Hi Grace, Here I am as promised ;) . Don't be a bit sorry. I find your post very observant and I like the way your zeroed in on the crux of the story - the 'human' aspects. Afterall, this is a story about human-beings and not puppets.
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Originally Posted by
grace86
I finished Fathers and Sons a little late it seems, but I will post my thoughts anyway.
I finished up a little before you, and I felt that last page really struck a cord with me, as I closed the book...I kind of sighed.... The last paragraph or so was so poignant, meaningful to me. I will discuss this later on, and we can both post our separate translations, of that section, as we compared them last night directly. Dori, I believe, has the same translation as I do, so he might add a comment or two. I will ask him to personally. I know he liked the book exceedingly.
Grace, using the words 'a little late' is truly meaningless, I believe. I think that one can never finish up too late on these discussions. All of the threads stay open forever, so you can comment any time. I feel good that the system here alows for that, because sometimes, even months after reading of a particular story or book, a really good thought will come to you that relates back to a certain part of that text. So, I say, why not pop-in, revive the thread and comment? It is surprising how more people might surface to comment on your comment. I often check old threads, and sometimes they do surface again and even revive. I like to think they are like a book one can once again open and read parts from.
How did you like the book, Grace? This was my second reading and I enjoyed it very much and I think I understood parts much better this second time around.
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I don't think that just because someone claims himself a nihilist makes him one, someone mentioned this earlier (sorry I am not going back to reread the posts). Bazarov didn't seem really convinced of it himself either...especially when he fell subject to human emotions and ideas that didn't fit his ideals...it made him angry and ultimately unhappy. When he confessed to Odintsova that he loved her and shook so terribly he was torturing himself for ideas it seemed he knew he didn't believe in himself. To me it was like Bazarov thought that so much change could happen by having this nihilistic outlook, when really he kept himself where he was at in life and never advanced because he wouldn't allow himself to express how he felt...maybe in some sense I think he was trying to take everything human out of being human. I felt sorry for him because I'm not sure how well he was succeeding.
I agree whole-heartedly with your thought here about the political confictions in the book. I don't think that Bazarov was completely convinced, he surely thought he was until real human emotion and love came suddenly into his existence. I think he also showed much wavering in his beliefs as he was dying. He tried hard to stick to his new beliefs but did not family win out in the end? He could not divorce himself entirely from his parent's love. He really did not advance, because as you said ' he wouldn't allow himself to express how he felt and maybe in some sense I think he was trying to take everything human out of being human' - that is an interesting way of putting that. I think he did try too hard to be above human or detached from being merely 'human'. Even though he made friends with the lower classes, peasants easily - was he really in close contact with them? The true intimacies of his life he could not achieve. Even his close, or so-called close friendship with Arkady, he could not maintain, when he, Bazarov, himself, cut him off as a friend. Bazarov was quite forlorn and alone and very sad to me. His isolation was self-imposed and yet when he met his match in emotional matters - Odintsova - he, by contrast in his change of heart, could see himself, as in a mirror, into this woman, I believe. She was the epitomy of the isolated human being, with full control over her emotions, heart....but was she(?)...apparently so by the ending of the novel and her marriage to a rich man. In fact, did she not try to control her sister also and keep her from happiness and true human intimacy? I don't believe that the author intended to have Bazarov succeed because this mirrors what finally did happen in Russia in history. I think the author definitely was imparting a very basic lession here that we, as humans, cannot divorce ourselves from our emotional self.
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How often do we hear a good idea (like Arkady) and try to adhere to it only to find that it never makes us happy?
Exactly. Many young people are attracted by anything that appears to us as new and inovative. We naturally reject what our parents had and how they lived in an old-fashioned backward vane. That is fine, but when we lose site of the whole core of the human race, then we also lose our perspective. I think that Bazarov only knew how to reject the old ways and he had it right in thinking of advances in science and physics, but he lost sight of the simplicity of life and the ties that bind all of us. He thought to reject everything - family, love, etc...but to replace these things he had no solution or suggestion which ultimately would leave nothing but a void. If you read some of the passage - often ending paragraphs or chapter mention a void or a 'precipice'. I found this to be quite interesting and perhaps prophetic of the ending of the story.
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It was really interesting for me to read this novel at this point in my life, because as I was reading of Bazarov and Arkady leaving university for the winter to see their families, I too was going home from university to visit my family.
That is incredible...when one can directly relate a story and how a character feels to ones life. I think this book is a very universal story and I agree with you about the family aspects of the novel, in your follow observations.
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In the novel when Arkady was at the table and there was that narration and Turgenev's thoughts on youth and the wine...it was uncanny how I understood how Arkady felt when addressing his dad as "father" and how to outside society he was recognized as someone different (or an adult) where at home he would always be recognized as a child in some respect (don't we all stay children in our parents' eyes?)
Yes, parents never don't think of the child/adult as the child - the one they knew from a tiny helpless baby. Memory is a very strong thing. Being both a mother, myself, and a daughter, I know just how true this can be and I understand it completely. Here again, in this story, is a very 'universal' idea and though.
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Okay, this might seem a little odd, but how many people (or am I the only one) laughed when they read the part where Bazarov and Pavel are duelling? It seemed comical because both parties claimed to be there because they hated each other - because of the ideas the other party possessed. (Or was it because of Fenechka?? ;) ) It was a nice place for Turgenev to show us the contrast of the different generations though.
First time I read the dual scene I laughed right out loud. I thought it totally amusing. I sometimes think the funniest things in life are things that happen ordinarily and this whole passage was written with such wit and understanding. I like the idea of Baz contemplating his own demise the night before and yet his going along with such a old-fashioned idea such as dueling. I thought he might be killed the first time I read this book and got to this part, so when it did not happen I was quite relieved and laughed out loud. I thought a terrible humorous line was something like 'I am a doctor, not a duelist.' I will try to look up the exact quote. Anyone know what chapter the duel took place? I also liked when Baz said he knew he lived when he heart the bullet wiz by his ear....I found that somehow funny, maybe since I was relieve to know he still lived. It is funny, but this one showdown scene between Bazarov and Pavel seems to bring them together on a different plane. I don't say they become close but it strikes some sort of tolerance between them when they both face ulitmate death and live. It is a highly intreresting scene to me from different aspects.
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Sorry all my thoughts are mashed up, but it is late and I just finished the novel so I thought I would throw my opinion out there. Again, sorry if I am repeating already past conversation.
No, Grace, I don't think your thoughts were 'mashed up' at all, and you are quite observant, sensitive to the story and characters and you brought out some very good basic points to the novel. Thanks for posting!:thumbs_up I don't see where you are repeating yourself either. Post some more, if you have time; I would be interested in your further thoughts on the novel.
I loved the novel!:thumbs_up
