In my opinion, I think he lost interest in the series for a while.
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In my opinion, I think he lost interest in the series for a while.
I love this series...when the eggs are put in the fire and...well I don't want to spoil it but what happens after that was, for me, one of the most epic moments I've ever experienced in story. Up until that point, Daenerys fate was up in the air, her future reign could simply have been insanity or blind hopefulness. When that happened, however, all her talk of fate and bloodline was solidified and made very real.
As far as epic fantasy goes, I'll still give Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time the nod as my favorite. Song of Ice and Fire is a close second, a very well written, and detailed universe.
Yes . . .
SPOILERS
The birth of the dragons is truly one of the most epic moments in fantasy literature. Awesome scene. Can't wait to see HBO's adaptation of it.
Hey, there is now a release date for the next book, A Dance with Dragons. July 17th.
I'm re-reading A Game of Thrones (it's still excellent) right now in preparation for the HBO (which looks awesome) and want to read the other three before I move onto ADwD. Hopefully the paperback will be out by the time I get finished with the rest of the series (as I plan to read plenty in between).
I am about 3/4 of the way through the 3rd book. Unfortunately he killed off some of my favorite characters and I am having trouble picking it back up after a few months of neglect. .... and anyway I really don't see a point if he never finishes it. (Mutatis-Mutandi, how many times have we heard the news of a new release date) :)
He has a habit of doing that. :nod:Quote:
Originally Posted by Mariamosis
I actually don't know. Ignorance is bliss.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mariamosis
Quote:
Originally Posted by JBI
So I stumbled across this forum specifically looking for discussions of SoIaF, and I felt compelled to register so that I could respond (years after the fact, probably only to make myself feel better) to the accusations of JBI.
JBI. Your complaint, behind general accusations of "misogyny and rape fantasy fueling", seems to be that certain scenes in the books made you uncomfortable, by portraying topic that you (and no doubt the rest of the good people on this forum) would condemn, in a non-condemning fashion.
You were disgusted by the actions of some of Martin's characters. Why is that a bad thing? The cast of SoIaF is (with the exception of the lamentably headless Eddard Stark, IMO) to a man/woman seriously flawed in one way or another.
As some others have mentioned, there are scenes in the book that provoked strong emotions - Dany and the dragons rising from the fire was mentioned, as well as the Red Wedding. Among his characters, there are no heroes, only perspectives - some good, some bad, all presented for the reader's interpretation (well said, whoever said that first). How can a world where such evils, corruptions and banalities exist be adequately described, if not through scenes that provoke appropriate emotional responses to their content?
I would propose that the feelings of disgust that you felt reading certain scenes were intentional. Martin's a decent author, and tells a good story. The point of reading the hundreds of pages he writes is not to find out how the kingdom is saved at the end, it's to experience the journey, just as you're supposed to feel a surge of triumph when the dragons are born, or hear a mental wail of dismay when Eddard is beheaded (seriously, my favorite character, and you kill him in the first book? you're cold Martin, cold), you're supposed to fee disgust, or repulsion or whatever other negative, unpleasant emotion when terrible things are happening.
It's one thing to feel disgusted by a disgusting scene. Some people do disgusting things, and writing about them does not imply approval. It's part of building a richer experience.
It's another to put the book down and hide from the unpleasant feelings provoked by scene. He's not asking you to approve of the horrible things done, he's asking you to appreciate the wide spectrum of emotions required to describe a real world.
If you need your literature to come with moralistic footnotes agreeing with your disapproval of the actions of a character, Martin's probably a little complex for you.
Hello :)
I, too, found this thread and the forums while looking for discussions on the given series of books by Martin.
I agree with a lot of the points made by imoody16 and Drkshadow03 and some others.
A valid point that has been neglected in this (years old) discussion here is that G.R.R.Martin intended the story to be a trilogy - it just "grew" out of it, Martin has admitted to that personally; and it seems to go well with the opinions in this discussion that he'd hit a grandiose writer's block.
Therefore I find most of the things that JBI said close to moot as when you read the other books in the series (if I remember correctly then at the time when he wrote his critique he had read only around two books) the whole picture starts to come together. I find it strange how JBI took one instance of minor-oldster intercourse as a general theme of the books.
Yes - he is very graphic about sex, but he is very graphic about violence too. Truth be told he is very graphic about the whole story - the books read easy because of that, they have this movie-like quality to them, pulp, as someone called it. It is epic fantasy, but in no way is it high literature.
I personally discovered TSOIAF with the HBO series, but as it ran once a week and I had a lot of free time on my hands I picked up the first book before I finished the second episode and finished the third book a day after the last episode of the television series - it is now a fact already that they're going to do a sequel to that - probably the next book. Now I just started the fourth book and am waiting for the fifth to come out next month.
Why are people upset with him for taking a five-year break from writing this series ? I gather he's been busy writing other things during those years and as an author has every right to continue writing a story whenever he's ready. Goethe wrote his Faust over the period of half a century, mind I'm just comparing the times to write something not the literary value of said works of writing compared.
I liked how Ian Banks said that he likes to take a break from his Culture books, because he doesn't think that as a writer he's somehow obligated to cater to the fanboys, who might read his books in a few days and then demand the next one. A writer is an artist, if an artist starts rushing things for profit or popularity the work of art undoubtedly suffers from it.
Anyway, now that I've read some discussions on the series I'll return to reading A Feast For Crows and I'll get back to you :)
Just wanted to pop in and say thanks to Drk for making this thread worth reading.
I think JBI is most responsible for making this thread worth reading. :nod:
And, if you guys want to really get into ASOIAF discussion, check out the official ASOIAF forums. You can just Google them.
Has anyone read the new book in the series, A Dance With Dragons? I am about halfway through, and am less than impressed.
It was alright, it moved the plot forward a bit, I felt the third novel was a bit dragged out.
I think the third was the best. A little long, but it definitely had the best plot twists. I'm hoping something of the sort happens in ADWD (don't tell me, lol). So far it's been 500 pages of conversation and traveling.
As someone who has read all of them thus far, I honestly wish that I had stopped after A Storm of Swords. The last two have been horrid in my humble opinion. Either he is now dragging the series out to make more money off more books, or he has lost his story and has no idea where he is going. I've no idea which, but the result is effectively the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutatis-Mutandi
I liked it. I thought it was a significant improvement from A Feast of Crows. It's the only 500+ page book that I burned through in like two days this year. It has some major plot events that happen, though granted many of them are during the cliffhanger ending, it introduces some new plot events that will complicate matters even further, and shows the aftermath of A Storm of Swords. Many major characters may or may not be dead. We get to explore in depth the previously restricted other continents. It's the only book in the series so far where I actually liked Theon Greyjoy's POV.
I am enjoying Theon's POV. Probably the most interesting of the book.
I think that I'm not reading it very fast (been reading it for two weeks now) is one of the reasons I'm not enjoying it. I think these books should be read fast so it does seem like more happens faster . . . reading a few chapters a night just doesn't cut it. Still, it seems like I've run into more than a couple chapters in which I read them and thought, "Was that even needed?"
Still, I'm not done yet. Need to pick up the pace.
Theon's chapters were the best of the book and Ramsay Bolton one of GRRM's most disturbing creations. (Since The Pear Shaped Man anyway) Possibly inspired by Giles De Rais?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutatis-Mutandi
I enjoyed all 5 books immensely. Dance with Dragons suffers the same fate as Feast For Crows....I don't think his decision to split the two books the way he did really paid off. They result in books that start off slow and lag a bit more than the others....but the endings (particularly Dance With Dragons) are fantastic!
Yes, Ramsay was quite disturbing (and I agree, since I do know the Pear Shaped Man reference--what a creepy story).
I finished. Spoilers ahead.
I still feel disappointed with ADWD. For a 1000+ pages, it just didn't seem to move the plot forward enough. Bran had, what, three chapters? They were kind of neat, but didn't lead much of anywhere. GRRM seemed to have really been building up his character arc in ASOS, and it just kind of stalled once he started being a Greenseer. Arya had some interesting progress, though I don't think GRRM knows where to go with her character. Cersei got out of the jail, and Gregor is back which was not a surprise. Brienne showed back up, but we were given no explanation of how she escaped Corpse-Catelyn's noose, nor did we get any new info of Corpse-Catelyn. Tyrions's story was quite disappointing. He traveled for most of the book, and then had no impact on anything, and never even met with Daenerys. I guess that'll be for the next book, maybe. Jon's story went no-where until the very end, when it felt like GRRM was forcing in another shock for the reader, though I think it's becoming less shocking since the Red Wedding. Plus, I'm sure Meslisandre is just going to resurrect him. There's no way Jon will stay dead. Davos had a few chapters then disappeared. Victarion's chapters seemed pointless--seeing Euron Crow's Eye's exploits would have been much more interesting. Likewise with Asha--boring. As said before, Theon's chapters were excellent, though mostly due to the character writing, and not the plot (and plot is what carries ASOIAF). Quentyn ended up being a useless character. Sansa wasn't even mentioned.
The most disappointing was Daenerys' story arc, though. When she finally rode the dragon, I was like, "YES! Finally!" And then . . . nothing. She left the dragon! And then what happens? She runs into another Khalasar? That AGAIN? So, what, she becomes a Khaleesi again? That was extremely frustrating.
I did like seeing Varys show back up at the end. He's one of my favorites. I've come to the conclusion that he isn't really a eunuch. I'd bet money on it. Also, where was the Hound? Come on, after the huge tease in AFFC, and we don't even get a taste of where he is? Lame.
I'm going to have to disagree with you on a bunch of points, Mutatis-Mutandi. I think, while ADWD was not as fast-paced, plot turning as SOS, I like how Martin took the time to develop some characters in a way he hadn't in the first 3 books. Such as Tyrion: while Tyrion is not as badass or maybe witty as earlier, I think Martin grew him as a character. So even though he doesn't impact much in this book, his chapters are still quite revealing.
Jon's plot - I don't think these were pointless. I enjoyed how we saw all the problems that forced Jon Snow to tear down centuries worth of tradition before he (SPOILERS) suffered a Caesar-like fate. And I do not think he will be revived (I really hope not) - I think his death is necessary for the stand-off between the Wildlings and Stannis' forces. Also I think Stannis is still alive and that letter was a fake.
Bran's plot - I think it became clear in the last Bran chapter, where it is hinted that he is the "enemy" to Azhor Azhai, that we would have to wait until at least book 6 for his story to develop further.
Dany - Since she birthed the dragons, there has been this push for "when will she just conquer the Seven Kingdoms?" But Martin has kept her on a tight leash and put up so many road blocks in her way - meanwhile paving the way for Aegon to come and take over. I think it's an intended frustration on Martin's part that Dany is constantly dragged away from her goals. And I don't think she will stay with Jhaqo.
Quentyn's plot is not the greatest - but I like Martin's style of building up someone's journey just to kill them off before they really do anything (see Eddard Stark). It's kind of a middle finger to those expecting traditional fantasy plot lines.
I agree with you that Victarion seemed pointless - and not all that interesting. It is clear that he will become important during the inevitable sea battle at Slaver's Bay - but he could have done more, or been in the book less.
There were some gaps in the book, I agree. The fact that Davos and Brienne show up, suggest what is about to come but don't do anything seems to just be a "screw you, wait for the next book" - which isn't a good thing. In that way, both AFFC and ADWD suffer the middle of the series syndrome in which they just move things on a bit so the final strike can happen.
That being said, I don't think ADWD was as pointless as you paint it.
Spoilers.
I highly doubt Jon won't be revived. Plus, we don't even really know if he died. He was stabbed four times and then blacked out. Tons of room left open, there. Too much to be coincidence.
Tyrion had some character development, true, but I also found his chapters to be quite annoying. Hoe many times did we have to hear his inner thoughts about killing his father with a crossbow, or where whores go? It got really old.
Aegon is another problem I had with the book, actually. All of a sudden, it turns out Aegon didn't die? He just seemed to pop up out of no where.
the sex is not preferable mainly because its been a literary tradition for quite a long while to kinda to hint at sex but not come out and yell at it. wasn't until the mid to late 1800s that sex in literature got a lot bigger? i can't remember. anyway. i mean its a great book so far. I think that fact that Martin makes the characters so relatable its very easy to get immersed in the story. I think the character of Arya really takes me back to my childhood when I was in similar situations as her like getting into trouble and what i felt like when my dad came and talked to me. yeah im not a girl but its still relatable. tyrion, tho, is my favorite character so far. hes sarcasm makes laugh lolz
Arya and Tyrion always get the most votes for favorite characters. They're awesome.
It's all about Littlefinger, or Barristan
Just saw on Amazon that Martin is now putting out a Game of Thrones graphic novel. He's having Daniel Abraham (a better writer) do the "adaptation," so basically he gets to do nothing but collect the money. Seriously, how many money-grabs does this guy need?
I can't wait for Game of Thrones: The Animated Series.
I read all the books up to Feast of Crows, but stopped there and couldnt bear anymore. Now I barely remember what was happening. Dany, Jaime, Arya and the bastard boy on the ice wall (forgot name) were characters id like to know the end of.