What is THE great British Novel?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kafka's Crow

If America is about different regions and locales, Britain is all about different classes.

---

I like the concept of class as a feature of British literature.

I would go with Lawrence Sterne's Tristram Shandy which plays with... deconstructs the elements of the novel... at the point of the novel's very inception. The book is also outrageous, outrageously funny, and one of the best tales of friendship ever penned.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kelby_lake

I like the concept of class as a feature of British literature.

---

There are loads of novels that are class based, or class reverential, or which deal with the peculiarities of certain aspects of class from Austen's books on the societies of middle and upper to Orwell's socialist The Road to Wigan Pier to, dare I say Rowling's HP series. It has proved a fantastic vein to mine, but the real fact of the class system is at best annoying but worst prejudicial and discriminatory. I suppose the best literature comes from conflict.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Paulclem

There are loads of novels that are class based, or class reverential, or which deal with the peculiarities of certain aspects of class from Austen's books on the societies of middle and upper to Orwell's socialist The Road to Wigan Pier to, dare I say Rowling's HP series. It has proved a fantastic vein to mine, but the real fact of the class system is at best annoying but worst prejudicial and discriminatory. I suppose the best literature comes from conflict.

---

And British class system becomes even more complicated with the arrival of immigrants and ethnic minorities. They are consigned to the working class by the huge broom of British system but then there are the second generation immigrants who are doing amazing things, deconstructing this life-sentence that their parents had to spend their lives in regardless of their capabilities and aspirations. In this respect America is a hugely more mobile and benign society. The lack of class system gives Americans freedom to write about their natural surroundings, their territory, its history (Southern novel), its sense of wonder and fear ("Woods are lovely dark and deep" or Hemingway's Lost Generation, lost but never too lost to mention and wonder at where they are at the time the narrative unfolds, whether in Spain or Cuba or Paris or Kenya, the sense of locale is concrete.) The New York Trilogy is all well and good, can you imagine some one, some day writing a Manchester Quartet?

British novel, compared to novels written in other literary traditions, feels ossified by the struggle of fitting in or surviving in a class. This gives English novel in particular and literature in general its typical parochialism. Nobody would have written The Moviegoer in Britain. There would never have been a Walker Percy or Dostoevsky or even Leo Tolstoy in Britain. Life is too concrete, in your face and and real here as nothing changes. Zola would have felt suffocated in this environment. Life is so concrete and static that no other system of thought but utilitarianism would have survived here hence the Great British traditions of Realism and Utilitarianism. Heck, even Joyce would have killed himself here by jumping off Putney Bridge into sluggish and dirty waters below. No wonder the great Irish novelists chose France, Italy and even Germany over England as their workshops.

"Bleak House" by Dickens

I always thought that the Great American Novel was supposed to be the work that best represented the zeitgeist of a particular era in American history.

If we're looking for a British equivalent then I'd probably pick something by Dickens, although it's hard to choose one title. Then there's Vanity Fair by Thackeray and Middlemarch by George Elliot and maybe even something like E.M. Forster's A Passage to India. They're all cliched answers but I think they all fit the description rather well. Sure, they may neglect to mention huge sections of society but so do all the Great American Novels.

The only problem I can see is that the United Kingdom has a very old and very convoluted history, whilst the United States is a relatively young nation that was founded on a specific set of ideals. Being British myself, I don't think that we have any equivalent to the American Dream or 'life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness'. There's not much of a sense of being British or even of being English unless it's during the World Cup or something like that.

Somerset Maugham's - Razor's Edge was way ahead of it's time.

His short stories caputure the British Colonial experience perfectly - "The Outstation" springs to mind.

The book I would most like to be The Great British Novel is White teeth by Zadie Smith. It ticks most of the boxes -Colonial Past, Class, Religion, Immigration, Ecentricity, Liberalism, Comedy - it's all there, it's how I'd like us to be, it's how I would like us to be seen. But because it is so recent it already feels dated and doesn't feel Great. And that's the trouble, in 50 years it may become a timeless classic.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tonywalt

Somerset Maugham's - Razor's Edge was way ahead of it's time.

His short stories caputure the British Colonial experience perfectly - "The Outstation" springs to mind.

---

Totally agree, the Outstation is brilliant in that it shows that the upper-class snob turns out to be right while the socialist with a chip on his shoulder gets murdered for his pains. Other great stories within the genre are Footsteps in the Jungle, The Door of Opportunity and P&O, but any of Maugham's stories are not only immensely readable but full of human psychology as well.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kafka's Crow

And British class system becomes even more complicated with the arrival of immigrants and ethnic minorities. They are consigned to the working class by the huge broom of British system but then there are the second generation immigrants who are doing amazing things, deconstructing this life-sentence that their parents had to spend their lives in regardless of their capabilities and aspirations. In this respect America is a hugely more mobile and benign society. The lack of class system gives Americans freedom to write about their natural surroundings, their territory, its history (Southern novel), its sense of wonder and fear ("Woods are lovely dark and deep" or Hemingway's Lost Generation, lost but never too lost to mention and wonder at where they are at the time the narrative unfolds, whether in Spain or Cuba or Paris or Kenya, the sense of locale is concrete.) The New York Trilogy is all well and good, can you imagine some one, some day writing a Manchester Quartet?

British novel, compared to novels written in other literary traditions, feels ossified by the struggle of fitting in or surviving in a class. This gives English novel in particular and literature in general its typical parochialism. Nobody would have written The Moviegoer in Britain. There would never have been a Walker Percy or Dostoevsky or even Leo Tolstoy in Britain. Life is too concrete, in your face and and real here as nothing changes. Zola would have felt suffocated in this environment. Life is so concrete and static that no other system of thought but utilitarianism would have survived here hence the Great British traditions of Realism and Utilitarianism. Heck, even Joyce would have killed himself here by jumping off Putney Bridge into sluggish and dirty waters below. No wonder the great Irish novelists chose France, Italy and even Germany over England as their workshops.

---

I agree with the effect immigration is having. I was talking to my wife about it yesterday - the immigrants coming into our poor working class areas are having a beneficial effect. We're onto second and third generation Indians and Pakistanis, and their extended family structures are so very strong that they are now developing into a significant part of the middles classes.

I think for that reason I don't think you can say that life is so static now - in urban areas anyway. There's still the ossification you talk about in various strata in the country - and this has been embodied in the countryside alliance supporting foxhunting, but seeming to think they embody something timeless and "natural" about the country. As a result they refer to urbanites like myself as townies... as they strut about in their 4x4 s.

Leaving short stories aside, the novel I would nominate would be Wuthering Heights. It has a great story and shows a deep insight into the human psyche.
Many readers of this novel are never quite the same afterwards.

I would agree with you there Emil. It is such a powerful story. I read it as a self obsessed young bloke, but it still made a great impression on me. It also seems to rise above a simple class depiction as well. Heathcliff is also a kind of Gypsey/ outsider/ immigrant to the moors as well.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Paulclem

I would agree with you there Emil. It is such a powerful story. I read it as a self obsessed young bloke, but it still made a great impression on me. It also seems to rise above a simple class depiction as well. Heathcliff is also a kind of Gypsey/ outsider/ immigrant to the moors as well.

---

Yes I think that Heathcliff is a major literary creation that transcends social barriers and is a force within himself. The one thing that keeps the force from imploding is his love for Kathy and this is at the heart of the novel.

Quote:

---

What is THE great British Novel?

---

Not sure, but I bet it's boring!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Samsa

I always thought that the Great American Novel was supposed to be the work that best represented the zeitgeist of a particular era in American history.

---

Yes, that's what the question's getting at, although it's not so much a zeitgeist but themes that run throughout American literature. The Great Gatsby captured the zeitgeist but it also contains themes that we associate with the "American spirit", whether that spirit is a construct or not.

Are there novels that we can consider as being indicative of the British spirit? And if not, why?

Anyone for Henry James's The Golden Bowl? The behaviour of father and daughter is a masterpiece of subtlety.

Or is James a Yank?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gladys

Anyone for Henry James's The Golden Bowl? The behaviour of father and daughter is a masterpiece of subtlety.

Or is James a Yank?

---

I think he is primarily an American although he spent a good deal of his life in England. The Golden Bowl was written before he took British nationality one year before he died and therefore, strictly speaking, it qualifies as an American novel.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kelby_lake

Yes, that's what the question's getting at, although it's not so much a zeitgeist but themes that run throughout American literature. The Great Gatsby captured the zeitgeist but it also contains themes that we associate with the "American spirit", whether that spirit is a construct or not.

Are there novels that we can consider as being indicative of the British spirit? And if not, why?

---

In this case, I would say Brideshead Revisted; it is just british, though the British people really have changed in 90 years time.

"What is THE great British Novel?"

There is no such thing.

There's no harm in putting some suggestions, though it would be difficut to encompass Britishness in one novel.

Ithink the greatest is David Copperfield.

My vote is for Dickens, Great Expectations, today, if I have to pick one.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Emmy Castrol

I like D. H. Lawrence and his portrayal of a changing England; one stuck between the old class system and modern industrialisation. So perhaps 'Women in Love'.
Or perhaps 'Wuthering Heights' which paints a beautiful story within a such lovely landscape. Not a big fan of Austen, nothing but unrealistic self-fantasy hidden behind fanciful language.

---

And you are entitled to your opinion-I am reading Pride and Prejiduce right now and find it very interesting.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mutatis-Mutandis

Not sure, but I bet it's boring!

---

Now you sound American! :lol::lol:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Buh4Bee

Now you sound American! :lol::lol:

---

But why not? The US has long been a Mecca for those with a short attention span who seek instant gratification. The animated cartoon and instant coffee are but two examples. Exceptions such as Herman Melville and Henry James merely underline the rule.

Haven't heard anyone mention Trainspotting.
I think Saturday Night, Sunday Morning should also be given a mention.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Emil Miller

But why not? The US has long been a Mecca for those with a short attention span who seek instant gratification. The animated cartoon and instant coffee are but two examples. Exceptions such as Herman Melville and Henry James merely underline the rule.

---

Sure, if you're the expert.

I'm going to go with Mrs Dalloway...Because Woolf's the only major British writer that I've actually read, and Dalloway seems like a more fitting choice than To the Lighthouse.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Emil Miller

But why not? The US has long been a Mecca for those with a short attention span who seek instant gratification. The animated cartoon and instant coffee are but two examples. Exceptions such as Herman Melville and Henry James merely underline the rule.

---

Well if you want to compare the low-born American and the low-born English, I think neither would come out on top. Need I reminde you of the whole chav culture? One should not insult another countries cults of retardation when plenty abound back home.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alexander III

Well if you want to compare the low-born American and the low-born English, I think neither would come out on top. Need I reminde you of the whole chav culture? One should not insult another countries cults of retardation when plenty abound back home.

---

Alas, I'm sorry to say that you are correct.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Emil Miller

But why not? The US has long been a Mecca for those with a short attention span who seek instant gratification. The animated cartoon and instant coffee are but two examples. Exceptions such as Herman Melville and Henry James merely underline the rule.

---

Hey, don't include me in that generalization!!

My favourite one is Austen's Persuasion, but I'd have to go with either David Copperfield or Jane Eyre.

I've just read Middlemarch, which is considered by some to be The Great British Novel, and I'm convinced that us English can't write epics. We can write long books with lots of people in them but all those epic themes about life...I don't think we can do it.

We do have a good tradition of satire though.

I'll put a word in for Emma. Middlemarch seems like a good choice to me too, though. How doesn't it have epic themes about life?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alexander III

Well if you want to compare the low-born American and the low-born English, I think neither would come out on top.

---

What do you mean by low-born and why do you always take these cheap shots at the poor and working class? Just like you always remind us that you are upper class.

It's really in bad taste and I think is a sign of immaturity (or perhaps insecurity?) on your part.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lykren

I'll put a word in for Emma. Middlemarch seems like a good choice to me too, though. How doesn't it have epic themes about life?

---

It has some interesting themes about life but it doesn't really achieve the epic status. There are no tragic heroes. Lydgate and possibly Casaubon are the only real contenders but Casaubon is portrayed as too pathetic and Lydgate just fizzles out.

It has some interesting themes about life but it doesn't really achieve the epic status. There are no tragic heroes. Lydgate and possibly Casaubon are the only real contenders but Casaubon is portrayed as too pathetic and Lydgate just fizzles out.

I think Eliot's novel is really an anti-epic, as she emphasises the importance of small acts and humble living rather than great ambitions. Anyone in Middlemarch with any ambition are punished.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kelby_lake

It has some interesting themes about life but it doesn't really achieve the epic status. There are no tragic heroes. Lydgate and possibly Casaubon are the only real contenders but Casaubon is portrayed as too pathetic and Lydgate just fizzles out.

I think Eliot's novel is really an anti-epic, as she emphasises the importance of small acts and humble living rather than great ambitions. Anyone in Middlemarch with any ambition are punished.

---

I think I'm working under a broader definition of an epic, namely, one that is a function of the scale and philosophical and moral scope of a work. I suppose yours is strictly speaking more accurate though.

Why is there so often a tendency in threads like this to want to be hierarchical? Why do we always need a Number 1? So many posters have discussed the difficulty of comparing writers of different times and cultures. I think the only thing I got from Ayn Rand was a comparison must be between like and like or it is specious.Or as I seem to remember she says A is not B.

If you need a hierarchy compile a favourites list and put what you want at the top. Though I guarantee if you do it at different times in your life you will change your Number 1 often.

What about Tom Jones? Bitish morals and culture are interwoven with the humaneness that English wrting is all about