Well, I'm not going to push it, but this story does seem to me to be the inverse of a typical 19th century feminist work.
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Well, I'm not going to push it, but this story does seem to me to be the inverse of a typical 19th century feminist work.
Virgil - ok, that is good; now what do you have to back that statement up with? Can you explain better or site specifically why you feel that way? What, in your opinion, is a typical 19th century feminist work?Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Janine, I thought I was fairly clear in my original post on this. What I mean is that it is typically a female character who is trapped by her social circumstances and is unable to follow her heart. Or if she does follow her heart, it's at a great expense in reputation or stature. Here it is Ethan, a male character, who is put into this conundrum.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
I think Zeena knew what she wanted and went for it; she wanted Mattie out of their house and life. In the grand scheme of things, Mattie and Ethan being alone one night does not matter much really.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
This is all true; however, in my opinion, what makes Ethan a hard-to-sympathise-with-character is not only the fact that he is not leaving his wife for Mattie. The fact that it does not occur to him is very off-putting. It seems like Ethan does not realise (or does not want to?) the consequences of the feelings he entertains towards Mattie. What is more, he, very slyly, plans how he can stay alone with Mattie over night and lies to Zeena not to give her a lift. If I remember correctly, during the night they were alone at home, it was Mattie who actually stops things from 'getting out of hand'; Ethan, in my opinion, would have carried on without a consideration for Zeena or Mattie.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
I was thinking that Ethan's inability to commit to anything is even apparent in his so-called suicide attempt with Mattie. He seems to change his mind in the last minute causing a life time of suffering for them all (I don't wish anyone death but he should have either gone ahead with the plan or said 'no' from the start, in my opinion).Ethan is an isolated character, isn't he? He doesn't seem to have friends and does not mix with the town folks either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Amen to that, sista! ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by SleepyWitch
Virgil, ok, I think I understand. Sorry, I guess I am just tired. Yes, true the man cannot follow his heart this time in this story. In Hardy some of his male characters were the same such as Giles in "Woodlanders". Actually he and Grace were hemmed in to the system. Giles, like Ethan, was resigned to his low station and shunned position in life. Also, it might be that I don't totally understand all the ramifications of feminist literature.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
haha got the book yesterday will start it in tea break at work :D
Ok, I finally read through all the posts.
I don't see this as anti-feminist at all, even though the 2 main women weren't the best examples - one a hypochondriac wrapped up in her own problems and the other a young lady without any any other options. These two characters were written like real people, Wharton could have easily made them into characatures.Quote:
But Wharton has almost the inverse, a male trapped by social convention, unexpressible passion, and domestic drudgery. So is Wharton being anti-feminist? If we have sympathy for those female characters of the other women writers, why shouldn't we have sympathy for Ethan?
I don't have sympathy for Ethan. He was not stuck by the constraints of society in the least. As a man in that time period he could have gone anywhere and gotten a job doing anything with out any questions asked. Women did not have that same luxury, they were expected to be wives.
As for the Narrator - Ethan connection, I think Ethan sees what he could have been. Ethan could have been the guy living at the hotel, reading those books, catching the train to work.
I idea of isolation throughout the book. If I remember correctly I don't think Ethan was ever really part of the town. He was always so stand off-ish. For example, when he picked up Mattie from that dance, why look through the window? Why not go in? Everybody knew he picked her up after each dance. - Ohh, yet again an instance of Ethan's inertia. Perhaps that's the life Ethan wants - dances, parties, being part of the town, (that's the life the narrator has) but he can't bring himself to go in.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
My interpretation is that Wharton's intention was to make her readers understand that the narrator does not gather the whole story from Ethan himself - especially in the beginning - but rather he gleans unsatisfactory bits and pieces of it from the various inhabitants of the town. In the frame chapter the narrator says of one of his contacts, "Though Harmon Gow developed the tale as far as his mental and moral reach permitted there were perceptible gaps between his facts, and I had the sense that the deeper meaning of the story was in the gaps."
And as for his landlady, Mrs Hale: "...but on the subject of Ethan Frome I found her unexpectedly reticent ... I merely felt in her an insurmountable reluctance to speak of him or his affairs..."
I agree with you bouquin. The only problem I have is that the narrator gets well into Ethan's emotions and only Ethan could have told him. It does strike one as contrived.
What I find intriguing and I keep wondering about is what happened that night when the narrator stayed at the Frome farm????? Did Ethan tell him the story? I can't really believe that is the case, Ethan seems too Tacturn. Did he get tidbits from Zeena and/or Mattie? That to means seems more likely. I get the feeling that both Zeena and Mattie would take this oppotunity to complain/talk to a new set of ears.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
I've had those exact same thoughts. I assume that Ethan took a liking to the engineer and spilled his guts. But he does seem tactiturn.Quote:
Originally Posted by papayahed
Well Ive read up to chapter 5 solidly and then skim read the rest ( Ill probably read another couple of chapters properly tonight)
I thought wuthering heights at the beginig, and I did also think the narrator might be a woman. . Up till chapter 5 I do kind of like Zeneeba but I know when I read a head Im about to change my min then change back again.
Now as to the Hypocondriac an illness, my grandmother was always always ill and because she didnt have anything to do she just had time to think about how ill she was and it got worse. Then my uncle opened a buisness set her as manger and she was great for years...shes now very sick again and thats life.
So I think zeeba was okay whenever 'the call' came to her because she had to think of somthing else.
On the Ethan Frome favorites thread, someone called Mattie brainless, and Sleepywitch said we don't really know how intelligent she is. I've been wanting to put this out there but was waiting for the right time. Perhaps now is the right time.
A motif that seems to run through the book is a distinction on whether the characters are "smart." In the Introduction (I keep calling it a Preface because that's what my edition called it, but I see Introduction elsewhere) we have several instances:
Quote:
Harmon drew a slab of tobacco from his pocket, cut off a wedge and pressed it into the leather pouch of his cheek. "Guess he's been in Starkfield too many winters. Most of the smart ones get away."
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...When I had been there a little longer, and had seen this phase of crystal clearness followed by long stretches of sunless cold; when the storms of February had pitched their white tents about the. devoted village and the wild cavalry of March winds had charged down to their support; I began to understand why Starkfield emerged from its six months' siege like a starved garrison capitulating without quarter. Twenty years earlier the means of resistance must have been far fewer, and the enemy in command of almost all the lines of access between the beleaguered villages; and, considering these things, I felt the sinister force of Harmon's phrase: "Most of the smart ones get away." But if that were the case, how could any combination of obstacles have hindered the flight of a man like Ethan Frome?
In chapter 1, Ethan shows off his learning to Mattie:Quote:
I hoped that this incident might set up some more direct communication between us. Frome was so simple and straightforward that I was sure his curiosity about the book was based on a genuine interest in its subject. Such tastes and acquirements in a man of his condition made the contrast more poignant between his outer situation and his inner needs, and I hoped that the chance of giving expression to the latter might at least unseal his lips...
Then also in chapter 2 Mattie describes herself as not smart:Quote:
"That's Orion down yonder; the big fellow to the right is Aldebaran, and the bunch of little ones- like bees swarming- they're the Pleiades..." or whom he could hold entranced before a ledge of granite thrusting up through the fern while he unrolled the huge panorama of the ice age, and the long dim stretches of succeeding time. The fact that admiration for his learning mingled with Mattie's wonder at what he taught was not the least part of his pleasure. And there were other sensations, less definable but more exquisite, which drew them together with a shock of silent joy: the cold red of sunset behind winter hills, the flight of cloud-flocks over slopes of golden stubble, or the intensely blue shadows of hemlocks on sunlit snow. When she said to him once: "It looks just as if it was painted!" it seemed to Ethan that the art of definition could go no farther, and that words had at last been found to utter his secret soul....
And in chapter 4, Zeena is labeled as "smart":Quote:
Their arms had slipped apart and they stood motionless, each seeking to distinguish the other's face.
"I know I ain't anything like as smart as I ought to be," she went on, while he vainly struggled for expression. "There's lots of things a hired girl could do that come awkward to me still- and I haven't got much strength in my arms. But if she'd only tell me I'd try. You know she hardly ever says anything, and sometimes I can see she ain't suited, and yet I don't know why."
And I could swear, although I didn't jot it down, that Denis Eady is characterized as smart. And I'm sure it comes up in places throughout the novel that i didn't pick up on.Quote:
When they married it was agreed that, as soon as he could straighten out the difficulties resulting from Mrs. Frome's long illness, they would sell the farm and saw-mill and try their luck in a large town. Ethan's love of nature did not take the form of a taste for agriculture. He had always wanted to be an engineer, and to live in towns, where there were lectures and big libraries and "fellows doing things." A slight engineering job in Florida, put in his way during his period of study at Worcester, increased his faith in his ability as well as his eagerness to see the world; and he felt sure that, with a "smart" wife like Zeena, it would not be long before he had made himself a place in it.
Certainly this is a conscious motif that Wharton is employing here. However, I can't quite pin down what she is suggesting. I suspect it has to do with what I called earlier in this thread the modern world versus the old world. But what are people's thoughts on this?
Virgil, Consider it might be in the way the word "smart" is used. It might indicate, in Zeena's, case more of a smart move than her being smart in a full sense of the word. Don't get me wrong, I don't think Zeena lacks being smart - to the contrary - although she has the illness of "hypocondria" -that would not render her dumb or stupid. Many mentally ill people, in fact, are highly intelligent. I just wonder, if when Wharton uses the word "smart", she is not using it in the sense that that is what others perceive them as being. Such as the town would see and accept Zeena as being a smart woman and therefore it a smart move to marry her for Ethan in the town's eyes, whereas Matty, being poor and uneducated would be considered dumb and stupid. She seemed to have other talents, liking to dance and sing, but this seems insignificant to everyone. Perhaps she has her own talents we don't know of in this limited story. This does not make a person dumb because they are not good at one thing, but may make up for it in another aspect or aspects. Agreed she was inefficient at housework and mundane farm duties, but if I was put in her position I would probably be the same way, since my talents lie elseware. Now I don't consider myself dumb because of that fact. Also, being uneducated is not the same as being dim witted or dumb. I see Matty as uneducated and poor and Zeena may have been educated at one time, who knows? Apparently she had more opportunities than Matty did in the past. Matty seemed to be poorer and in a more dire situation than Matty ever was.
Nightshade ,your comments were very good concerning your own grandmother comparison. I also knew a woman like this and she could rally to care for others, when the need presented itself. In this way she did improve for a time, but usually it was not a permanent improvement or cure. These type people are very sad indeed.
To be honest Janine, I don't know what to make of the word, "smart." it does run through the novel, so that one can see that it is a loaded word. By loaded I mean the author by her use has packed more meaning into the word than normal.
And Nightshade's comment about her grandmother were very insightful. I meant to highlight that, but got lost in my posting and then forgot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Here's a description of Mattie in chapter 1:
Mattie had no natural turn for housekeeping, and her training had done nothing to remedy the defect. She was quick to learn, but forgetful and dreamy, and not disposed to take the matter seriously. Ethan had an idea that if she were to marry a man she was fond of the dormant instinct would wake, and her pies and biscuits become the pride of the country; but domesticity in the abstract did not interest her.
I did point out that my grandmother really is very ill, didnt I?
ah well anyway onwards upwards as they say....oh yes read some more on the train and I just thought you know when the pickle dish is broken and Zeena starts crying and says mattie took/broke the most important thing to her...it suddenly occured to me shes talking about her marriage to Ethan isnt she no nessearily the dish.
A case of the straw that broke the camels back??
"She was quick to learn, but forgetful and dreamy, and not disposed to take the matter seriously." Matty sounds like me:lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by bouquin
Nightshade, That is an interesting observation/correlation. I think it does indicate more than just a broken dish - definitely it is quite important and broken and can't be repaired or really replaced. It did symbolise perhaps the ideal that Zeena kept of her marriage (really an illusion) and so she never used the dish - kept it safely on the top shelf of the china cabinet. This would symbolise her attitude to the marriage - keep it hidden away and from harm/safe/ yet inert. Yes, it certainly was like a 'broken marriage' to her eyes and the 'beginning of the end' perhaps or at least the 'major threat'. She could blame it all on Matty that way. It was the straw that broke the camel's back perhaps, but the wheels were in motion before this definitive revelation. Still it defined it to the reader. Yes, very good, Nightshade. I had not thought of it in quite that way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightshade
Oh I also wanted to say that I dont think that the original narrator is the only voice-- that is telling the main story because s/he points out that they dont know what happened and anyway who told them the story. No I think the middle bit is the true story that s/he only hears differant versions of. note how the guy in the beging says somthing that makes it seem like zeena is to blame for everything and Mrs hale thinks zeena takes care of everyone and in a way is the bees knees.
I think the whole smart is just to hammer home the personalities of the three main characters. Zeena - very shrewd and aware, Mattie - young wide-eyed young girl, and Ethan - wasted/missed oppotunity.
Papaya,That's a good thought - it sort of sums it up. Also, smart might be the way in which Wharton summaries the attitudes of society. A smart marriage - I have heard that said before - it does not necessarily mean the marriage partners are smart but that the marriage is practical and a good idea for each. I wondered if Wharton did not mean this very thing when she said a smart wife in Ethan's case, as Virgil has quoted that statement here:Quote:
Originally Posted by papayahed
"A slight engineering job in Florida, put in his way during his period of study at Worcester, increased his faith in his ability as well as his eagerness to see the world; and he felt sure that, with a "smart" wife like Zeena, it would not be long before he had made himself a place in it."
Yes but why characterize people in contradistinction to intelligence. It has the makings of suggestion, and the way it's introduced in the Introduction is definetely to make a point:Quote:
Originally Posted by papayahed
Given that Ethan does not get away, the word carries extra meaning.Quote:
Harmon drew a slab of tobacco from his pocket, cut off a wedge and pressed it into the leather pouch of his cheek. "Guess he's been in Starkfield too many winters. Most of the smart ones get away."
Here's the definition of smart from M-W:
Amazing how even the etomological definition has implication to the novel's story:Quote:
Main Entry: 1smart
Pronunciation: 'smärt
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English smert causing pain, from Old English smeart; akin to Old English smeortan
1 : making one smart : causing a sharp stinging
2 : marked by often sharp forceful activity or vigorous strength <a smart pull of the starter cord>
3 : BRISK, SPIRITED <a smart pace>
4 a : mentally alert : BRIGHT b : KNOWLEDGEABLE c : SHREWD <a smart investment>
5 a : WITTY, CLEVER <a smart sitcom> b : PERT, SAUCY <don't get smart with me>
6 a : NEAT, TRIM <soldiers in smart uniforms> b : stylish or elegant in dress or appearance c (1) : appealing to sophisticated tastes (2) : characteristic of or patronized by fashionable society
7 a : being a guided missile <a laser-guided smart bomb> b : operating by automation <a smart machine tool> c : INTELLIGENT 3
- smart·ly adverb
- smart·ness noun
smart ~ causing a sharp stinging; the climax?
But even still, the intelligence connotation still suggests to me the difference between old world mentality and new world mentality.
Makes total sense what you say. Reminds me of that Simon & Garfunkel song about staying in his room and letting his poetry protect him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Virgil, Interesting definition "sharp stinging"....well Wharton was a satirist, wasn't she in most of her works? So perhaps she is using the word "smart" satirically by using it often and giving it various connotations and deeper meanings or references.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
I especially like definition #4.c the word "Shrewd"- that would describe the manor how Zeena appears smart.
4 a : mentally alert : BRIGHT b : KNOWLEDGEABLE c : SHREWD <a smart investment>
"Given that Ethan does not get away, the word carries extra meaning".
I do agree with this - the contrast in the statement makes this more evident - and the fact that Ethan got left behind and did not get away when he could have.
byquist, Oh, I had to think for a minute what you were referring to - my signature.Quote:
Originally Posted by byquist
Yes, thank you very much. It does remind me of that song, also. It is a great song! S&G are favorites.:thumbs_up
Quote:
Harmon drew a slab of tobacco from his pocket, cut off a wedge and pressed it into the leather pouch of his cheek. "Guess he's been in Starkfield too many winters. Most of the smart ones get away."
Quote:
Given that Ethan does not get away, the word carries extra meaning.
ummm I don't think so. Well maybe, I think he Harmon isn't necessarily talking about the town or the area. I think he's talking about the way of life, as you mentioned before the old world - particularly Ethan and his farm. (Sidenote: What kind of farm did Ethan have? ) I think that sets Ethan appart for everyone as well, which goes back to his social status. By the time the narrator is in town Ethan is like a walking museum. Ethan wasn't "smart" enough / not brave enough to ditch the farm when he had the chance.
There is a definite contrast of old world and new in this story. Wharton herself has said so in commentaries. It is a recurrent theme in many of her works. It is very prominent in EF.
I can see that it was not "smart" for Ethan to stay. but he was trapped by the guilt and duty to Zeena for taking care of his aging, dying parents. How could he leave? He just was too nice a guy to abandon someone that way. I don't know if being nice is being weak, or not brave. I feel someone accepting his duty of husband, like that, in those early days, was not so uncommon and not a sign of being a weak person by doing so. When exactly did he have the chance to leave - before marrying Zeena? You could say that, but the thing is circumstances dictated him staying home and jointly caring for the sick parents. He got used to this being a normal way of life and resigned himself to the duties of the farm and parents care. He got trapped over time not overnight! The "iert" process took time and Zeena was subtle and conniving to get him to marry her, born out of duty and guilt. She really played on his emotions and good nature and he caved in and married her. I don't think he ever loved her one tiny bit. It was all duty and payback. Nor do I think Zeena actually loved Ethan. One could say from the start it was a loveless marriage.
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Originally Posted by Janine
Where does it say that in the book?
I don't think it ever says. And is it my impression, but is everyone else not a farmer? I get the impression Ethan is the only farmer in the whole county. :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by papayahed
I think Ethan is some kind of a lumberjack?
Janine> I don't we are given enough information (if at all) in the story to conclude that Zeena actually actively planned (connivingly or otherwise) to make Ethan marry her.
I'm thinking he's the only poor farmer!Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
As Scher pointed out Ethan is apparently a lumberjack who owns a farm. I don't think farming is his first vocation, dealing in lumber seems to bring in his living.
Yeah, he was delivering logs in one scene. But theyt keep referring to a farm, and he has some run down mill that might not be functional. Not entirely clear to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Well, is it really that important to know specifically about what Ethan does for a living? I get the sense he runs his delapidated farm to sustain himself, Matty and the wife, and then his basic income was cutting trees and selling them - or it could be visa-versa, but it seems from the story he makes the money from the trees. We seem to be getting caught up in this discussion on some trivial details. I don't think that Wharton meant to be specific about these things. She merely gives us clues or a sense of his situation and his work. The important thing here about the farm, mill, house is it's stagnant qualities and dilapidated condition, like Ethan himself. Nothing has progressed since the accident occurred. It was as if time stood still from that moment on.
Perhaps we can go onto other aspects of the story, like how the narrator is affected by the story. He undergos a sort of transformation from the beginning of the book to the end.
Does s/he???
Night - Does s/he??? ...what?
narrortor under go transformation
Well his is maybe not a true transformation, just that the story affects him in various ways, by the end. I was really trying to come up with another aspect of the story to discuss. Any ideas, Night?
I don't see a transformation either, but I think he (narrator is a he to me ;) :p ) is enlightened in some sense. I think he understands the human heart better.
Thanks, Virgil, this is what I was getting at; the idea of a better understanding, on his part, of the "human heart" - good way of putting it! Also a greater compassion for his fellow man.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
I see the narrator as a he, also.
Thought this thread in a bit of a lull. I looked somethings about the book up online and found this study site helpful. May give us some idea on things to discuss. Here's the link:
http://www.gradesaver.com/classicnotes/titles/frome/
I've been torn as to whether the climatic sled crash scene really fit with the novel. That site you posted Janine had an interesting analysis of it:
If Wharton really meant it as symbolic of fate, well I have a problem. Not with the symbol but whether than Ethan had a choice. Yes, he was contrained. But he could have left. He didn't have to commit suicide. He could have put Mattie on the train. He could have brought her back and told Zeena to shut up. He had options. I feel that way and just about everyone discussing here has said similar. I had a problem with the ending from the moment I read it. How is it fatalistic to choose to get into a sled and crash oneself into a tree? It doesn't seem to follow, and yet like that analysis I do believe that's what Wharton intended. And so for me, I have to say, while I thought this was an excellent novel, it doesn't get the ending right.Quote:
The sled ride is a symbol for Wharton's conception of free will and fate, a conception shaped by Naturalism. Although Ethan has some power in steering the sleigh, the track carries them down on the final run. Ethan steers the sled to some extent, but gravity and the shape of the hill drive them down into the elm. Man's freedom exists within a very narrow range of options. In the opening, we already learned that Ethan had a terrible accident, and so the event seems all the more fixed. Wharton has been foreshadowing the accident all along. We also know that Ethan is still going to be alive at the time when the narrator arrives in Starkfield, and so we immediately know that their suicide attempt is going to be unsuccessful. The suicide attempt is the final and most terrible failed plan of Ethan Frome. It caps off a long string of aborted plans and frustrated wishes, and this time the consequences are tragic.