Gone With the Wind

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Originally Posted by bounty

I have the play danik, but haven't read it yet.

to the very point of what youre saying though, you must hunt up the song by brad paisley and demi Lovato called without a fight.

im also reminded of a controversial sex/rape scene from the movie a history of violence. it stars viggo mortensen and maria bello as a married couple. he used to be a bad guy, now he's not anymore, but his past caught up to him, and maria takes major offense at the deception. if I remember rightly, she slaps him, and walks away up the stairs, he goes after her and grabs her ankle, she kicks at him, he subdues her and before you know it....

you might be able to find the scene online somewhere.

I think I shared this quote before. it seems timely to share it again:

“He certainly seemed to have all the qualities of a gentleman, but the interesting kind who knows exactly when to stop behaving like one.”

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Maybe you take a look at it sometimes. It is very enlightening as to what deep love coupled with frustration can lead.
I´ll hunt for the song, thanks for the tip also for the film scene.

Sexism is a bad reality here in Brazil. Almost every day one reads in the news about raped women or good looking young women killed usually by their former partners or boyfriends, who don´t accept the end of the relationship. It´s the idea of possession that is still very strong even at a time when women are getting financially and emotionally independent.

But in the case of Scarlett and Rhett there is an ambiguity, there is desire going against convention even as they are married( the woman has to behave like a lady and the man as a gentleman even in an intimate situation.

Ithink the quote applies better to Rhett Than to boring Frank Kennedy.

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Originally Posted by bounty

im onboard with the "one of the great American novels" sentiment.

and im still wondering what distinguishes a "soap" from many other written works containing human drama, or even why calling it that, if it indeed IS that, is derogatory somehow.

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"Wordeater" is now active on my other forum. I mainly agree with his/her opinion though I wouldn´t compare it to Anna Karenina.

As for the "soapy' I am a great fan of it. What happens with it IMO, is that it is commercially dependence on audience and propaganda. Most "soapys" here in Brazil are so called "open products". Differently as happens with the series, they can be changed according to the wish of their audience while they still are produced. Therefore they are considered a commercial and not an artistic product. In spite of it, we have had some very good soap operas which beside the standard love story address social, cultural and historical problems. You see, in a country, where most people watch TV but don´t read books, they somehow replace the written novel.

i'll be through with gone with the wind soon and will be looking for something else to read. I just started an elvis Presley biography but I don't like to just read non-fiction, so maybe i'll hunt up woolf. it might be a challenge to find though. all my paperback fiction books are roughly alphabetized and in plain view but I haven't been as consistent with drama. I think I have them in 3 different places maybe and I cant remember the last time I even saw that one.

i'll look forward to hearing what you think of the song (and the movie scene too). as an aside, demi Lovato kills it on some of the high notes near the end, in the 2:50 to 3:30ish range.

if you like it---a lesser version of the same sentiment can be found in luke bryan's kiss tomorrow goodbye.

its sad to hear such things. I understand in the past, although maybe it still goes on to an extent, muslim men would throw acid in women's faces.

oh for sure Rhett, not frank. in fact, I think I posted this earlier, its frank's acquiescence to scarlett's willfulness that paradoxically causes her to have contempt for him.

maybe this is somewhat related to the notion of women liking the "bad boy."

Seems you have got a bit tired of Scarlett O' Hara's adventures, Bounty. It´s an extensive book after all.
I´ll look for the song and the play later. I have to do things slowly these days (bad eyesight).

The problem with the "bad boys" as you call them, I think, is that they don´t have the word "danger" written on their forehead. Of course, there are "bad girls" too. But there are less lethal issues because of the difference in physical strenght.

ive been drawing out the ending danik by reading less gone with the wind and more elvis Presley, but it just came to me today that I actually have scarlett with is a sequel written in 1991 by Alexandra ripley.

no pressure at all, but if I read it sometime in the near future, and open back up the thread here, would you be interested to join in again?

I think "bad boys" do have danger written all over them. there are three prevailing theories as to why women still date them. one is, they are attracted to danger. another is that they lack self respect and are attracted to men who will treat them badly. another is that their mothering instinct kicks in with men who need fixing.

meanwhile, scarlett's pregnant again!

I sure would, even if I haven't read the book. I'm rather curious what this new author would add to the story.
The case with Scarlett is that she denies the attraction. At some level she trusts Rhett more than Ashley, because it is him she calls in when she needs help.
Some men are also attracted to bad girls. I think, as you say, danger becomes a challenge.

Now comes an important part of the story.
Speaking of pregnant, how is Spritzer?

I have a coworker who’s been through a string of “bad boys”. I asked her once why she keeps doing that to herself. Her reply was - well … it usually doesn’t end well, but at least it’s not boring.

well danik, on your "important part of the story" sentiment!

a lot has happened in the book since I was least here---still slowly drawing out the ending (I only have 12ish pages left).

scarlett had a miscarriage, bonnie was killed in a riding accident, and melanie either just died or is about to---holy cow!

I was waffling quite a bit on watching the movie, now im sure i'll put it off for quite awhile. way too much sadness...

and to that point danik---maybe scarlett gives the reader a shot at happy ending redemption.

on the topic of redemption---the movie forrest gump is about a lot of things, but I think the bestest thing its about is how forrest's
dutifulness and steadfast love redeems lieutenant dan, and more importantly, jenny. it takes melanie being on her deathbed for scarlett to finally realize what a rock melanie has been in her life, and how foolish she has been to love Ashley, and to not give herself to Rhett as she could have/should have.

that all seems like a lead-in to the famous "frankly my dear, I don't give a damn" utterance...

I appreciate your asking about spritzer, thank you. she's really good. its been about a month now that ive stopped feeding the birds so ive let her journey back outside. she knows she's not "captive" really as she comes and goes dependent on the weather and her desire to eat. she hasn't spent the night outside yet but i suspect that'll probably happen sometime soon. she loves having her face and especially her neck and chin scratched, and she spends some time every day sitting on my lap either getting petted, or napping. i have a few fake mouse toys she enjoys playing with, as well as the random pieces of bark laying around the floor. she cracks me up---if I bend down towards the floor she knows im going to slide something at her and she'll run around to hide herself behind something so she can pounce on it seemingly unawares. she's a really good goalie and lightening fast.on weekends she gets a special food treat, and every day she gets a little treat of vanilla pedia-sure that she laps right up. today I just got a flea collar for her---she's really sensitive to chemical smells so im hoping I can get it on her without her freaking out and running away.

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Originally Posted by Buh4Bee

I love this book too and read it when I was 12. I think that it has some significance, but it really is a soap opera. It's foolish it even suggest comparing it to Tolstoy.

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I don't think ive replied to this one yet...

another 12yr old reading this whoppin' big book! even though i wouldn't call gone with the wind "chick lot" I still plan to check everyone's gender.

I know that all of Tolstoy isn't war and peace but I read that book last year, and its similar in scope so i'll use that for commentary. one huge difference between the two is that the former was frequently boring and tedious. there was also a ton of writing that went on that pretty much did nothing to forward the story. for my taste, there were also too many characters being written about.

in short, if war and peace was lots more like gone with the wind it would have been enjoyable as opposed to a chore. im glad I read it, but I wouldn't recommend it to anyone.

maybe i'll give anna Karenina a shot someday...

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Originally Posted by bounty

well danik, on your "important part of the story" sentiment!

a lot has happened in the book since I was least here---still slowly drawing out the ending (I only have 12ish pages left).

scarlett had a miscarriage, bonnie was killed in a riding accident, and melanie either just died or is about to---holy cow!

I was waffling quite a bit on watching the movie, now im sure i'll put it off for quite awhile. way too much sadness...

and to that point danik---maybe scarlett gives the reader a shot at happy ending redemption.

on the topic of redemption---the movie forrest gump is about a lot of things, but I think the bestest thing its about is how forrest's
dutifulness and steadfast love redeems lieutenant dan, and more importantly, jenny. it takes melanie being on her deathbed for scarlett to finally realize what a rock melanie has been in her life, and how foolish she has been to love Ashley, and to not give herself to Rhett as she could have/should have.

that all seems like a lead-in to the famous "frankly my dear, I don't give a damn" utterance...

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Well, you have still 12 pages left! I didn´t remember about the illness of Melanie, thanks for reminding me.

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Originally Posted by bounty

I appreciate your asking about spritzer, thank you. she's really good. its been about a month now that ive stopped feeding the birds so ive let her journey back outside. she knows she's not "captive" really as she comes and goes dependent on the weather and her desire to eat. she hasn't spent the night outside yet but i suspect that'll probably happen sometime soon. she loves having her face and especially her neck and chin scratched, and she spends some time every day sitting on my lap either getting petted, or napping. i have a few fake mouse toys she enjoys playing with, as well as the random pieces of bark laying around the floor. she cracks me up---if I bend down towards the floor she knows im going to slide something at her and she'll run around to hide herself behind something so she can pounce on it seemingly unawares. she's a really good goalie and lightening fast.on weekends she gets a special food treat, and every day she gets a little treat of vanilla pedia-sure that she laps right up. today I just got a flea collar for her---she's really sensitive to chemical smells so im hoping I can get it on her without her freaking out and running away.

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"she hasn't spent the night outside yet but i suspect that'll probably happen sometime soon. she loves having her face and especially her neck and chin scratched, and she spends some time every day sitting on my lap either getting petted, or napping. i have a few fake mouse toys she enjoys playing with, as well as the random pieces of bark laying around the floor. she cracks me up---if I bend down towards the floor she knows im going to slide something at her and she'll run around to hide herself behind something so she can pounce on it seemingly unawares. she's a really good goalie and lightening fast.on weekends she gets a special food treat, and every day she gets a little treat of vanilla pedia-sure that she laps right up. today I just got a flea collar for her---she's really sensitive to chemical smells so im hoping I can get it on her without her freaking out and running away."

Do you expect that with all this vip treatment this cat will vanish easily out of your life? I am only a bit apprehensive about this flea collar. A free cat can easily get so easily tangled up with it while climbing, with no one near to help. One of my cats had one but she had to stay at home while using it.

I think she'll be okay danik. I have to have a collar on her already so I have something to attach bells too. otherwise she'd be killing things all the time. so far so good in that regard.

I finished the book the night of my last post.

at least two things come to mind that are worth talking about. I have a quote that i'll have to hunt up later that's germane to one of my points---it was tough to see scarlett be somewhat repenting, and have Rhett respond to her the way he did (even though I knew it was coming). was Rhett justified?

its been fun as I went along in the book trying to figure out the relationship between the goings-on in the story, and the title. that is, why is the book called what it is? what do you think?

Bells, oh my! But I get your point,Bounty. You are a good ambientalist.


Congrats for finishing the novel. I thing the thing that started killing definitively his love for Scarlett, was Bonnie. First he channelled all his love to her and then she died very soon in a very tragic way.And both parents accuse each other. So, when he gives that answer to Scarlett, it sounds genuine, he doesn't care for her any more.There was some inversion of roles at the end with Scarlett now caring for Rhett and Rhett being indifferent.

The title is wonderful. If you take the first scene, the tableaux on Tara of the rich farmers of the south, and the last scene with Scarlett on the deserted farm, you can see that for them a whole era has come to an end, has Gone with the Wind.

im a little bummed its over danik. I really enjoyed Margaret Mitchell's writing.

yes, those are the reasons Rhett would give---but was he right to leave scarlett?

I think your title exposition is insightful. makes you wonder if the author wrote the book first, and then came up with the title, or if she started with it and had a feeling she knew how the story was going to end.

Yes. It sure takes some time to get over its intensity. It was the author's world that was crumbling down. And it's US history.

ah but danik---was Rhett justified in leaving scarlett?

I have a quote I like that is fitting for the occasion: "a relationship is not about finding peace by being with another human being. it is about making a commitment to maintain contact and not run away when your partner is a mirror for the hardness in your heart."

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Originally Posted by bounty

"a relationship is not about finding peace by being with another human being. it is about making a commitment to maintain contact and not run away when your partner is a mirror for the hardness in your heart."

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Yes. Yes. Yes. ^^^

I've been watching a wonderful Irish TV series called Normal People which has made me think of both GWTW and you.

Not a direct parallel, but in many ways this is a modern equivalent of the love story component. Both sides unwilling to commit and loving so much as to be unwilling to make demands.

I think in both stories there are strong characters on each side unwilling to reveal their mushy core for fear of having it squashed, or worse, mocked. In each case they are losers thereby.

I've read the sequel. Worth a read but not quite up to Margaret Mitchell's standard. I think I can say without being too much of a spoiler that Scarlett grows and mellows.

spike---if you think you'll be around to join in on the conversation, I could read the sequel and continue on with the thread here...

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Originally Posted by bounty

ah but danik---was Rhett justified in leaving scarlett?

I have a quote I like that is fitting for the occasion: "a relationship is not about finding peace by being with another human being. it is about making a commitment to maintain contact and not run away when your partner is a mirror for the hardness in your heart."

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Sorry, bounty, missed that quote, thought the thread had gone to sleep.
It's a good quote, but people don't necessarily stay together for good reasons. Sometimes it's the habit that keeps them together.
In the case of Rhett and Scarlett they somehow switched roles
Scarlett fell in love with Rhett, while he grew indifferent to her.
Were they right to separate?It's difficult to say. They certainly weren't a conventional couple.

ah danik, should I let you off the hook that easily?? subsequent generations of litnet readers will be looking at our posts and wondering about your answer!

I don´t quite know what to answer now. As for subsequent generations of litnetters, I just read in the German forum that older posts are deleted in order not to overload the server. Each user has a right to 500 living comments (please, Germans love organization) I should love to know how this is here.

i don't know how long the sites been in existence but i regularly see threads from back in the 2000s. i joined in 2008.

just took a peek around and see the site lists the copyright as starting in 2000.

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Originally Posted by bounty

spike---if you think you'll be around to join in on the conversation, I could read the sequel and continue on with the thread here...

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You've probably noticed I only get here sporadically, but if you're thinking of reading the sequel I could take it out of the street library where I donated it and reread.

We could conduct an extended discussion, if you're on. Made lengthier because I'm about to set off travelling.

i just started reading Stephen king's misery spike and i'll probably be in that for 2-3 weeks. does a delay work better for reading scarlett?

also, there is another book out there called Rhett butler's people. it's supposed to be gone with the wind from Rhett's perspective, which is a pretty nifty idea. that'd be a run read too.

Am on Ch 6 where Rhett Butler is introduced. Once again, I was struck by a possible allusion to the oft repeated Jewish Question.

All throughout the book repeated stereotypical matters are raised. For example, Gerald O'Hara is presented as a stereotype Irishman which predilection for the spirits, his love of horses, his fascination with anything green colored, his repeated longings for the old country, his patriarchal tyranny over his daughters, his quick temper and fisticuffs, etc. Then there is Mammy with endless repetition of the dreaded N word, there are "d@rkies" who rated just above them, and then there are "cr@ckers" and at the bottom of the barrel there are "white tr@sh".

Butler is a big man described as having a large forehead, hook nose, thick lips, and dark skinned ~ terms used to denote stereotypical Jews in the past. He is described as "not received" (unwelcome) and is said to be a seducer of women, a wealthy scion exiled from his family (Wandering Jew?), from Charleston, SC. He is manipulative, a trouble maker, wealthy, enterprising, a blockade runner & smuggler. Could all this mean that the writer was saying that he was a stereotypical Jew?

In 1862 virulent Jew hater General Benjamin Butler* (hmmm ~ Butler), a personal acquaintance of President Lincoln prosecuted several Jewish blockade runners and smugglers who led a corrupt operation from NYC to of all places Charleston, SC (Rhett's home town). While some have said that Rhett was based on a corrupt Confederate named Trenholm** (a wine importer, banker, and maritime operator), the linkage to stereotype Jews seem more than coincidental.

I tried to find some source online to see if this has been discussed previously but perhaps someone else may know if Mitchell intended to draw such parallels.




sources:

* https://www.shapell.org/manuscript/a...trayed-savior/

** https://shipwrecks.com/discovery_of_..._rhett_butler/

i found this, which is consistent and is more or less complementary with your second link, and that you might still enjoy:

https://columbiametro.com/article/a-...dventure-hero/

the word "stereotype" is interesting---the argument is that it comes from a human need to categorize and simplify, which I can agree with---and that its all a first step in discrimination and ethnic/racial bias, which I don't necessarily agree with.

anyway---are you liking the book?

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Originally Posted by bounty

i found this, which is consistent and is more or less complementary with your second link, and that you might still enjoy:

https://columbiametro.com/article/a-...dventure-hero/

the word "stereotype" is interesting---the argument is that it comes from a human need to categorize and simplify, which I can agree with---and that its all a first step in discrimination and ethnic/racial bias, which I don't necessarily agree with.

anyway---are you liking the book?

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EXCELLENT article! Thanks for posting the link which should be read by all.

Yes, I agree 100% with your highly insightful definition of stereotype.

As for the book, indeed, I am enjoying. Am so sorry now that I had not joined in other exchange a little while back. My volume was a reprint from 1936 - the pages are dingy but still readable. I understand those sequels are quite good. Perhaps some day I'll get to them.

Haven't watched the movie in many, many moons. But I'm sure I'll watch it again some day as I was always quite a fan of extraordinarily beautiful Olivia de Havilland.

BTW, what did you think of the movie?

im glad you liked the article. its interesting that folks do that kinda work.

I once knew a man who had been friends with a guy who had been friends with zane grey, and that man (the one in the middle there) was the basis for a character in one of grey's books.

I decided to not watch the movie and for some reason its still not tempting me. could be the length of it, could be that I liked the book so much that I wanted to leave it at that.

in terms of your girl olivia---I thought "melanie" was a great character in the book.

Just a bit more on Butler ~ he was also described in Ch 8 as "swarthy and piratical" looking. In those days as part of the then existing stereotype, Jews were said to be the greatest pirates of the old days. Will continue to look for any further descriptions of him in the narrative.

Melanie, indeed, appears to be a great character. But, so far, the most interesting character in the Hamilton family is Uncle Peter - a slave who appears to be in command of the household.

@bounty and others ...


I hope this is not a dumb question but I'll give it a go anyways:

In this or in the dormant threads about GWTW did the issue of Is this a racist novel? come up? was there a consensus one way or the other?

I know that when the novel was re-issued not too long ago, there was an added advisory which suggested that it may have been so, was full of objectionable and out dated terms, and may have suggested some benign views of slavery, of stereotypes, and of segregation. That one should proceed with caution if they are about to embark on reading it.

Am up to Ch 11 and, so far, cannot honestly say that I find it racist. Yes, it does reflect some rather harsh, inhuman, demeaning, and down right stupid aspects of American life back in that era. But, so far, I cannot honestly say that Mitchell had written an apologia for all those terrible conditions. Had she defended any such thing, had she said that this is the way it should be today, tomorrow, and forever, that that d@mned be the one who dares object to this view, then I'd say it was racist. Again, so far, I have not seen any such elements. If there were any please point them out to me.

i haven't looked at any other threads on the book poppin, but when I resurrected this one, danik joined in and some of our interactions were about the question you raised. you might enjoy peeking back through those.

a fun question for you---if uncle peter is an interesting character, what does that say then in terms of "benign views of slavery?" (something else danik and I talked about a little).

a similar question can probably be asked about mammy.

I did thumb through the early posts but did not find any concrete determination or consensus on the issue I raised. Suffice it to say no on here found it rampantly racist which is my view (for now).

Much of the exchange dealt with Miss Scarlett which is understandable since she is the main character. But before I discuss her, I'd like to add just a bit more about Rhett Butler:

Again, he was described as "swarthy" (dark skinned). Then the narrative went into his industry which was blockade running. He dealt in wines, textiles, cargo, and other commodities that could be used in war. What struck me was the segment in which he was said to communicate quite readily with women about (of all things!) women's garments including under garments. Some women felt uncomfortable discussing this with him but he felt quite as ease on the subject. This is among the other Jewish stereotypes -- an obsession with women's under clothes*! And, of course, as we discussed in Maggie, A Girl of the Streets the garment industry was almost entirely controlled by Jews in that era.

Thus, once again I am led to conclude that Butler may well have been an example of a Jewish stereotype.





*https://shorturl.at/blnyB

In the narrative, writer Mitchell reveals that proper Southern gentlemen referred to ladies by their first names preceded by the title Miss. Frankly, I thought that this was a practice done only in the Northeast. I grew up that way referring to young ladies as Miss _______ followed by the first name. It was always (as in the book) a sign of respect.


One post above indicated that the poster felt she was not interested in the war. I disagree. In fact, she was quite interested in it. While she was initially bored and disgusted with talk of war, she later became angered that there were still men in the South of draft age who had not gone into combat. Then it says that she hoped the war would go on longer in the hope the South would win. She wants men to sacrifice for her despite all the moans and groans in the hospital she works in. Wow - what a sexist! On top of all that she is narcissistic, terribly shallow, totally indifferent to the pains others may be suffering, and more.

Miss Scarlett is very enterprising and eventually amasses considerable capital. This was rather unusual for the era. But her selfishness and obsessive character speaks badly for her. While defo being a very compelling person, a feminist model she is not. But then, given the times and the negative outlook of the era and the people therein, we would be hard pressed to find much to be admired in the book's many interesting characters.

Quote:

There is never but one reason for war. And that is money.


~Captain Rhett Butler



Ch 12, page 231



That remains true even unto this day.

to the point of defining terms---if theres a difference between a "racist book" and a book that has racism in it, we'd have to figure that out.

on another level, the term racism has been so overused and overapplied as to be almost meaningless, so the word itself would need some clarification.

I remember looking at scarlett as a sort of feminist precursor. she's full of traits some modern day feminists might admire, while rejecting other aspects of her.

I was actually surprised as concerns her when I read the book---I went in thinking she was going to be a tremendously admirable character, and in some ways she was, but on the whole, there was way too much about her that wasn't commendable.

im from the northeast poppin and spent most of my life here. I didn't grow up with the "miss ___" salutation though. I wonder if it was a generational thing, or maybe just very parochial. ive often associated with the south---and heck, I have to wonder now how much of that comes from how "miss scarlett" has infiltrated the popular lexicon. i wonder if maybe it shows up in some old northeast literature.

to ascribe or reduce war to a matter of financial gain is to discount the fallen nature of man as well as the need for self-defense, the execution of justice, and the preservation of liberty.

^ nice comment


Haven't gotten to it as of yet but IIRC from past accounts, the KKK was presented as being heroes (at least to some extent) in the book. I believe that this was the principle reason why some called it racist.

Yes, 'Miss' is, I suppose a generational thing. Interestingly, in the multi tenement building where I live, we used to have many seniors and some of the older ladies would refer to each other as Miss _____ (first name). Again, I don't see that anymore.

Ashley Wilkes's wife Melanie (née Hamilton) said war was caused by prejudices. Both Ashley and Butler said the war was a lost cause, nothing honorable about it. Interestingly, despite their bravery and honesty, they were viewed as "cowards" by some of those Confederate cynics. Very interesting dialog among them.

The one thing that stood out in the dialog that I have seen (or not seen) thus far is the fact that no one appears to have suggested that the war was about the promotion of slavery because (allegedly) it was a wholesome, god ordained, institution. Or, if it was said to be that way, I've missed it.

Tara's Theme was used in the old "Million Dollar Movie" in NYC back in the day:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPTQRmwCOWs


What memories it brings back to me and the commentators there.

one of the really nifty things about music isn't it poppin, how it can elicit memories.

what youre writing is reminding me of something ive said to Sancho a few different times at least---the topics would make for great essays or masters thesis studies in English.

you might enjoy this poppin. ive watched it a few times now and continue to find it worthwhile:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXCAAZ8_fCM

^ Thanks for that excellent link.



I recently attended two high school baseball games and was quite pleased to see that students are still reading Brothers Karamazov and Huckleberry Finn. As we discussed previously, Dostoyevsky was a rabid anti Semite and Twain has been falsely accused of racism. Because of this, there have been efforts to censor these writings. But despite the unwarranted attacks upon these books by unknowing cynics, both are still being read with great interest and fervency. As an evolving society we simply cannot afford to close our eyes, hearts, and minds to the events of the past as we would lose far more than we could possibly gain by setting it all aside.

Years ago I was a member of an American history web forum which is now inactive. We would do a group reading of an American history book without any limitations on the subjects discussed. Whenever I made my concluding remarks on the book I would preface it with PAST IS PROLOGUE. This because indeed, there is nothing new under the sun. We must always keep an open mind to what has happened in the past and we must continue to glean any and all lessons that we can from those events.