Second Language?

Camilo, I can agree with the majority of your last arguments, but also I can not. Most of them depends of the point of view.

I am not pretendig to make my sentences a absolutely truth. Some sentences, I think, can be, but most of my arguments depends of the point of view, as yours depends as well.

What makes me sad is the way you undestand my posts.

I know science is a method and not the object. I said "argue about scientifical FACT". A fact is a object, not a method.

However, often the science method is also the object of the study. Did you know about Positivismo? It just 1 example among 1.000000.

The same way, you did to me about Cordel. I know repentista is improvisation. Just because I do not know how to call a person who sings cordel you concluded that I do not know what repentista means.

The same thing you have done with all my argues!

Yes, Ferrari can be seen as a modern chariot, why not? Or it can be seen as a car, as well. All definitions. Always labels!
"Horsepower" is the definiton for the potence of a engine car. So, why not Ferrari can be seen as a modern chariot? It is just a label.

Again, most of things that JBI and you (JCamilo) say can be true, but that kind of truth depends of the point of view. Ufortunatelly you deny to see that.

Some other arguments from you I really disagree. But better finish that, cause it does not add anyhing good to anyone .:wave:

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I know science is a method and not the object. I said "argue about scientifical FACT". A fact is a object, not a method.

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I am only pointing to you that the claim that Art is subjective therefore its study can not be objective (or scientific) is not true, because you can study subjetive objects. Such you claim art is.

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However, often the science method is also the object of the study. Did you know about Positivismo? It just 1 example among 1.000000.

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Positivism is a philosophic system (with religious origem), which views had influence on the formulation of scietific method. It does not study the scientific method, and I am aware that it is studied. It is pointless, science can study anything (and that is a very positivist thing to say).

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The same way, you did to me about Cordel. I know repentista is improvisation. Just because I do not know how to call a person who sings cordel you concluded that I do not know what repentista means.

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Dude, if you call a Airplane a fish, you can not complain. You can not know hwat Repentista means, if it means something who improvise verses if you claim they work with cordel, which is not improvisation.

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The same thing you have done with all my argues!

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Cann't you just imagine that your arguments were build in such misconceptions ?

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Yes, Ferrari can be seen as a modern chariot, why not? Or it can be seen as a car, as well. All definitions. Always labels!

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Yes, once I saw a guy calling a hot girl a Ferrari too. Wonderful the figurative power of language, but a Ferrari is not a chariot at all (An airplane is not a zepellin either, just because both are used for the same purpose).

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"Horsepower" is the definiton for the potence of a engine car. So, why not Ferrari can be seen as a modern chariot? It is just a label.

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That is where you argument goes, the relativism, since every word can be anything, anything can be accept. But sorry, not knowing horsepower was a figurative way of language when the engines are created is deadly wrong. I mean, you do not think just because a Mansion can have "wings" ,it is a bird.

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Again, most of things that JBI and you (JCamilo) say can be true, but that kind of truth depends of the point of view. Ufortunatelly you deny to see that.

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Not all POV are right, it is what I am pointing.

I am tired of that.

I will not pass my life in front of a computer trying to answer each thing someone post.


I am open for debate, but not for eternity.



For anyone.
http://www.online-literature.com/for...646#post581646

Talk about the total and utter destruction of a thread. The poor sod only asked one simple question:

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I'm considering learning a second language and I was wondering, from a literary point of view, what would be the best language to learn? In other words, (In your opinion) what non-English language has the best literature?

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As far as Shakespeare's greatness is concerned, he is the pinnacle of literary greatness. Every culture has it's own 'Shakespeare', ie. the greatest literary figure. Even literatures with absolutely insignificant tradition of 'drama' would have a Shakespeare. Ghalib is called the 'Shakespeare of India' although the good old man from Delhi might have never seen 'boards' in his entire life. He was a poet who wrote in Urdu, a literature with very negligible theatrical output, though a great wealth of poetry. 'Shakespeare' means the greatest writer and every literature has one. Decades of reading Shakespeare did not help me when I had the worst moments of my life, a few couplets from Ghalib helped understand the situation (yes literature helps you face situations in life as well as DEATH, it gives you references). But this is subjective, highly subjective. It doesn't make the good old poet from Delhi greater than any other poet. Every culture has its own Machado de Assis, its own Shakespeare, its own Ghalib. We can not say one is greater than the other. Are we in a position to judge? Do we know all the languages involved, do we know the socio-economic factors that influence a literature, the political factors that strengthen a language, till it becomes one of 'the masks of conquest' (to quote Gauri Viswanathan) along with its literature. Do we know about the role language and literature played in colonialism? There are scores of factors that influence our judgment of a literature or its representatives. Then there is the question of the genre as well. Novel and drama are more commercial genres and every re-incarnation of certain works either in translation or film or even special editions of texts puts a whole gamut of marketing machinery in motion that re-invigorates its status. Poetry is difficult to translate, specially the highly Persianised Urdu 'ghazal' is virtually impossible to be translated in English without losing a large chunk of its effect. Thus comparing writers from different cultures is not a safe exercise and can lead to error and prejudice.

Sorry I gave up on this thread after the comparison between de Assis and Shakespeare. Still this is an excellent advice:

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My advice for all:
Learn another language, know more about other cultures, travel a lot, search for other readings, study philosophies, analyse your life before it is too late...
Open your eyes for unknown.

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I appreciate all you said Kafka's Crow. Every culture and language has its own Shakespeare.

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My advice for all:
Learn another language, know more about other cultures, travel a lot, search for other readings, study philosophies, analyse your life before it is too late...
Open your eyes for unknown.

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Originally Posted by sofia82

I appreciate all you said Kafka's Crow. Every culture and language has its own Shakespeare.

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But who is the Shakespeare of Iran? There are so many very great poets who wrote in Persian Language. Is it Sa'adi, the Nightingale of Shiraz, or is it Hafiz (weren't the random pages of his works used to forecast future events?) Is it the majestic Firdausi, or the beautifully lyrical Rudki. Even Ghalib and Mir and other masters from Delhi left behind a huge amount of poems in Persian. How could a language attract poets from so far and distant lands? StLukesGuild should be able to elaborate this point but Persian sensibility can be traced in the beautiful miniature paintings if you don't know the language.

http://persia.org/Images/Miniature/miniature.html

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Originally Posted by Kafka's Crow

But who is the Shakespeare of Iran? There are so many very great poets who wrote in Persian Language. Is it Sa'adi, the Nightingale of Shiraz, or is it Hafiz (weren't the random pages of his works used to forecast future events?) Is it the majestic Firdausi, or the beautifully lyrical Rudki. Even Ghalib and Mir and other masters from Delhi left behind a huge amount of poems in Persian. How could a language attract poets from so far and distant lands? StLukesGuild should be able to elaborate this point but Persian sensibility can be traced in the beautiful miniature paintings if you don't know the language.

http://persia.org/Images/Miniature/miniature.html

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Yes, if one don't know the language, the best way is to go through the art of that country. Miniture is one of the great and typical persian art. There are so many great poets, like other countries, that no one can say this is the Shakespeare of Iran or not! Hafiz (as you said people refer to his work as a forcast for the future, and it really works, as you can interpret it the way you want. Sha'adi, Molavi (MUlana), Roodaki, Ferdousi, KHay'yam (his poetry translated by Fitzgerald, although it is good, but cannt convey the meaning and the theme in the poems), BabaTaher, Khaghani ... and so many other poets. And Nezami who was Azeri but wrote the best romances in the persian language (Leili va Majnon: Romeo and Juliet in Persian literature). There are also great modern poets and literary figures such as Nima, Sohrab and ...

I love persian miniature. And here is the official site of Farshchian, the famous artist in miniature:

http://www.farshchianart.com/farshchian.htm

For Kafka's Crow
I loved you post, thanks!

For JCamilo
I told you to search for Dr. Freud, cause he wrote a analysis about Shakespeare. It is really interesting.

About music and poetry:
Chico Buarque wrote a song (Para Todos) and it is in redondilha verse.

For JBI repectfully I say:
First you told Machado and Shakespeare are not at the same level.
Latter you told that you have never read Machado.
So, I concluded that you have denied you own point of view in name of the traditional concept. It is important you have your own point of view. So you must read Machado to you have your own point of view.

For who wants to study a foreign language
Only yourself can decide what is the best literature, no one can decide for you.

My last post:
http://www.online-literature.com/for...t=35032&page=7

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For JCamilo
I told you to search for Dr. Freud, cause he wrote a analysis about Shakespeare. It is really interesting.

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Usually I find Freud Manipulative. Most people have their "bigotony" but Freud is something else. The way he reduces literature to what he desires to find for his theories...meh. I just prefer to not return to Freud (I mean, you are telling me to know one of the most famous individuals of XIX-XX centuries) is because as literature, he knew little. The criticals such as Harold Bloom that know about literature and are freudian, are more interesting to read.

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About music and poetry:
Chico Buarque wrote a song (Para Todos) and it is in redondilha verse.

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And, didn't you got that techniques are not exclusivity of one artistic expression only and they will move from one to another, thanks to the talent of the artist?

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Originally Posted by Antiquarian

People usually go to school, or if older, have jobs and families. They have children, bills, and mortgages to pay. They don't have the time or the money to do all those things and to travel a lot, which is very, very expensive. I was lucky I saw the world when it was a lot less expensive to travel. I know people who have a hard time buying books, let alone traveling a lot.

You're describing the lifestyle of the idle rich, who usually don't care about anything but rising in the ranks of society and getting their photo on the front page of a magazine. Most Americans are lucky to get one or two weeks of vacation each year and then they don't usually travel far away. Some spend it at home with their family, who they rarely see otherwise.

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Sell everything, buy a sailboat, go where you want, eat lots of seafood, write travel articles, and spend money only when in port (two days a month). But you won't need to learn other languages, because there won't be people around to speak to.

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Originally Posted by Antiquarian

My advice for all:
Learn another language, know more about other cultures, travel a lot, search for other readings, study philosophies, analyse your life before it is too late...
Open your eyes for unknown.

Who has the time and money to do all that? There was a time when I traveled all over the world, most of the time, but not now.

People usually go to school, or if older, have jobs and families. They have children, bills, and mortgages to pay. They don't have the time or the money to do all those things and to travel a lot, which is very, very expensive. I was lucky I saw the world when it was a lot less expensive to travel. I know people who have a hard time buying books, let alone traveling a lot.

You're describing the lifestyle of the idle rich, who usually don't care about anything but rising in the ranks of society and getting their photo on the front page of a magazine. Most Americans are lucky to get one or two weeks of vacation each year and then they don't usually travel far away. Some spend it at home with their family, who they rarely see otherwise.

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I have four children, (all under 11 years old) have a full time stressful job, mortgage, bills, Amazon.com (one of the major expenses) still I have managed to travel a good deal, learned six different languages, learned a good deal about other cultures and come to the conclusion that it was all well worth it. I am waiting for the kids to grow up and be independent. Then I'll pursue knowledge systematically. I haven't even started yet and there is a long way to go. I am not rich, my face never appeared on the front page (on any page, for that matter). Where there is a will there is a way. Nothing should stop us from aiming high.

I have serious problems with psychoanalytical interpretations of any literature therefore would stay away from Freud's readings of Shakespeare (read them back in early 90s and developed an instant abhorrence for them). Have you been watching Mel Gibson's Hamlet recently, Brasil?

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Originally Posted by Antiquarian

My advice for all:
Learn another language, know more about other cultures, travel a lot, search for other readings, study philosophies, analyse your life before it is too late...
Open your eyes for unknown.

Who has the time and money to do all that? There was a time when I traveled all over the world, most of the time, but not now.

People usually go to school, or if older, have jobs and families. They have children, bills, and mortgages to pay. They don't have the time or the money to do all those things and to travel a lot, which is very, very expensive. I was lucky I saw the world when it was a lot less expensive to travel. I know people who have a hard time buying books, let alone traveling a lot.

You're describing the lifestyle of the idle rich, who usually don't care about anything but rising in the ranks of society and getting their photo on the front page of a magazine. Most Americans are lucky to get one or two weeks of vacation each year and then they don't usually travel far away. Some spend it at home with their family, who they rarely see otherwise.

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The only thing that actually requires a substantial amount of money is travelling. Whether you want to learn new languages or about other cultures is a personal choice; those who set aside time for personal endeavors will find the time to do those things. By no means are these people confined to the "idle rich". It simply depends on whether or not the person in question wants to learn.

I think I can claim that I've tired to learn new languages and about new cultures and I am poor.

The Sanskrit language is one that is both very flexible and very precise.
Take a look at the following site: http://acharya.iitm.ac.in/sanskrit/tutor.html, it is for self-study.

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Originally Posted by Antiquarian

But you're not married with children. The others require a substaintial amount of time, and most Americans just don't have that. They spend about eight hours a day sleeping, eight hours at work, two hours cooking dinner, eating, and cleaning up, two or so hours with the children, time with their husband or wife. It's just not feasible for most Americans with a family and job to do those things. It would be nice, and they should be able to squeeze in maybe one thing, but not all the poster recommended.

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Make learning (languages, about other cultures, etc.) a family thing? :D

Yes, you are correct, I am not married with children. Probably won't be for years either (if at all).

Audiobooks are great for long car drives (well, anything > 30 minutes), something that seems common among many Americans.

Anyways, the advice is good advice for young'uns like me. :)

But who is the Shakespeare of Iran? There are so many very great poets who wrote in Persian Language. Is it Sa'adi, the Nightingale of Shiraz, or is it Hafiz (weren't the random pages of his works used to forecast future events?) Is it the majestic Firdausi, or the beautifully lyrical Rudki. Even Ghalib and Mir and other masters from Delhi left behind a huge amount of poems in Persian. How could a language attract poets from so far and distant lands? StLukesGuild should be able to elaborate this point but Persian sensibility can be traced in the beautiful miniature paintings if you don't know the language.

Persia is indeed a fascinating culture... perhaps THE most fascinating culture of the middle-east. I have long been fascinated with Persian/Islamic art, but it has only been recently... as part of a course on Non-Western art... that I have delved into it a bit deeper. The Persian Empire was one of the greatest empires of the ancient world. It outlasted both the Greek Empire and the Roman. Some major miscalculations, poor leadership, and a direct confrontation with the Byzantine Empire resulted in the collapse of an empire that had lasted more than a millennium. Much of the art and architecture of Persia was destroyed over the ensuing years... first under the Arab/Islamic invasions, and then under the Mongols. Nevertheless, what remains of ancient Persia is quite evocative and exquisite:

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k2...rGatesmall.jpg
The famous "Ishtar Gate"

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k2...fSculpture.jpg
Temple relief sculpture

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k2...ia_capital.jpg
Support column and ornate capital

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k2..._2-238x317.jpg
Ishtar

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k2...guild/0154.jpg
Sculptural fragment of a horse

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k2.../p059pic01.jpg
Bronze portrait bust

Among the most exquisite Persian artistic achievements were their ornate metal works. There is more than ample evidence to prove that the Persians had mastered working in metal on an epic scale:

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k2...hicago_mus.gif

continued...

But the most influential works were their smaller metal objects: plates...

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k2...F193423450.jpg

... serving challises-

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k2...0-2900_BCE.gif

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k2...p049_large.jpg

The ornate patterns and abstracted animal forms were especially influential...

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k2...ndle_Lovre.jpg

... and this influence spread east to the Scythians (themselves of Persian/Iranian stock) and via the the Scythians, Persian innovations in metals spread along the Silk Road to China as well as northward to the Celts... who would take their own interpretation of the Persian love of ornate patterned metalry all the way to Western Europe and as far as Ireland:

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k2...anNecklace.jpg
Scythian Necklace

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k2.../SuttonHoo.jpg
Celtic/Saxon latch

Following the fall of the Persian Empire to the Byzantines, the Islamic Arabs swept into Persia. The Arabs conquest of Persia might be best compared with the Mongol conquest of China. In both instances the greater nation with a grand cultural history was overcome by smaller, nomadic, horse-bound armies of a people who were far less sophisticated... even "crude" in comparison. From the Byzantine Empire, the Persians absorbed the Byzantine use of ceramic tiles and mosaics. From the Arabs, the Persians absorbed Islam. The Arabs, in turn, would absorb most of their art and culture from Persia. Persia housed the great libraries and provided the great poets whose words would spread throughout the Islamic world. Persia would house the great schools of calligraphy, painting, ceramic design, etc... (especially at Tabriz, Herat, and Shiraz). The ornate interweavings of Persia design would be absorbed by Arab/Islamic calligraphers:

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k2...ld/isbook6.gif

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k2...guild/1412.jpg

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k2...uild/koran.jpg

continued...

Contrary to strictures laid down by many Arab/Islamic clerics, Persia never abandoned the concept of figurative art. The painters of Persian miniatures rank among the greatest painters in history, while the finest Persian illuminated manuscripts equal the greatest examples of books arts (the Book of Kells, the Lindesfarne Gospels, the Tres Riches Heures of the Limbourg Brothers, etc...) to be found anywhere:

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k2...hb_6321011.jpg

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k2...ld/1576s-1.jpg

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k2...ad-Yusef-1.jpg

Persian art has been a direct influence upon artists ranging from Ingres and Delacroix through Renoir, Matisse, Chagall, and Paul Klee and on to contemporaries such as Howard Hodgkin, Francesco Clemente (among others). Looking at the spread of artistic forms rooted in Persian culture throughout the realm of Islam (from Eastern Europe, throughout the Middle-East, India, North-Africa, and into Spain, Portugal and Southern France) one cannot help but recognize the fact that Western Culture has been just as profoundly impacted by Persian/Arabic culture as it has been by the Greco/Roman heritage, and Hebrew/Judeo-Christian. It is too bad that the current war in the Middle-East, as well as radical Islam... and the exaggerated responses to radical Islam, results in many never recognizing just how rich a culture there is there to be found.

Great information on Persian art and culture. Thank you, stlukesguild.
And I add some other parts. Besides what stlukesguild mentioned, persian carpet "is an essential part of Persian art and culture. Carpet-weaving is undoubtedly one of the most distinguished manifestations of Persian culture and art, and dates back to ancient Persia. The art of carpet weaving in Iran has its roots in the culture and customs of its people and their instinctive feelings. Weavers mix elegant patterns with a myriad of colors. The Iranian carpet is similar to the Persian garden: full of florae, birds, and beasts."

http://www.therugs.com/
http://www.persiancarpethouse.com/
http://www.orgtx.com

Tabriz Floral Medallion
http://www.therugs.com/images/CPEL/M...edalion100.jpg

http://www.spongobongo.com/em/Bij9750a.jpg

Persian Miniature

Farshchian, Morning star. I love this miniature.

http://sofia82.persiangig.ir/image/morningstarPU.jpg


http://www.blindowl.org/min.gif


http://negareha.net/arts/farahnaz/Mi.../images/6b.jpg

http://www.persianpaintings.com/imag.../aliaqami1.jpg

http://sofia82.persiangig.ir/image/p..._miniature.jpg

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Originally Posted by Antiquarian

It is good advice if one's young enough to be able to indulge in it and smart enough to do it while they can.

I think it's great when families learn a language together. More of them should.

I also like the idea of audiobooks, but personally, I've never been able to get into most of them. I did like A Christmas Carol and few others as audiobooks, though.

I was married when I traveled, but my ex-husband had a lot of moolah. LOL And being centrally located in Switzerland was nice. Now, though, I'm more interested in establishing a home, but I don't regret any of the traveling I did and consider myself lucky to have done so much and seen the better part of the world. All continents but Antarctica, and I don't mind skipping that one.

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I really dream of traveling around the world. It must be a great experience seeing people, countries, sceneries. But no experience :bawling:

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Originally Posted by Antiquarian

I loved it when I did it, but right now, I'm very focused on a home and settling down.

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But for me no home, no settlling down, and no traveling :D

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Originally Posted by sofia82

But for me no home, no settlling down, and no traveling :D

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To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield!
Funny how all conversations of travel always lead me to Tennyson's Ulysses.


For those who have not yet read it,
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Ulysses_%28Tennyson%29
This is perhaps the most perfect poem for memorization, as it has some of the greatest moments of English literature in its scope.


As for me, I plan to travel when I can, but I am on a student budget, and, unless I can secure work in a foreign country before I leave my home, will not venture out there without a full wallet.

I was quite blessed in my youth to visit many countries (I even got as far as Bali Indonesia, and Laos on one of my trips) and have seen many things. The one strange thing is though, no matter how versed in a language one is, in the majority of places I have gone, locals will always resort to English rather than listen to a foreign accent. I am fluent perfectly in Hebrew, yet in Israel
as soon as I utter one syllable, English enters the conversation.

That being said, language learning is essential for really enjoying the arts. Unfortunately, for the most part the arts are limited to the rich, though thanks to photography and film one can see more by standing still, and for nothing. It is a real shame however, that unlike Europe, the U.S. and Canadian mindset seems to be off of language learning, and geared more towards social sciences and sciences. Perhaps the cost of language learning though is the real problem, being that unless the school is quite large, most languages will not be taught, and outside of school lessons are always expensive. Universities provide excellent options for diverse learnings, multiple languages included, however time and money seem a problem there too.

I guess than one must really know where they wish to end up when they choose which languages to study, and which not to. That being said, map out the next 20 years of your language learning life before embarking on learning a language.

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Originally Posted by Antiquarian

LOL I already speak German, Yiddish, and some French, and can get by in halting Spanish and Italian. Can read Russian and speak a little.

But I'm allergic to shellfish, though not to "regular" fish, and I'm afraid a life on the high seas wouldn't be for me, though I do love the ocean and find it very tranquil. Well, most of the time.

I am thinking of getting that canoe, though. :)

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You could put into German, French, Yiddish, Italian, and English speaking ports. French and English would cover most of Africa and Asia. Far out at sea there aren't many storms, but there are plenty of fish but no places to spend money. Just the amount you saved in a year would pay for the boat. The canoe would come in handy for landing on uninhabited islands.

All you youngsters (I will be reaching the end of my 30s soon, so I don't count anymore), try to do some volunteer work abroad. This is a unique and most effective way of learning a new culture and language. Try teaching English Literature abroad, come to England and teach literature here. It will open your eyes. The thing is unimaginably different from anywhere else. Resistance to learning other languages is a disease of all English-speaking nations, not just the US or Canada. We think we don't need another language. My English-speaking wife laughed when I first brought the primers of French language for my kids. Now she is the only one in the household who can't speak that language!

It is a manifestation of the spirit of adventure, learning new language requires, hard and sustained effort, self-discipline and perseverance. It is like an odyssey with its own perils and pitfalls, despair being the biggest one among them.

Thanks stlukesguild and Sofia for your comprehensive and highly informative replies. Only if there was some way of explaining the Persian poetry. Khayyam's Rubaiyat are just not what we see in English translation, they are more, much more. Khayyam is considered a major astronomer and mathematician and not a major poet in is home-country. This should give an idea of the people with whom he is competing for that title.

Edit:
Teaching/ Learning English Literature in England might not teach a new language but the concept of the 'canon' is so different here that it might give some a cultural shock.

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Originally Posted by Kafka's Crow

All you youngsters (I will be reaching the end of my 30s soon, so I don't count anymore), try to do some volunteer work abroad. This is a unique and most effective way of learning a new culture and language. Try teaching English Literature abroad, come to England and teach literature here. It will open your eyes. The thing is unimaginably different from anywhere else. Resistance to learning other languages is a disease of all English-speaking nations, not just the US or Canada. We think we don't need another language. My English-speaking wife laughed when I first brought the primers of French language for my kids. Now she is the only one in the household who can't speak that language!

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Really, It is interesting that English speakers think like this!
Volunteer work is great idea! I never thought about it.

Quote:

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Thanks stlukesguild and Sofia for your comprehensive and highly informative replies. Only if there was some way of explaining the Persian poetry. Khayyam's Rubaiyat are just not what we see in English translation, they are more, much more. Khayyam is considered a major astronomer and mathematician and not a major poet in is home-country. This should give an idea of the people with whom he is competing for that title.

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You're welcome! About Khayyam,

"He is best known for his poetry, and outside Iran, for the quatrains (rubaiyaas) in Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam, popularized through Edward Fitzgerald's re-created translation. His substantial mathematical contributions include his Treatise on Demonstration of Problems of Algebra, which gives a geometric method for solving cubic equations by intersecting a hyperbola with a circle[2]. He also contributed to calendar reform and may have proposed a heliocentric theory well before Copernicus.

Omar Khayyám's poetic work has eclipsed his fame as a mathematician and scientist.

He is believed to have written about a thousand four-line verses or quatrains (rubaai's). In the English-speaking world, he was introduced through the The Rubáiyát of Omar Khayyám which are rather free-wheeling English translations by Edward Fitzgerald (1809-1883).

Other translations of parts of the rubáiyát (rubáiyát meaning "quatrains") exist, but Fitzgerald's are the most well known. Translations also exist in languages other than English.

Ironically, Fitzgerald's translations reintroduced Khayyam to Iranians "who had long ignored the Neishapouri poet." A 1934 book by one of Iran's most prominent writers, Sadeq Hedayat, Songs of Khayyam, (Taranehha-ye Khayyam) is said have "shaped the way a generation of Iranians viewed" the poet.[9]

Omar Khayyam's personal beliefs are not known with certainty, but much is discernible from his poetic oeuvre.

Although he was ignored to some extent, he is famous all over the Iran for his Four-line verses. But the theme of his peotry is against popular religious beliefs. It rejects some religious beliefs, so some poeple do not consider him as a great poet. But there is more than this anti-religious theme. And he is famous for the theme of Carpe Diem, too.

خيام اگر ز باده مستى خوش باش

با ماه رخى اگر نشستى خوش باش

چون عاقبت كار جهان نيستى است

انگار كه نيستى، چو هستى خوش باش

which translates in Fitzgerald's work as:

And if the Wine you drink, the Lip you press,

End in the Nothing all Things end in — Yes —

Then fancy while Thou art, Thou art but what

Thou shalt be — Nothing — Thou shalt not be less.

A more literal translation could read:

If with wine you are drunk be happy,

If seated with a moon-faced (beautiful), be happy,

Since the end purpose of the universe is nothing-ness;

Hence picture your nothing-ness, then while you are, be happy!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubaiyat_of_Omar_Khayyam

Yes Khayyam had highly controversial views, his reputation was revived only recently. It was mainly his astrology and maths (Algebra) that kept him in discussions till the beginning of the last century when Fitzgerald and others brought his poetry to the wider audience. This Sadeq Hedayat is the one who wrote Boof-e koor (The Blind Owl). I read that book recently and recommend it repeatedly on this forum:
http://www.angelfire.com/rnb/bashiri.../blindowl.html

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Originally Posted by Kafka's Crow

Yes Khayyam had highly controversial views, his reputation was revived only recently. It was mainly his astrology and maths (Algebra) that kept him in discussions till the beginning of the last century when Fitzgerald and others brought his poetry to the wider audience. This Sadeq Hedayat is the one who wrote Boof-e koor (The Blind Owl). I read that book recently and recommend it repeatedly on this forum:
http://www.angelfire.com/rnb/bashiri.../blindowl.html

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Kafka's Crow, it seems you have lots of information about persian literature. It is interesting for me!

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Originally Posted by sofia82

Kafka's Crow, it seems you have lots of information about persian literature. It is interesting for me!

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I stopped studying Persian Lit back in 1987. It has been English Literature ever since. My teacher was Irani and I can still speak with his accent which amazes my Afghan colleagues at work! After all these years, I have come to the conclusion that Persian language has the best treasure of poetry. Unfortunately its effect can't be translated into English Language. I had a bilingual anthology of Modern Persian Poetry as well. Last time I saw it was in my sister's library. I didn't ask her to return it. She can keep it!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kafka's Crow

I stopped studying Persian Lit back in 1987. It has been English Literature ever since. My teacher was Irani and I can still speak with his accent which amazes my Afghan colleagues at work! After all these years, I have come to the conclusion that Persian language has the best treasure of poetry. Unfortunately its effect can't be translated into English Language. I had a bilingual anthology of Modern Persian Poetry as well. Last time I saw it was in my sister's library. I didn't ask her to return it. She can keep it!

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WOW! I was just 5. It is really amazing, it even amazes me.
Yes, unfortunately, it is not translatable into English. It is the same problem when one translates English into Persian, too. IN both cases, it becomes totally another poetry.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kafka's Crow

I stopped studying Persian Lit back in 1987. It has been English Literature ever since. My teacher was Irani and I can still speak with his accent which amazes my Afghan colleagues at work! After all these years, I have come to the conclusion that Persian language has the best treasure of poetry. Unfortunately its effect can't be translated into English Language. I had a bilingual anthology of Modern Persian Poetry as well. Last time I saw it was in my sister's library. I didn't ask her to return it. She can keep it!

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WOW! I was just 5. It is really amazing, it even amazes me.
Yes, unfortunately, it is not translatable into English. It is the same problem when one translates English into Persian, too. IN both cases, it becomes totally another poetry. I'm so curious to talk to you in Persian ;)

Does anyone think that a translation of Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam into Sanskrit, rather than english, might be closer in context?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sofia82

WOW! I was just 5. It is really amazing, it even amazes me.
Yes, unfortunately, it is not translatable into English. It is the same problem when one translates English into Persian, too. IN both cases, it becomes totally another poetry. I'm so curious to talk to you in Persian ;)

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Tres interesante! My Persian is very, very rusty after all those years. I can read and understand but vocabulary is largely gone when it comes to speaking. I know quite a bit of poetry and proverbs by heart which helps when it comes to impressing people (khrs der koh bu Ali Sina!). I can get it back within a few weeks if I try and I WILL try very soon. My 'Parisian' is much better than my Persian these days!

Please don't make me feel so old! It was only yesterday when I was in my late twenties, simultaneously loving Rage Against the Machine, Samuel Beckett, Dostoevsky and motorcycles! Time flies.

Nick Adams!
I don't know much about Sansikrit. The language of Hindu scriptures that I have heard is very, very different from Persian. Urdu is much closer as it stems from Persian and its literature is rooted in Persian Literature. Most other languages from the sub-continent are more closely related to Sansikrit. But then Sansikrit itself is related to most languages. Still its sound pattern is very different from Persian. There is only one word to describe the sound of the Persian words shireen, sweet, absolutely sweet.

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Originally Posted by Kafka's Crow

Nick Adams!
I don't know much about Sansikrit. The language of Hindu scriptures that I have heard is very, very different from Persian. Urdu is much closer as it stems from Persian and its literature is rooted in Persian Literature. Most other languages from the sub-continent are more closely related to Sansikrit. But then Sansikrit itself is related to most languages. Still its sound pattern is very different from Persian. There is only one word to describe the sound of the Persian words shireen, sweet, absolutely sweet.

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Is this a full list of the Alefba?

http://www.easypersian.com/W1/alefba.gif

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kafka's Crow

Tres interesante! My Persian is very, very rusty after all those years. I can read and understand but vocabulary is largely gone when it comes to speaking. I know quite a bit of poetry and proverbs by heart which helps when it comes to impressing people (khrs der koh bu Ali Sina!). I can get it back within a few weeks if I try and I WILL try very soon. My 'Parisian' is much better than my Persian these days!

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Yes, using and repeating is the matter in language.

Quote:

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Please don't make me feel so old! It was only yesterday when I was in my late twenties, simultaneously loving Rage Against the Machine, Samuel Beckett, Dostoevsky and motorcycles! Time flies.

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Do not feel so old! ;) The age is not important how you feel and what you feel is important.
Mohem ineke delet javoon bashe (in persian)

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Nick Adams!
I don't know much about Sansikrit. The language of Hindu scriptures that I have heard is very, very different from Persian. Urdu is much closer as it stems from Persian and its literature is rooted in Persian Literature. Most other languages from the sub-continent are more closely related to Sansikrit. But then Sansikrit itself is related to most languages. Still its sound pattern is very different from Persian. There is only one word to describe the sound of the Persian words shireen, sweet, absolutely sweet.

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Absolutely sweet. Me neither. I do not know anything about Sanskirit.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NickAdams

Is this a full list of the Alefba?

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Yes, exactly.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NickAdams

Is this a full list of the Alefba?

http://www.easypersian.com/W1/alefba.gif

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Queston now, at first glance I thought that was arabic, but it isnt but is the black or the pink persian?:confused:

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Originally Posted by Nightshade

Queston now, at first glance I thought that was arabic, but it isnt but is the black or the pink persian?:confused:

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Our letters are the same except four, which arabs does not have. It is interesting that although our alphabet is the same, but the root is different as I know. Even the original alphabet of Azeri and turkish are like this before changing into Latin. The alphabet we use for Azeri in Iran is these alphabet, fortunately it is not replaced with latin alphabet, although it is really difficult for reading. I myself cannot read just talk Azeri. No, all of them are persian letters but some in capital and some in small letters. or different form of writing depending on where they are placed in a word.

These letters are not in Arabic alphabet.

http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/k...an/Persian.jpg


And about these red and black letters, let me explain by some examples.

http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/k...ian/friend.jpg

This word means friend. Look at the red letter. If /sin/ comes in the middle, it is written in small letter (I don't know if I can call it small or not). But look at this word, which means diamond:

http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/k...an/diamond.jpg

If /sin/ comes in the end, it is written like this.

Now compare others, still confused?!

Book.
http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/k...rsian/book.jpg

English
http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/k...an/english.jpg

Flower
http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/k...ian/flower.jpg

Literature
http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/k...rsian/lite.jpg

Love
http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/k...rsian/love.jpg

Sky
http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/k...sian/sky-1.jpg

Ah I see of course! I didn't even notice that they were showing the diffrent ways of writing the letters they just looked like the letters to me.
So they have different roots? I didn't know that, but arabic has a letter you dont have, hamza, its the last letter.
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m...rabicalph1.jpg
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m...rabicalph2.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nightshade

Ah I see of course! I didn't even notice that they were showing the diffrent ways of writing the letters they just looked like the letters to me.
So they have different roots? I didn't know that, but arabic has a letter you dont have, hamza, its the last letter.
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m...rabicalph1.jpg
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m...rabicalph2.jpg

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Yes, in the alphabet we dont have hamze, but in writing especially those words borrowed from Arabic we use it. Although we changed it to ye nowadays, as the words seem more persian than Arabic. Do you know because of the religion Arabic had great impact on Persian language, although it is tried to make it more persian than Arabic.

And we dont have he with : pronounced te if not mistaken. instead we use he.

And this is exactly how the letters written in different places in Persian, too.
I correct myself of saying small or capital letter. It is beginning, middle, final, and stand-alone.

ah you mean the te marbootah I remeber once when I was little trying to read something that was written on a picture which I thought was arabic and getting really mad because it didn't make sense... turned out it was persian.
do you have the differnt sounds for each letter too? Like if it is followed by a yeh, alif,or wow...or depending on the tashkeel?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nightshade

ah you mean the te marbootah I remeber once when I was little trying to read something that was written on a picture which I thought was arabic and getting really mad because it didn't make sense... turned out it was persian.
do you have the differnt sounds for each letter too? Like if it is followed by a yeh, alif,or wow...or depending on the tashkeel?

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Yes different sound for the same letters. Oh, it really is difficult for me to pronounce the words exactly like Arabs, we don't have such pronunciation, especially reading Quran. For example different t sounds.
About your question can you make an example, I didn't get what you mean by Tashkeel and you mwan te marbootah with different pronunciation.

We have proper Arabic names in Farsi which we do not pronunce this teh marboote any way like Fatemeh just he not te.