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Yes, if someone would try to make fun of Hz.Jesus or Hz.Muhammed here he would certainly get a reaction, a harsh reaction. But in USA they are making fun of Jesus continously. If people of USA aren't showing a reaction against it i would doubt their faith.Quote:
Originally Posted by weepingforloman
Also i would like to point one little detail, did you ever realize they never make fun of Moses in those TV shows or movies, books etc.? Could anyone explain me, why?
I have seen jokes ABOUT Moses, but never jokes AT Moses's expense. I think it might be because Jewish people don't actually worship Moses, or maybe just for no reason at all...
As an American, I'd say there is a general lack of faith in this country.
So are you an agnostic then, if you do not presume to know whether God is real or not? Personally, I find agnostics even worse than believers and that's saying something.
You seem to assume that atheism is a belief. Its not. Its an absence of belief in a god. If atheism was a belief, then, just as other beliefs have fundamentalist and non-fundamentalist believers, so would atheism. But tell me, what would a non-fundamentalist atheist believe that would separate him or her from other atheists?
You know, I can really see what you mean, about you poor christians. After all, you've only had 1600 odd years to screw up the minds of the western world; to pedal your superstitious primitivism around the globe (did you hear the one about the missionary who explains to the tribal leader that he's come to tell him about the gospel, and that those who believe in Jesus will go to heaven and those that don't will go to hell? The tribal leader asks what happens to those people in far-flung corners of the globe, who are not told this, to which the missionary says that they will be saved by grace. So why did you not leave us alone then? asks the tribal leader); to infect states, institutions, and other religions with your prejudices. Yes its a hard life. But maybe you should complain to your presumed/unpresumed real/unreal god not me. By the way, what can it mean for you to not presume that god is real? I would say that a persons actions reveal their presumptions wouldn't you?
It means he's not so arrogant to assume that he's absolutely correct, especially in a situation like this where there is no proof either way.Quote:
So are you an agnostic then, if you do not presume to know whether God is real or not? Personally, I find agnostics even worse than believers and that's saying something.
I have to kindly disagree. Belief by nature is not restricted to the realms of superhuman deities. You can believe in anything you want, be it God or astrology or homoeopathy. But maybe is 'believing' the wrong word here anyway. I think 'trust' might be better since it doesn't carry as many religious associations as 'believe' does.Quote:
Originally Posted by atiguhya padma
Regarding your theory about fundamentalist atheists: I don't think this term is applicable at all here, at least not in a realistic way. I have no statistical evidence to prove this, but I think that atheists normally do have a belief - they believe in science. Unlike religion based on scripture, science actually evolves and changes over time. If some theory is found not to be plausible, it is put into the trash can and replaced by a theory that explains the observed occurences better. Scripture on the other hand doesn't evolve, it's statical. It doesn't even have to be plausible. It's holy and that's that.
So in my opinion, there is no such thing as a 'fundamental atheist'.
I'm afraid your missionary is wrong-- only faith can save, and those who are not judged by their denial of the Gospel are judged by their failure to do what they no is right in every situation. The world is hard... things that are true are hard.Quote:
Originally Posted by atiguhya padma
Oh, and Christianity screwed up mankind? How about the "Communist" (and atheist) revolutions of Russia and China? That's not screwed up?
How about Hitler-- he essentially forced loyalty to the Nazis to take precedence over all else... so he often "punished" faithful Christians.
How about Mother Theresa? How about Dorothy Day? How about John-Paul II (I'm not Catholic, but he was a good man)? How about William Wilberforce? How about the American Abolitionists?
I'll not deny that great atrocities have been done by those who claim divine support-- but I would argue that one who truly believes in and loves Christ could not, and would not, do the kinds of things you refer to.
Grace and Peace.
I wouldn't mention Hitler at all if I was in your place. The argument is not only very weak because it's all but clear that he actually was an atheist, it also damages your own cause due to the involvment of the church in the consolidation of possible political influences (not to talk about the lack of involvment on the side of the vatican).Quote:
Originally Posted by weepingforloman
This is the same clever word-play that many atheists like to engage in - but it's incorrect and misleading. Certainly you disbelieve in God - but to do so is simply the obverse of the coin that says "I believe that those who believe in God are wrong; and, since I disbelieve in God, then I choose to believe that the answers of existence are to be found in nature, because that is the only thing that exists." All perspectives require a belief of some sort - no perspective can be defined by a lack of belief. Sorry.Quote:
Originally Posted by atiguhya padma
"Screw up the minds of the Western world?" Right. You got anything more substantial than a joke to corroborate that claim?Quote:
Originally Posted by atiguhya padma
You cannot possible deny the enormous influence that Christianity had on the occident - on the way that people behaved, lived and, above all, thought. If that influence was for better or worse is a matter of opinion. I'm inclined to agree with the statement, although I would have certainly put it in different words.Quote:
Originally Posted by Redzeppelin
On the other hand, it's impossible to say how history might have evolved without the rise of Christianity. Maybe it was the lesser evil indeed.
I denied nothing. I take issue with the relentless focus of non-believers on the mistakes in Christianity w/o even bothering to look at the other side of the scales in terms of what Christianity gives that is good and positive. To deny this is to show a seriously skewed perspective which clearly does not wish to engage in real discussion but merely to bash instead.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuesday
Although I certainly agree with you here, it's very hard for a non-believer to really find things that are genuinely good and positive. All he can do is imagine what things might be positive about being a Christian. Let's take prayer, for example. He might understand that people find comfort and solace in prayer. On the other hand, he will feel it's a terrible waste of time, because they will avail nothing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Redzeppelin
But as you mentioned, bashing is something entirely different, and I agree.
Some good things Christianity has given the world:Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuesday
1) Numerous charitable organizations
2) A viable option for many people struggling with various addictions
3) A moral philosophy that stresses serving the community over one's own desires
4) Examples of forgiveness and service (Mother Teresa, Corrie Ten Boom)
5) A viable explanation as to the meaning of life, the existence of suffering and the remedy for human sin.
I'm not seeing much respect here anymore: the updated (as of today at 10:15AM-4GMT) Religious Texts forum rules:
http://www.online-literature.com/for...ad.php?t=15410