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Originally Posted by Paulclem
I do not think what is offered within the poem is enough to come to any conclusions about the "house" and just what it is meant to suggest or represent. I could not say from what is offered about it, if it is truly meant to be empty, or populated, we only are given a glimpse of it as the ship comes to port again, but beyond that really nothing is told of it. We could not even really say if it is meant to be heaven.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulclem
I'm afraid this will be going off the top of my head. I don' think this poem represents Lawrence's view of the after life, thoough it doesn't necessarily contradict it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
I'm not sure I've ever seen a bodily resurrection before in Lawrence, though it's quite possible. The key to Lawrence's notion of the metaphysical is the absence of will. The fall from paradise for Adam and Eve was an act of acquiring ego - self - and that meant will. So our earthly lives are plagued with the notion of egocentrality and exertion of our wills, and that is source of human conflict and wearing away of our lives. The processs onto death and beyond, and for lawrence process is the key to everything, is a process of losing our wills. The ideal, the paradisial promise, is a state of being completely atuned with the natural diety that runs through all. That state is a giving up of will and sacrificing our egos, our selves. Here perhpas it's a little contradictory. At times Lawrence conceptualizes it as a non ego existence, where we are absorbed into this soul. Other times Lawrnce conceptualizes it as containing a sense of identity but without a will. Even here in this poem, you can see the suicide thoughts of the bare bodkin section is an exertion of will. Suicide is a willful act. But in the tenth stanza, the soul has no will, just a state of peace. The symbol for Lawrence of our post physical life nature is that of a flower. A flower stands atuned in nature, living and bright and will-less. It has not central willful self only a state of existence.Quote:
X
The flood subsides, and the body, like a worn sea-shell
emerges strange and lovely.
And the little ship wings home, faltering and lapsing
on the pink flood,
and the frail soul steps out, into the house again
filling the heart with peace.
Swings the heart renewed with peace
even of oblivion.
Oh build your ship of death. Oh build it!
for you will need it.
For the voyage of oblivion awaits you.
Hope that made sense. It's hard to explain without examples, and I don't seem to have my thesison this new laptop, where I did go into this in a particular section.
That was a good poem. I really didn't expect the ending at all. When I first started reading I thought Lawrence was going to do either the tearful elegy thing or maybe the optimistic afterlife thing, but the poem goes in a much more mysterious direction. The first stanzas make it sound like oblivion equals death and the ship is what's permanent and can be carried beyond death--like Good Deeds in Everyman. The rebirth in the last stanzas, though, undercuts these easy connections. If the "oblivion" of this poem is death, then how can it recede? How can one resume their house after dying? The ship becomes similarly problematic. If the ship is about permanent things capable of being brought with the dying then why is the ship lost in darkness? This part of the poem faked me out--in a good way, of course. I'm glad it's not that simple.
That's true. It's interesting that you point to the last stanza as an example of will-less paradise, though. The oblivion of the middle stanzas seems much more will-less than the end. It's in the darkness that the we're told "our strength leaves us" and "we cannot steer." This seems more open and passive than when the speaker is talking about the house. The house is oddly reminiscent of where we were before. The poem says we enter it "again," our heart is "renewed," and "the whole thing starts again." If the speaker was willful before the "whole thing" then he's probably willful at the end when the process starts over at the house. It's only in the oblivion that the speaker sheds his or her volition, and that's only a temporary experience between two episodes of control and willfulness at each end of the poem. The poem seems to be about preparing for those recurring "voyages" into the oblivion when one loses control.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
http://www.lawrenceseastwood.co.uk/i...awstatuniv.jpg
I wonder if I can get one of these for my living room
Yeah, I think it's left rather unexplained. We know that we've been in the house before, but beyond that there's nothing specific mentioned about it. Whether it's heaven or not is hard to say. I tend to think not, but it wouldn't be outlandish to say so. To me, though, it's just part and parcel of the scheme built up in this poem that groups everything into either violent, turbulent images or comfortable, domestic ones. The later are associated with immediate, lived existence and the former have more to do with times of inactivity or passivity--like sleep, idleness, or maybe even death.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
Quote by Quark
hhahahaa....Quark, I think they must have a repro!Quote:
I wonder if I can get one of these for my living room
I will answer you and Virgil's posts tomorrow. You both seem to make a lot of sense to me.
A flower stands atuned in nature, living and bright and will-less. It has not central willful self only a state of existence.
This rang a bell with me from my past...long long past study of a couple of his novels. I think I remember it in his relations to the women in the novels.
I do not think what is offered within the poem is enough to come to any conclusions about the "house" and just what it is meant to suggest or represent. I could not say from what is offered about it, if it is truly meant to be empty, or populated, we only are given a glimpse of it as the ship comes to port again, but beyond that really nothing is told of it. We could not even really say if it is meant to be heaven.
I think you're probably right Dark Muse. I just wondered if anyone could enlighten me further.
The key to Lawrence's notion of the metaphysical is the absence of will.
This seems to be a theme in a number of poems grouped together in my edition. There is much less about the other end, but then the notion of mystery is not uncommon in Lawrence, and perhaps is a greater leap of faith than belief in an established set of beliefs.
I suppose a question is what were poems to Lawrence? Were they streams of thought that he pursued at a particular time, that he might discard or develop later? I was trying to see consistencies in his thought in the poems, but of course he wasnt confined to poetry with his writing.
Your posts make the discussion very interesting. Thanks all.
A flower stands atuned in nature, living and bright and will-less. It has not central willful self only a state of existence.
Not willing but just being. It sounds quite zen like. I wonder what he would have made of Haiku?
You're welcome. Thanks for the interest in Lawrence. As you can guess I've spent a good deal of time with him. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulclem
I would say yes to your question above. Lawrence wrote and re-wrote his fiction rather carefully and deliberately. It is not my impression that he did the say with his poems. To some degree they were improvisational. This particular poem is crafted. Like I said, this was the third version, and that's somewhat unusual for Lawrence for his poems.
I am coming in rather late in this discussion - but I just noticed that Janine had posted a snippet from a very short piece I published on Lawrence in Tuscia, the ETruscan area. So thank you -- The ship of death is indeed an Etruscan symbol, as it was in many ancient Mediterranean cultures. They were, after all, a master seagoing people, and tiny clay models of ships are among frequent tomb findings, and are also depicted in frescoes.
Interestingly, in the duomo of orvieto, an Etruscan town, there is a curious detail in one of the great apocalypse frescoes by Signorelli -- of a ship with ghostly rower (Charon) who is painted blue, just like the blue devils of the Etruscan frescoes in Tarquinia -- so the pictorial tradition of the ETruscan boat and rower somehow lived on and was transmitted to relatively recent times.
A wonderful book has been written on Etruscan religion, which corroborates some of Lawrence's own ideas expressed in ETruscan Places --
by a scholar, who like Lawrence, goes against the grain - Giovanni Feo. Unfortunately they have not been published in English and have not been officially recognized by the academe as worthy studies -- but read together with Lawrence's Italian poems, including The Ship of Death, and his Etruscan writings, they are very thought provoking.
On another note - I didn't see if it is listed here -- but the famous letter Lawrence wrote to Katherine Mansfield upon the death of her beloved brother Leslie -- echoes some of the images and moods of The Ship of Death.
Mansfield herself in her diaries occasionally used boat/ship imagery to describe her spiritual condition
Actually, I have also published a novel, The Etruscan ( Wynkin de Worde, Galway Ireland, 2004) which draws inspiration from Lawrence's exploration of the Etruscan area, and from his poem The ship of death.
Oh my gosh LLItaly, did I quote you...something here from your article? I hope you did not mind it. You thanked me so I guess I should say "you're welcome". I suppose quoting articles from the internet does promote the author in some positive way. Did you find this forum in that way? I just checked back a few pages; but didn't see the part of your article I quoted. Could you point out what post # that was?Quote:
Originally Posted by LLItaly
Let me emphasis this. You are never too late for a discussion on Lawrence! Lawrence is my main focus of study and has been for some years now (I have tons of books, digital images and articles); Virgil wrote his thesis on Lawrence: the aspect of 'Transfiguration' in his work (highly interesting). I just pre-ordered Lawrence's Mornings in Mexico - yeah! They finally reprinted it; about time! This is a good sign, I believe. I hope they reprint all his books.
I would love to discuss Lawrence with you any time. Feel free to befriend me (my profile page), so we can bore everyone with our Lawrence ravings! :lol: Also, I wanted to formally welcome you to this forum. I hope you stick around and enjoy some of our Lawrence discussions. We normally have a short story discussion going. We have a thread you might want to look into. We have discovered just how fine a short story author Lawrence is and we have discussed many of his storie, perhaps half to 3/4 so far; we hope to pick up again soon with more short storie discussions. We had formal discussions aslo on Women in Love, followed a little later by Son's and Lovers. If you run searches on these you will no doubt find them but many pages back. I should post in each some tidbit on Lawrence to bring the discussion threads back into the current lineup. In our discussion groups we have learned so much. It has been a joy for me and others as well I am sure.
Oh wow, I love getting this added information. I find this entirely fascinating. I am into detail work, being a visual artist myself; and I love any little bit I don't know, which relates to Lawrence's own observations. I read Etrucan Places and the other travel books and loved them!Quote:
Interestingly, in the duomo of orvieto, an Etruscan town, there is a curious detail in one of the great apocalypse frescoes by Signorelli -- of a ship with ghostly rower (Charon) who is painted blue, just like the blue devils of the Etruscan frescoes in Tarquinia -- so the pictorial tradition of the ETruscan boat and rower somehow lived on and was transmitted to relatively recent times.
I definitely want to look into that book. Thanks for pointing out the author to me. Unfortunately I can't read Italian but maybe it will be translated or I can find excerpts online until it is.Quote:
A wonderful book has been written on Etruscan religion, which corroborates some of Lawrence's own ideas expressed in ETruscan Places --
by a scholar, who like Lawrence, goes against the grain - Giovanni Feo. Unfortunately they have not been published in English and have not been officially recognized by the academe as worthy studies -- but read together with Lawrence's Italian poems, including The Ship of Death, and his Etruscan writings, they are very thought provoking.
Yes, Katherine Mansfield was such a great friend to Lawrence. I think they had similiar or overlapping thoughts on life and death. I would love to read this letter. I have volumes of the letters here and I also have one book of the Collected Letters. Do you know when this letter was written? If I have the date I can look it up. I am vitally interested.Quote:
On another note - I didn't see if it is listed here -- but the famous letter Lawrence wrote to Katherine Mansfield upon the death of her beloved brother Leslie -- echoes some of the images and moods of The Ship of Death.
Mansfield herself in her diaries occasionally used boat/ship imagery to describe her spiritual condition
Marvelous! I would like to look into into getting a copy. Where do you have this for sale? Is it on Amazon? I seem to gather many books from independent authors about Lawrence. Someone pointed out to me the Minoan Experience which is fascinating, even if just for the photos. It deals with the travels of Lawrence. I have only read parts of it so far (so much to read, so little time!) but it's very interesting and well written. I intend to read the entire book someday.Quote:
Actually, I have also published a novel, The Etruscan ( Wynkin de Worde, Galway Ireland, 2004) which draws inspiration from Lawrence's exploration of the Etruscan area, and from his poem The ship of death.
Welcome LL. Nice to have you on lit net and part of our Lawrence circle. I'll ave to look up that letter to Mansfield. It doesn't ring a bell. When was it written? Around 1918 or so?Quote:
Originally Posted by LLItaly
Like Janine, I too would love to discuss Larence with you.
Hello Virgil and Janine thank you for the warm welcome. I'll try to keep up when I can. Yes, Janine, I found the forum by running a search on google and it brought up a snippet of my short piece published by Poets& Writers On line- but clicking back through the posts I couldn't find it again. Will check later more thoroughly for the post.
Lawrence's letter to KM was written in Dec. 1915 ( I have also published a novel about KM called Katherine's Wish, but dealing with the last phase of her life).
In his letter to her he writes " Do not be sad. It is one life which is passing away from us, one I is dying but there is another coming into being, which is the happy, creative you. I knew you would have to die with your brother, you also, go down into death and be extinguished. But for us there is a rising from the grave, there is a resurrection and a clean life to begin from the start, new, happy."
.................................................. ...........................................
Janine, I am very keen to know what this Minoan experience book is you mentioned in your post. Please tell me more ( I have just returned from a yearly visit to Crete)
I'd be honored Janine if you'd read my book. It is available on Amazon.com and also from Barnes and Nobles. It's also in some libraries, too.
There's a little about the book
available on my site www.theetruscan.com with a link to a youtube
trailer which is really a short documentary with some good shots of etruscan places
At the moment I am working on an essay about KM and Lawrence and since I am a full time teacher, have so very little time to do everything. But I look forward to getting to know you all, and diving a bit deeper into your forum.
Thank you LL. I'll go see if I have that letter in my collection.
Oh I do have the letter in my The Selected Letters of D.H. Lawrence (ed. James T. Boulton). And what a marevelous letter. It does lend insight into Lawrence's ideas. Let me quote a couple of passages.
First, what a great sentence that first sentence is there. Lawrence was so gifted at writing such free flowing sentences. Second, so many of his ideas are packed in there. He believed in a utopia of people living naturally as in a pre-edenic state. And that pre-edenic state was a loss of will and ego (the self) and consciouness - "what we are personally is of second importance." What is of primary importance is the unconcious, rooted in connection with the natural spirit that is some form of deity. Notice also his metaphor is with vegetation and flowering. Flowers represent that perfect state of nature - no will or consciousness, just pure blooming in nature.Quote:
I want so much that we should create a life in common, a new spirit, a spirit of unanimity between a few of us who are desirous in spirit, that we should add our lives together, to make one tree, each of us free and producing in his separate fashion, but all of us together forming one Spring, a unanimous blossoming. It needs that we be in one spirit, that is all. What we are personally is of second importance.
And later in the letter he says the following:
The italicized words are italicized in the text, so I imagine Lawrence himself must have underlined them. Lawrence was serious around this time 1915-ish of gathering his friends and establishing some sort of commune in Florida. Remember that WWI was going on and he came to conclude that the war was a manifestation of corrupt society, a society gone wrong, and part of the root of that problem was because society had become overly conscious, overly mental, lost that connection to primal nature that enriched the unconscious and made us connected to that transcendental spirit. You can see he believed that such a pre-edenic state was possible, at least at this time in his life. He really wanted this commune and did go at length to set it up. His friends did not go along with it. Ultimately later he felt that humans could not let go of that ego, that self. Or at least he felt ambivilent that it could occur. I'm not sure myself if he ever lost that idealism. I would love to have a group read of Lady Chatterly's Lover, his last major work.Quote:
Let us all live together and create a new world. If it is too difficult in England, because here is all destruction and dying and corruption, let us away to Florida: soon. But let us go together, and keep together, several of us, as being of one spirit. Only let there be no personal obligation, no personal idea. Let it be a union in the unconsciousness, not in the consciousness.
By the way LL, Lawrence's travels can be seen as a search for that utopian place, that culture that revealed the way to live in such an edenic state. Sardinia, Italy, Austrailia, New Mexico, Mexico, and finally back to Italy with the etruscans. Perhaps this is the angle you need to teach that class. Establish the utopian ideas of Lawrence and then take him through his various journeys.
Excellent post, Virgil! I am wishing I had more time to write something too. I am sure I also have that letter and will look it up tonight later on. I want the time to fully comprehend what he communicates in these ideas to KM. Virgil, I posted the link to an article about The Minoan Distance in the other L thread...Etruscan...I think you will find it very interesting. There are a few interesting photos, as well. The book is available on Amazon and on Half.com but it's out of print.
I found it and commented. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Where did you comment?Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Right after your post with the link, in that other thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
True, but then I have commented on your comment since...go and see what I said....Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Thank you for replying to my post. Yes, it is a very moving letter. Actually, as you probably know, Lawrence convinced Katherine & Murry to try an experiment in "communal living" -- and took them to Cornwall, where he installed Katherine in a very bleak tower with a view of a boulder-strewn beach. It wasn't the best thing for her health - and she very ironically commented on what it is was like to live near the volcanic Lawrences in her diary. There's a great scene in which she describes Lawrence chasing Frieda with a frying pan -roaring "I'll kill you" and then shortly afterwards, Frieda chasing Lawrence - it ended with a knock out fight, in which F beat L even more thoroughly than he had ever beaten her, and at the end of the day, he was trimming her hat by the fire. That sort of emotional explosiveness was too much for KM and she escaped after a month, but later in her diary she also confessed that she understood it - and that she was exactly like L. in that regard. I think L's friends loved to be inspired by his ideas -- by his genius, by his enormous gifts -- but at the same time, I don't think any of them would have wanted to really live in a commune very long with him.
Thank you for telling me about the Minoan Distance I looked it up and will try to get hold of it. Yes, that was the tack I usually took when teaching L - the savage journey into self and the search for wholeness. We don't have time in the class to read other works by Lawrence. They have to do other stuff, and most importantly, they have to write literary travel pieces about their explorations of italy. Even though they are staying in the heart of Etruria -- and have an opportunity to see the painted tombs of Tarquinia, and also to explore rustic tombs outlying the Viterbo area which are still more or less in the condition they were when L. was here ( there's no art work left in them. But they are fascinating tombs hollowed out of rock, out in the middle of the countryside, covered in vines and weeds - not enclosed in any fences, so you can go at any time, even camp out if you like in some of them, and sometimes my more adventurous students do that) So, even with all that, they just don't get what L is driving at in Etruscan Places. It has no resonance for them.
On that note, with regards to EP - I really do feel that Lady Chatterley's Lover was deeply influenced by Lawrence's own feelings, musings, and beliefs concerning the Etruscans -- by his ideas of cosmic sex which he read into some of their art and his interpretations of their religion and of how their society was organized
Oh yes, I had forgotten they had tried living together in Cornwall. And it was a disaster. :lol: Like all utopias, they don't work. :D Whoo, yes Lawrence and Frieda did get into physical altercations, and Frieda was stronger than him. :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by LLItaly
You should both read the book D. H. Lawrence: The Story of a Marriage by Brenda Maddox (Paperback - Jun 17, 1996). It's an interesting book, which explores Lawrence's marriage to the strong willed Frieda. And yes, I agree with you, Virgil, I think she was stronger than he was, physically speaking. She didn't lose too often! :lol: