Prince Lichnowsky" (Lychnos=oil lamp in grk as all occultists know."Lichnos" differs however) of 1789-1809.

* Do read: "Johann Georg Hamann's relational metacriticism" by Gwen Griffith Dickson. Excellent work. Surpisingly, another Henkel, possibly a naturalist-pietist, first published Hamann's correspondence.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Musicology

And for those who are in no distress at all.

Best wishes to you Yanni.

---

Grossmann was another 'stooge' of the occultist/Jacobin takeover of the musical culture of the 'Enlightenment'. Near the end of his life he was arrested in Germany for praising the brutal regime of the tyrant Robespierre in Paris. The same Grossmann who, from 1783, was manager of the touring theatre group that left employment with the Hofkapelle in Bonn and toured theatres with singers and actors all across Germany. Including the 1785 premiere (at Frankfurt) of 'Le Nozze di Figaro' which Mozart research seems to have forgotten about. (A year before Mozart is said to have composed it). LOL !

Here is the Frankfurt 'Figaro' Playbill of that year. (1785). With the name of the production manager, the same Herr Grossmann etc. But don't tell this to supporters of W.A. Mozart, will you ? LOL !!

http://www.mediafire.com/?mizhcymjyzj

Please provide references (such as a serious biography* for instance) that Grossmann was arrested in Germany for praising the brutal regime of the tyrant Robespierre in Paris.

...and also advise exact date of the Frankfurt April 85 premiere and if Grossmann himself was there(as he could well be acc to my timeline) or someone else directed his company as the playbill's photo does not load clearly on my screen to read.

For me the questionmark now is not on Grossmann anymore but Beaumarchais himself.

I'll then publish my 1785 relative timeline.

Thanks.

* As compared to: http://de.wikisource.org/wiki/ADB:Gr...edrich_Wilhelm (by Joseph Kürschner. No "arrest" mentioned nevertheless). Other "sources" claim his first name was Helmut.



-

Yanni,

The premiere (at Frankfurt) of ‘Figaro’ was on Monday 11th April 1785 with the Grossmann group (on tour at the time). Fully 1 year before the Vienna premiere of ‘Mozart’s’ opera ‘Le Nozze di Figaro’. (I have copies of the Frankfurt newspapers in the days leading up to that event which confirm Grossmann's arrival in that city).

Grove says -

He also translated Rousseau's Pygmalion and adapted Shakespeare plays. His volume of Singspiele nach ausländischen Mustern für die deutsche Bühne (Frankfurt, 1783) included works that enjoyed considerable popularity in their day; Adelheid von Veltheim, set by Joseph Grätz and later Neefe (who became musical director of the company in 1779) was very successful for a number of years, and Nicht mehr als sechs Schüsseln (Bonn, 1780) was an influential early example of domestic comedy. Was vermag ein Mädchen nicht?, a Singspiel set by Neefe in 1789, was also popular. He was on close terms with Lessing and Schiller (of whose Fiesko he gave the first performance), and enjoyed a friendly relationship with Goethe's mother. In 1788, the year after his company had given Mozart's Die Entführung at Hanover under B.A. Weber, he mounted one of the earliest productions of Le nozze di Figaro at Lübeck and Frankfurt. Don Giovanni was also in his company's repertory. F.X. Gerl was a member of the company in 1786, and the famous actor K.W.F. Unzelmann was one of the star attractions. Until the disastrous production in Hanover of his last play, Grossmann had enjoyed high regard wherever he performed, though some contemporaries mentioned his restless and sometimes difficult temperament.

//

Grossmann (1746-96) was an Illuminati member (as was Neefe, Simrock and others at Bonn) who was briefly arrested in Hanover during his last tour there. He died shortly afterwards.

//

Reading material includes -

C.H. Schmid: Chronologie des deutschen Theaters (Leipzig, 1775); ed. P. Legband (Berlin, 1902)
K. Goedeke and others: Grundriss zur Geschichte der deutschen Dichtung, iv/1 (Dresden, 2/1891), 254
J. Wolter: Gustav Friedrich Wilhelm Grossmann: ein Beitrag zur deutschen Litteratur- und Theatergeschichte des 18. Jahrhunderts (Cologne, 1901)
E. Pies: Prinzipale: zur Genealogie des deutschsprachigen Berufstheaters vom 17. bis 19. Jahrhundert (Ratingen, 1973), 145–7
T.A. Bauman: Music and Drama in Germany: a Traveling Company and its Repertory, 1767–1781 (diss., U. of California, Berkeley, 1977)
T. Bauman: North German Opera in the Age of Goethe (Cambridge UP, 1985)

//

And below is a picture of the Comediehaus theatre in Frankfurt am Main (demolished in 1902) -

//

Hanover was also the place where Baron Knigge (Illuminatist and stooge of the British Empire, as was his father before him) lived. And the German text of 'Figaro' (which we find on the alleged and bogus 'autograph' of that score) is attributed to Knigge himself (and/or his young daughter).

//

Regards

Also, the 1901 publication -

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=B...ed=0CAkQ6AEwAA

And here is some Springtime for you Yanni - from another planet - Bach !! - and greetings from a sunny London !!!!!

Regards

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ic2S3...eature=related

I am adding more data (on music, "Cassini" and "occultism") in my timeline, Robert, and will then smooth it out and present it here, covering 1783-1786, a very important period, trying in parallel to distinguish who is who between aliases and real people, a formidable task.

It will take a few more days.

Best regards.

Hi there Yanni,

You are certainly right about the period 1783-6. It's massively important.

Oh, before I forget, a friend of mine has a Greek friend who arrived yesterday in London. I'm due to meet both of them tomorrow. This Greek man writes on aspects of European history also.

Regards

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by yanni

I am adding more data (on music, "Cassini" and "occultism") in my timeline, Robert, and will then smooth it out and present it here, covering 1783-1786, a very important period, trying in parallel to distinguish who is who between aliases and real people, a formidable task.

It will take a few more days.

Best regards.

---

The % number of history researchers to the overall population is proportional to the unemployment rate, not just in Greece.

The most important period concerning Modern Greece (created post 1821) dates back to the 1750's and has never been really "researched thru".

Regards.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Musicology

Hi there Yanni,

You are certainly right about the period 1783-6. It's massively important.

Oh, before I forget, a friend of mine has a Greek friend who arrived yesterday in London. I'm due to meet both of them tomorrow. This Greek man writes on aspects of European history also.

Regards

---

Yes, that is more or less what the Greek man says. The more history is studied, the better. And the period back to the 1750's may well be studied in some detail. This is all good news.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by yanni

The % number of history researchers to the overall population is proportional to the unemployment rate, not just in Greece.

The most important period concerning Modern Greece (created post 1821) dates back to the 1750's and has never been really "researched thru".

Regards.

---

Copy from "Easter Bach" relevant to pre 1750's history of music:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

JSBach's life and career were very much determined by Cocceji-Koch family.

Acc to Wikipedia Bach's health was in decline in 1749 and he died on 28 July 1750 at the age of 65.

Here is a short selection for you to put in your timeline (and add to http://musicandhistory.com who avoid pre 1752 musical events) and drasticaly alter, among others, your JSBach "perspective" :



1741-1750 TIMELINE

1741.15. 03. Der Wirkliche Geheime Etats- und Kriegsminister, Samuel Freiherr von Cocceji, trifft, aus Breslau und Glogau kommend, wieder in Berlin ein.

Gluck- Artaserse (Artaxerxès), livret de Métastase, joué à Milan le 26 décembre 1741

Russia. Elizabeth crowned herself Empress in the Dormition Cathedral on April 25, 1742.

Gluck-Demetrio (2.5.1742 Venezia SS) [Cleonice]

Already in 1742 in Florence (Italy) Antonio Cocchi presented to the Earl of Richecourt a report on the Hospital of Santa Maria Nuova.

In 1742, most of Silesia was seized by King Frederick the Great of Prussia in the War of the Austrian Succession and subsequently made the Prussian Province of Silesia. King Frederick II of Prussia appointed Cocceji to lead the legal reorganization of annexed Silesia.The formal approval of Cocceji's proposals followed on March 26th, 1742. In this missive he was asked to prepare an instruction for the Vicar General and a patent notifying the Silesian officials of the change in Catholic conditions. Frederick trusted completely in Cocceji's ability, since he possessed " the necessary insight both into spiritual rights and into the tricks of the Papal clerics " and would thus be able to take whatever precautions were necessary.*

1742 bis 1745 studierte Grimm an der Universität Leipzig Jura, Literatur und Philosophie

1742–43. Voltaire is on a secret mission in Prussia rallying Frederick to the assistance of the French Army.

COCCHI, Antonio Celestino Del vitto pitagorico per uso della medicina Franc.Moücke Florence 1743

Gluck Demofoonte (6.1.1743 Milano RD)

May 1743 Rousseau begins the opera of the gallant Muses.

July. Rousseau leaves Paris for Venice as secretary of the French ambassador.

Gluck- Il Tigrane (26.9.1743 Crema)

Sept 1743. La Barberina is in Paris with Ludwig Cocceji(Als „Tänzerin Barberina“ hatte der Freiherr(Carl Ludwig Cocceji) sie im September 1743 in Paris kennengelernt und von dort auf Befehl des Königs nach Berlin.

Cocchi-Adelaide (carn.1743 Roma D)

Durazzo. Marchese (detto Conte) Giacomo Pier Francesco, Patrizio Genovese, ascritto al Libro d’Oro della Nobiltà il 13-XII-1743.

1744

Gluck.La Sofonisba (13?.1.1744 Milano RD) [Siface]

Barberina In 1744 she was hired by Frederick the Great of Prussia for an engagement in Berlin, but instead of honouring it she travelled with her lover, Lord Stuart Mackenzie, to Venice. The king then had her brought to Berlin by military guard wo sie am 8. Mai 1744 ihr Debüt an der Königliche Hofoper feierte, an das sich zahlreiche weitere Erfolge anreihten. Sie konnte in den Vertragsverhandlungen mit der Oper ihr jährliches Salär selbst bestimmen. Es betrug schließlich die für damalige Zeiten unglaubliche Summe von 7000 Reichsthaler im Jahr. Zurückzuführen könnte dies auf ein gemutmaßtes Verhältnis mit dem König selbst sein, das der Tänzerin neben zahlreicher anderen Liebschaften nachgesagt wurde. Die Karriere in Berlin endete schließlich 1749 abrupt, als sie einen Heiratsantrag auf offener Bühne annahm, den ihr Carl Ludwig von Cocceji,

Cocchi.L'Elisa (aut.1744 Napoli F)

Gluck. Ipermestra (21.11.1744 Venezia SGG)

Gluck. Poro (26.12.1744 Torino TR)

In 1745 Diderot became the editor of the Encyclopédie together with mathematician Jean Le Rond d'Alembert.

1745 —In January, Voltaire took up his abode in Versailles to superintend rehearsals, and in consideration of his labors at the fête, the king appointed him historiographer of France, on a yearly salary of 2,000 francs, and promised him the next vacant chair in the Academy. Voltaire considered this fair remuneration for a year of much toil in matters of the court. During these turbulent times, when a skilful pen was needed he was called upon. He was at this time in high favor with the king; Madame de Pompadour and many other influential persons also favored his aspirations. Voltaire dedicated “Mahomet” to the Pope, and sent a copy and a letter to him, out of which grew an interesting correspondence, the publication of which proclaimed his good standing with the head of the Church.

Gluck. Ippolito (31.1.1745 Milano RD) [Fedra]

Cocchi. L'Irene (spr.1745 Napoli F)

1745. Birth of Savalette de Lange

Referring to the year 1745, Rousseau said in his Confessions:I had also become intimate with the abbé de Condillac, who, like myself, cut no figure in the literary world, but who was born to be what he has become to-day.

Francis, Holy Roman Emperor,King of the Romans Reign 13 September 1745-18August 1765 Coronation 4 October 1745, Frankfurt
Gluck attended his coronation enroute from Milan to London together with Lobkowitz.

In 1745, at the invitation of Lord Middlesex, Gluck accompanied Prince Lobkowitz to England. On the way, they visited Paris where Gluck became acquainted with French opera and admired Rameau.

In London, where he had been asked to be house composer at the King’s Theatre Gluck gave two operas there and played two concerts on the musical glasses. He may also have met Handel, who is supposed to have said of the younger composer, “He knows no more of counterpoint than my cook.” Gluck’s London sojourn was short, as he was in Dresden by June 1747, composing operas for and possibly singing with a traveling opera troupe run by Pietro Mingotti

"The Pythagorean diet, of vegetables only, conducive to the preservation of health, and the cure of diseases" A discourse delivered at Florence, in the month of August, 1743, by Antonio Cocchi, ... Translated from the Italian.
Published 1745, printed for R. Dodsley; and sold by M. Cooper (London)

St Germain is released although previously accused for spying. Walpole says: He sings, plays on the violin wonderfully, composes, is mad, and not very sensible.
Walpole, Correspondence, Yale, v.26 (1954). Letter to Horace Mann, 9 Dec 1745, pp.20-21.

Gluck also performed operas in London during 1745-46, where he met Handel and the latter's music. Although Handel thought him to be a poor contrapuntist, they became friends. (After further travel-Dresden, Copenhagen, Naples, Prague-he settled in Vienna in 1752 as Konzertmeister of the Prince of Saxe-Hildburghausen's orchestra, then as Kapellmeister.

1746
Gluck- La Caduta de' Giganti représenté au Théâtre de Haymarket à Londres le 7 janvier 1746

Gluck- Artamene (4.3.1746 OS London H) Artamene, opéra en 3 actes, livret de l'abbé Vanneschi, représenté au Théâtre de Haymarket à Londres le 4 mars 1746

March 28, 1746. One only, first and last (including adjacent years) reference to “german” Gluck (music playing with water filled glasses) (http://ichriss.ccarh.org/HRD/1746.htm)

Voltaire He was elected to the Academy in 1746.

As he confesses, Rousseau: 1746 (till 1750)worked for Dupin de Franceuil family. (Monsieur Dupin was a receiver general of finances). Rousseau formed new musical projects, and he was introduced by degrees to people ofrank and influence, among them Madame d’Epinay (q.v.), to whom in 1747 he was introduced by her lover M. de Francueil

Until the publication of Condillac’s first book in 1746, his brother will doubtless have seemed his mentor. However, the abbé de Mably separated himself increasingly from the philosophes and moved out to Marly, while Condillac with his further philosophical publications was in close contact with Diderot and d’Alembert.

Cocchi-L'ipocondriaco risanato (1746 Roma V),Cocchi- Bajazette (1746 Roma D) cover page: He signs as Gioachino Rossini, Cocchi-I due fratelli beffati (win.1746 Napoli N)

1747

Voltaire 1747 “The Prodigal,” before the king. was a striking success, but because of a poem to Madame de Pompadour “an indiscreet allusion to her relations with the king”, the king was induced to sign an order for his exile. This was followed by his hurried flight from court. At midnight, Voltaire, returning to his house in Fontainebleau, ordered the horses hitched to the carriage, and before daybreak left for Paris. He took refuge with the duchess du Maine in Sceaux.

January 10th, 1747, Cocceji and his Six set out for Pommern. On a longish Enterprise, in that Province and the others

March 1747 Prince Friedrich von Sachsen Gotha with his governor Thun frequents Gaspard Fritz in Geneva who dedicates a work to him in 1755.

Cocchi.La maestra (spr.1747 Napoli N) [La scaltra governatrice]
Gluck. Le nozze d'Ercole e d'Ebe (29.6.1747 Pillnitz)

Baron Bagge? Nulla di preciso conosciamo, invece, sulla sua iniziazione alla massoneria (che potrebbe essere avvenuta a Berlino prima del 1747, quando il Bagge* frequentò Federico II e da questi ricevette il titolo di ciambellano) (Samuel Cocceji was Großkanzler (grand chancellor) of Prussia in 1747).

1747 death of Henri Cochin, one of the most famous lawyers of the Parlement de Paris, praised by Voltaire for his progressive ideas. H.Cochin is the father of Augustin Henry Cochin.

1747 La Correspondance littéraire, philosophique et critique Directeur de la rédaction Melchior Grimm

1747 Philidor visits England under the auspices of Sir Janssen, strongest English player. He also defeats Stamma in a match at Slaughter's in London. Ten games.

1747 dall’Egitto e da Malta, attraverso l’opera iniziatica di illustri personaggi, tra i quali spicca l’opera di Raimondo di Sangro, Principe di San Severo, confluisce a Napoli una intensa attività di ricerca e di studio della Scienza Muratoria di Tradizione egizia.http://www.memphismisraim.it/id28.htm

About 12th Dec 47 C.L Cocceji is with Barberina in Berlin listening to the music of Carl Philip Emmanuel Bach-Bagge (The correspondence of Christian Gottfried Krause: a music lover in the age ... by Darrell Berg)

December 1747, Rouseau back in Paris

After Johanna Elisabeth was expelled from Russia in 1747, Betskoy comes to Paris … where he spent the following 15 years in commerce with the French Encyclopédistes and Jean-Jacques Rousseau.

1748. Montesquieu, The Spirit of the Laws.

Blason: Cochin - Claude-Denis, 1748. (the botanist)- D’azur, au chevron d’or, accompagné an chef de deux coqs d’or et en pointe d’une tour d’argent.
One of Paris most famous gardens by Claude Denis Cochin, today Le Jardin des Plantes). Georges Leclerc comte de Buffon, Intendant du Jardin du Roi, de l’Académie Françoise, et de l’Académie royale des Science.

Cocchi: Merope (20.1.1748 Napoli SC)

A.E.Waite: At the French court St Germain was seen about 1748

In 1748 Condillac had published anonymously the dissertation Les monades, with which he won a prize awarded by the Academy of Berlin.

Die schöne und intelligente Tänzerin hatte nicht wenige Verehrer, was den König so erzürnte, dass er der Barberina 1748 als „perfide und verführerische Kreatur“ seine Gunst entzog. Sie floh nach England, kam aber bald zurück und heiratete 1749 Carl Ludwig von Cocceji.

Rousseau moves to La Chevrette spring 1748 and is asked to take part in his “L’Engagement téméraire (OC I, p. 346 et 1423)” given six months to prepare himself for τhε role, a role he never gets. The performance takes place 14th September 1748

1748 Sommer: Gottfried Heinrich Koch und andere wichtige Schauspieler verlassen die Neubersche Gesellschaft und gehen nach Wien an das Theater am Kärtnertor.

La Semiramide riconosciuta (14.5.1748 Wien B) Gluck's first opera for Vienna. The day before had seen the celebration of the young Empress Maria Theresa’s birthday

In 1748,Gluck…Aachen, Semiramide riconosciuta , on a booklet of Métastase.

Philidor In 1748, at Aachen, he wrote his L’analyze des échecs (later revised as Analyse du jeu des échecs). With the help of the Duke of Cumberland, whom he met at Eindhoven, the book was published in London (1749);

Mitte 1748 unternahm Grimm mit seinem Schüler Gottlob Ludwig von Schönberg eine Reise nach Paris.

treaty of Aix-la-Chapelle (October 18, 1748).

1749
Grimm, der sich seit 1749 in Paris befand und von Deutschland Kenntniß und Neigung für die italiänische Musik mitgebracht hatte.By Jahreswechsel 1748/49 wechselte Grimm in den Haushalt des Herzogs Friedrich von Sachsen-Gotha und wurde dessen Vorleser. Später avancierte Grimm zum Sekretär des Grafen August Heinrich von Friesen.

Prince Friedrich of Sachsen Gotha becomes aquainted with Rousseau. Melchior Grimm is his tutor. (Confessions: ....deux Allemands attachés au prince: l’un, appelé M. Klupffell, homme de beaucoup d’esprit, était son chapelain, et devint ensuite son gouverneur, après avoir supplanté le baron; l’autre était un jeune homme, appelé M. Grimm, qui lui servait de lecteur en attendant qu’il trouvât.)

Rousseau apporte son soutien à Diderot, emprisonné à la suite de la Lettre sur les aveugles à l’usage de ceux qui voient en 1749.

Marie Fell: She sang on January 4, 1749, in the opera of Roland, before the Dauphine; ..... (about 40 years later buys the house of State Councillor Augustin Henry Cochin for the sum of 9325 livres)

Gluck. La contesa de' numi (9.4?.1749 København)

Cocchi: Farsetta in musica (1749 Roma V) ,La serva bacchettona (spr.1749 Napoli F), Siface (carn.1749 Napoli SC),Arminio (carn.1749 Roma A).

Barberina: She danced at the Berlin Court Opera until 1748, when she fell out of favour with the Prussian king over her love affair with Charles-Louis de Cocceji, son of the king's chancellor. In 1749 she married Cocceji secretly against his family's wishes, accompanying him to exile in Silesia

Voltaire: 1749 —Madame du Châtelet died under peculiar circumstances in August. Voltaire found solace in play-writing. He set up house in Paris, and invited his niece, Madame Denis, to manage for him, which she did for the remainder of his days, and thus at the age of fifty-six he had a suitable and becoming home in his native city, with an income of 74,000 francs a year, equal to about fifty thousand dollars to-day.

Durazzo Marchese (detto Conte) Giacomo Pier Francesco, Patrizio Genovese, Ministro Residente della Repubblica di Genova a Vienna dal 21-IX-1749

Koch. Oktober.Eröffnung einer neuen Bühne im großen Blumenberg.
Heinrich Gottfried Koch kehrt zurück und erhält das sächsisch-polnische Hof-Komödianten-Privileg.

Hennin débuta dans la carrière diplomatique en 1749 au dépôt des Affaires Etrangères à Paris sur la recommandation de Broglie
Pierre-Michel Hennin obtint le 18 novembre1749 de M. de Puisieulx, ministre des Affaires étrangères, (is employed at the Foreign Affairs)

Charles Nicholas Cochin NC:Les voyageurs partaient le 20 décembre 1749. Ils revenaient à la fin de septembre 1751.

Maupertuis, the French President of the Academy of Berlin, may have been influential in securing Condillac’s election to the Academy in 1749. Condillac wrote to him on Christmas Day 1749 to express his pleasure and gratitude at being elected to that body. Their correspondence corrects the mistaken later date of Condillac’s election given by Puchesse.In the letter Condillac said that it was a friend, M. d’Alembert, who had given him the news.

1750

In the same year (1750) in which Turgot traced an outline of historical Progress at the Sorbonne, Rousseau laid before the Academy of Dijon a theory of historical Regress. This Academy had offered a prize for the best essay on the question whether the revival of sciences and arts had contributed to the improvement of morals. The prize was awarded to Rousseau.

Cocchi: La Gismonda (spr.1750 Napoli F)

Voltaire left Paris June 15th, and reached, July 10th, Sans-Souci, near Potsdam, the country place of the king, seventeen miles from Berlin.

JSBACH....died on 28 July 1750 at the age of 65

August 25th, 1750 Collini is in Berlin with the Barberinas and Voltaire

Gluck. Ezio (carn.1750 Praha)

Cocchi. Siroe (carn.1750 Venezia SGG),

Voltaire is a guest of FredericII until 1753.

Voltaire is known to have used at least 178 separate pen names during his lifetime.

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*Nulla di preciso conosciamo, invece, sulla sua iniziazione alla massoneria (che potrebbe essere avvenuta a Berlino prima del 1747, quando il Bagge frequentò Federico II e da questi ricevette il titolo di ciambellano). Membro de "Les Neuf Soeurs" almeno sin dal 1778 (di conseguenza, egli potrebbe aver avuto parte, per quanto concerne gli apparati musicali nell'organizzazione delle due cerimonie in onore di Voltaire, l'una per l'iniziazione e l'altra commemorativa della scomparsa di quel grande), e nel 1783-84 figura come primo direttore dei concerti della loggia. Di fede luterana, morì a Parigi il 24 marzo 1791, avvelenato, si disse calunniosamente, dall'amante.
(Mirabeau jr death in 2nd April 1791)

If it's not all greek to you, enjoy!

Hi there Yanni,

I am due to meet this Greek visitor in about an hour from now in London so I will not write long.

This information on Bach etc. is interesting and I will discuss it as soon as I can.

I see no reference to Bach there.

(By the way it was not JC Bach who died in 1750 but J.S. Bach).

Anyway, it's all interesting, for sure. And I will reply as soon as I can.

Regards

Robert

Check my last post in "your" JSBach thread and do return here for your comments when recovered.

In the meantime I'll enjoy reading Alberto Basso's research, so relevant to mine!

Anyway:

Frederick II's Bagge is Mozart's Bagge ie "Carl Friedrich Ernst von Cocceji (1725–1780)" or "Charles-Ernest Ennal de Bagge (1722 - 1791)".

Hi there Yanni,

I got back from meeting the Greek friend of my friend. It was very interesting, for sure. He introduced me to a drink of 'colloidal silver water' ! Something I have heard of before but have never actually seen or tasted before. Used (so it seems) by those who are in to healthy foods etc. Tasted like distilled water.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...&ct=clnk&gl=uk

Alberto Basso's research is highly recommended by musicologists in Italy.

However, I have still not seen evidence of your description of Cocchi as a significant factor in the life and career of J.S. Bach. In fact, the evidence we have is of enemies of J.S. Bach operating from Leipzig University (which may well have included Cocchi). Again, the same is true of the circumstances behind Bach's 'Art of Fugue'. Where, once again, he was under severe criticism at Potsdam. So, yes, it's an interesting subject.

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=s...ed=0CCAQ6AEwAw


There are modern musicologists and editors of the music industry who are inventing all kinds of (fraternal) fictions about the history of music. I could name some, even in mainstream Bach research. But I will do this only if you have some evidence of J.S. Bach being influenced by Cocchi. That will be interesting, for sure.

Regards

Quote:

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Originally Posted by yanni

Check my last post in "your" JSBach thread and do return here for your comments when recovered.

In the meantime I'll enjoy reading Alberto Basso's research, so relevant to mine!

Anyway:

Frederick II's Bagge is Mozart's Bagge ie "Carl Friedrich Ernst von Cocceji (1725–1780)" or "Charles-Ernest Ennal de Bagge (1722 - 1791)".

---

My timeline may be an opportunity to address the sensitive subject of pre 1752 music history and provenance and also a reason to research the Cocceji-Cassini link more thoroughly, if truth is what "we" are after.

The family's political role in European -and not only-History has already been addressed by me elsewhere, so let's focus just on my timeline:

"I have still not seen evidence of your description of Cocchi as a significant factor in the life and career of J.S. Bach", you write:

With Samuel Cocceji being what he was in Prussia (eversince 1730's) and his specific role in "Silesia" as from 1742 (and much earlier-their relations to the polish royal family is a story yet to be written btw) this is really a surprising answer in view of JSBach's own life story and absolute dependence, like everybody else's, on Prussia's allmighty chiefchancellor.

I don't believe Gioachino Cocchi ever studied in Leipzig btw: His "entrance" as "Carl Ludwig Cocceji" was with the approval of Frederick II (whose chamberlain, military adjutant and diplomatic representative later was Carl-Ernst von Cocceji) and he was already a formed composer at the time he associated with La Barberina (1743-4), shortly before London.

Well, no matter, at least I was able to solve the puzzle of Mozart's "Bagge" (and remove him, "Bricaire de La Dixmerie" and a few others from my my "Cocchi aliases" list).

Every cloud has a silver lining.

Regards.