my point exactly. Azmuse, how did you fit my whole post into one sentence?!?!?!
Printable View
my point exactly. Azmuse, how did you fit my whole post into one sentence?!?!?!
There's nothing wrong with them (specially sex ;) ) But I do feel that the other concepts are more elevated, because they're harder to attain.Quote:
Originally posted by atiguhya padma
Crisaor, what's wrong with sex, power and ego? Why do you have to denigrate them? I suppose you think love, faith and hope are elevated above these other human endeavours do you? Well, let me tell you this, without sex you wouldn't be here. Without power, you wouldn't be here and without ego you wouldn't be here. However, it doesn't take love, or faith, or hope for you to be here. Secondly, don't you think that in going around calling people shmucks you slip into that typical self-righteousness associated with your religious belief?
I do try to be self-righteous, and as a matter of fact I believe in a religion that encourages that kind of behaviour, but that doesn't obscure my judgement as to who's an idiot. And you know who are the ones I was referring to.
I don't know if he (or she, or it) exists. Hell, if we're talking straight, as Socrates said, the only thing I know is that I don't know anything. But I don't think that is important. I believe that he exists, and believing it is important in itself. Wether he really exists or not (something we'll never be able to tell for certain, at least not in this life), I'll found out someday, and you'll too.Quote:
Originally posted by atiguhya padma
I don't really understand what you mean here, Crisaor. It does rather sound like you are saying that real existences aren't things to believe in. I assume then, that you agree with me, that God doesn't really exist?
No, I understood you quite fine, that's why I think your theory is lame. You know, that was one of Malthus preferred arguments, and he was a priest. What do you know, you do have things in common with those you attack.Quote:
Originally posted by atiguhya padma
My solution is not for any problem at all. I said it was in relation to the problem of hell. Not having children is an absolute guarantee of not adding to the population of hell. Is that really difficult to understand?
um...i dunno, IWilKikU - ?? - a well-laid foundation, my need to be brief. a growing discomfort with what i was reading.
the semicolon :)
IWilKiku,
I have yet to see a religious argument on this site from Dyrwen. Now I wonder why that is? Could it be, that Dyrwen understands that some people cannot handle religious argument? It is a great shame for dissent to be silenced.
Amuse,
You are too subtle with your cruelty. Bury your head in the sand if you like. I would never willingly ignore someone in the way you do.
One of the reasons why the philosopher Alfred North Whitehead disliked the Bible, was because of its profound lack of humour. It would seem that some aspects of the Bible can become infectious. Do the world a favour, try not to take yourselves so seriously! I mean just look at you, a single solitary voice has organised you all like a pack of wolves, even to the extent that one of you cannot even recognise me anymore, as if I had no human status at all. That is extremely sad. Only a very few people here have made me laugh. Those that have know who they are.
I put in the wrong quote, do you follow now?Quote:
Originally posted by IWilKikU
I'm not sure I follow you Cass.
I think that everyone taking part in this thread has proved that they CAN "handle" an arguement. I already stated why I think we don't see religeous arguement from Dyrwen here. Go back and read my post again until you can grasp what I said.Quote:
Originally posted by atiguhya padma
IWilKiku,
I have yet to see a religious argument on this site from Dyrwen. Now I wonder why that is? Could it be, that Dyrwen understands that some people cannot handle religious argument? It is a great shame for dissent to be silenced.
And by the way, Azmuse/Amuse has you on INGORE! Someone needs to let you know how this works since you obviously don't get it. It means that all that stuff you said about him/her in this post went unheard. All you were doing was talking behind his/her back. Sorry Amuse, I cant remember if your a guy or a girl. :D
So you thought I was addressing Asmuse directly did you? Seems like you didn't get it.
Its called a rhetorical device.
live it. learn it. love it.
IWilKiku,
I'm glad you are back online. Because, I really would like a Christian to answer my question:
<Furthermore, how would you enjoy Heaven, knowing that there are billions of souls suffering endless torture?>
I really am serious. I would like to know how you or any other Christian is preparing to enjoy their eternal life with this kind of knowledge.
Please give me an honest answer. I am asking in all sincerity.
I answered and I'm a Christian. i can't speak for us all obviously just myself.
So your answer, Cassandra, is that you wouldn't be happy in heaven, isn't it? Or did I miss something?
I would be happy in heaven but I would be sad fort hose in Hell, again hard to explain, it's like when someone dies and you're sad their dead but you're happy their in heaven. Have you read the first part of inferno where Virgil says he pities those in hell and where beatrice pities Dante although she's in heaven she is sad for him. Maybe once you're in heaven things change though, I don't know. God's in heaven and he feels sad for us often.
Cassandra,
Don't you think that makes Heaven sound a little bit like Earth?
A little although you're closer to God. Nobody knows what heaven is so it's impossible to say what it is like other than God is there. Earth has some pretty great things as well you know, I don't think that we lose ourselves in heaven, maybe it just helps us become better, but we should still be essentially us so our sympahies would remain the same, if you were in heaven and didn't care maybe that would mean heaven was not perfect, again thinking on screen. Pity seems to me to be a chief virtue. If you're Christian it's one of the things you believe helped save you, Christ's pity for us.
I'm a girl, Kik. No biggy.
There isn't a definite answer to this. Talking about heaven or hell is always somewhat relative, for obvious reasons. I think that if you go to heaven, you would enjot it, because of its own definition. Everything that makes you happy is there. So, one possible scenario is that while you're being happy, you woulldn't care about anything else (and this has happen to me in the past, when I was involved in relationships mostly). Another possibility would be that you're not conscious of it ("igno rance is bliss", as the saying goes). Yet another explanation could be that you know that people are burning in hell, but you don't resent that, because it's their fair punishment for what they did in life (and I do wish for some people to burn in hell, because that would do the justice that hasn't been served on Earth). Also, maybe some of the people in hell don't resent it either, because they prefer that ("better to rule in hell than serve in heaven", as Lucifer said in Paradise Lost). Enduring torment could be desirable for some (no matter how stupid I find that), and others could manage it if that meant that they could inflict pain on others in the future.Quote:
Originally posted by atiguhya padma
Furthermore, how would you enjoy Heaven, knowing that there are billions of souls suffering endless torture?
I really am serious. I would like to know how you or any other Christian is preparing to enjoy their eternal life with this kind of knowledge.
Please give me an honest answer. I am asking in all sincerity.
Again, it's a very debatable topic, and has a lot of possible answers, this is just my 2 cents.
I know what you mean. As I said I think we would get a chance to believe after death so maybe these are really really eveil people or they did not want to be with God.
Either way I still pity them.
I find this statement incredibly offensive:
<Yet another explanation could be that you know that people are burning in hell, but you don't resent that, because it's their fair punishment for what they did in life (and I do wish for some people to burn in hell, because that would do the justice that hasn't been served on Earth).>
Fayefaye thought I was horrible for comparing the actions of Stalin and Hitler to some of God's actions. Yet the burning of people in Auschwitz, in the act itself, is, as an act, incomparable to eternal burning of a human being. Forever suffering 1st degree burns is fair punishment???? For what? What could possibly deserve this? And this is something you wish for Crisaor!! You are inhuman. Why don't you burn a few people who deserve it here on earth? Why wait til they get to hell. I guess you would have been one of those Christians celebrating at the burning of the witches during the inquisition.
And now what's going to happen? IWilKiku, are you going to castigate me for daring to declare how Crisaor's views disgust me? Or are you going to say that it is permissable for someone to profess their desire that people suffer the pains of melting flesh without end?
You are unbelievable Crisaor. Just unbelievable. This is why I find it so difficult to respect all beliefs. Because some people, like you, harbour the most dark and atrocious desires. I can have no faith in a profession of belief that can engender this kind of inhumanity.
Not critising either's views but isn't inhumanity is often because of the person not the belief system.
Cassandra,
My last statement was made with regard to Crisaor's personal belief, not with regard to Christianity in general. Although I can quite understand how it could be seen otherwise.
I have not yet found a Christian belief system that I could agree with or respect enough to adopt. I find more negatives in Christian thought than would suit my personal beliefs. Likewise, I see no reason to raise Christian belief above any other religious belief. Atheism, for me, is the most honest of beliefs about religion.
For now, I will have to disconnect from this site, as the night is drawing on.
Atiguhya Padma
I've heard the observation before from protestants that, in accordance with biblical creed, hitler himself might be in heaven.
though, I'm convinced he was an atheist (at best), I still think it's really awful that someone like him could make it to heaven while a jew or a muslim couldn't. morally, I just can't accept that.
went over this 'hell' thing before.Quote:
Originally posted by atiguhya padma
Fayefaye thought I was horrible for comparing the actions of Stalin and Hitler to some of God's actions. Yet the burning of people in Auschwitz, in the act itself, is, as an act, incomparable to eternal burning of a human being. Forever suffering 1st degree burns is fair punishment???? For what? What could possibly deserve this?
Today I had a terrible today. Tomorrow will be better. I don't know that to be true, but I believe it. that is what I mean by a belief in the greater good. Believing in a better tomorrow, or that people in the world are basically good, that there is a God looking out for us. A meaning to life. A meaning for me to get out of bed tomorrow rather than curl up into the foetal position and die.Quote:
Originally posted by atiguhya padma
[B]greater meaning? greater good?
Faith, love, hope is a reference to a part of Corinthians. 'These three remain, faith, love hope. But the greatest of these is love' Something like that. If you're held together by sex, power and ego you gotta be a pretty screwed up person.Quote:
I would say you have missed some essential elements that hold us together in your list. Try sex, power, ego, knowledge. These things hold us together too you know. Or do you consider them less worthy than love, faith, hope (btw this little list of yours does sound so Pauline, and old hat, sorry IWilKikU, but it does!).
Says you with the pretty screwed up attitude towards other people. Says you that defends the idea of forever burning people. You sound extremely screwed up.
AHHH! I had a lousy day! I can't write properly now, leave me be. I DON'T defend it, that's my point. That hell isn't eternal fire. That it's a place without God. THAT'S MY POINT. [didn't mean you were screwed up]
*sigh* didn't clarify my point properly anyway... forget about it.
Fayefaye,
Sorry you had a terrible day. I'm sure things will eventually get better:)
I don't see why Muslims, Jews or anyone can't go to heaven, especially jews before christ, how were they supposed to know?! I suppose if Hitler really repented he might go to Heaven but I personally can't see it happening. It could God works miracles but one more naturally thinks of Hitler trying to send God down for being the originator of Jewish faith or something.Quote:
Originally posted by the ring
I've heard the observation before from protestants that, in accordance with biblical creed, hitler himself might be in heaven.
though, I'm convinced he was an atheist (at best), I still think it's really awful that someone like him could make it to heaven while a jew or a muslim couldn't. morally, I just can't accept that.
Precisely.Quote:
Originally posted by fayefaye
AHHH! I had a lousy day! I can't write properly now, leave me be. I DON'T defend it, that's my point. That hell isn't eternal fire. That it's a place without God. THAT'S MY POINT. [didn't mean you were screwed up]
OK. First of all, there are two pages of posts on this thread that I havn't read yet. I just wanted to respond to this question before I got sidetracked, so I may be repeating someone.Quote:
Originally posted by atiguhya padma
IWilKiku,
<Furthermore, how would you enjoy Heaven, knowing that there are billions of souls suffering endless torture?>
I really am serious. I would like to know how you or any other Christian is preparing to enjoy their eternal life with this kind of knowledge.
I am Christian, from time to time :confused: :confused: however, most prodestant denomanations, including mine, do not believe in a literal hell. In fact if you look at the original Greek and Hebrew, the bible doesn't even use the word "hell" or any word that has the concept of eternal suffering. The idea of hell came from a verse in Rev. Where John says something about the Devil being cast into a lake of fire with all his minions to suffer eternally. People quote this out of context all the time. He was describing what he saw in his vision. He also saw beasts coming out of the sea and brainwashing people, but no one believes that that is literally going to happen. The translaters of the KJV put "Hell" in for lack of a better word. The Greek word is actually more like "Nothing, or Void" but a void that only the dead exist in. The translater's "Hell" came from the Greek "Hades" which does not appear in the Greek New Testament. He was also bitten by a deadly poisonous snake before dictating this book to his scribe. He was dying and could have just been hallucinating (I mentioned this in a religeon class and was nearly burnt at the stake as a heratic :eek: ). You'll have to ask someone who believes in a literal hell, ie. Roman Catholic, Anglican, or Orthodox. But most prodestants don't buy it.
I'm sorry you felt offended, but now you know how I felt with some of your posts, too. There's a lot of things that could deserve burns forever, and a lot of people too. Personally, I have in mind people of the quality of Videla, Massera, Galtieri, Onganía, Pinochet, Margaret Thatcher, Saddam, Hitler, Bush, Stalin, Neron, Mussolini, and others when I wish that there was a hell. I don't think that what they did to other people (most of them completely innocent) is incomparable to them burning for eternity. If you can't relate to this, too bad.Quote:
Originally posted by atiguhya padma
I find this statement incredibly offensive:
<Yet another explanation could be that you know that people are burning in hell, but you don't resent that, because it's their fair punishment for what they did in life (and I do wish for some people to burn in hell, because that would do the justice that hasn't been served on Earth).>
Fayefaye thought I was horrible for comparing the actions of Stalin and Hitler to some of God's actions. Yet the burning of people in Auschwitz, in the act itself, is, as an act, incomparable to eternal burning of a human being. Forever suffering 1st degree burns is fair punishment???? For what? What could possibly deserve this? And this is something you wish for Crisaor!! You are inhuman. Why don't you burn a few people who deserve it here on earth? Why wait til they get to hell. I guess you would have been one of those Christians celebrating at the burning of the witches during the inquisition.
I'm very human, of course. And I wouldn't burn anyone. And obviously, I don't approve the Inquisition. But then again, this pathetic assumptions you keep making don't surprise me anynmore. I hope you end up quitting them.
This kind of "inhumanity" is simply the desire to have some justice in the afterlife, when it hasn't been served on earth (none of the people I mentioned ever went to jail to serve time for the horrible crimes they commited). Yeah, now I'm guilty of you not respecting religion. Right. Take some responsability for your actions.Quote:
Originally posted by atiguhya padma
You are unbelievable Crisaor. Just unbelievable. This is why I find it so difficult to respect all beliefs. Because some people, like you, harbour the most dark and atrocious desires. I can have no faith in a profession of belief that can engender this kind of inhumanity.
Can't you get away from this eye for an eye rubbish!! Can't you see how this kind of thinking, your kind of thinking has screwed the world up??
Tell me do you think it has really helped in the war torn places of the world?
A person by definition in my book does not deserve eternal burning. I am an atheist, and yet even I can see how that such a punisher is inhuman. How can you inflict pain on someone because they themselves have inflicted pain? The world seems to run on your fine principles Crisaor. You must feel quite happy with the world.
If you think what your list of despots did to people deserves eternal suffering, then I can only assume you fail to understand the terms 'eternal' or 'suffering'.
<I'm very human, of course. And I wouldn't burn anyone.>
Well you could always get someone to do your dirty work for you. Why is it that after death you can feel fine about someone eternally burning, but can't seem to stomach the idea in life? Tell me what's the difference? Because if there is a difference, then somebody killing someone in life surely just deserves death in this life don't they? not eternal suffering. I am glad to see that people like Cassandra and Fayefaye don't share your disgusting views.
<Sigh>
For the eleventh time, you keep misunderstanding me, deliberately, or so it seems. If I agreed with the eye for an eye thing, I would shoot them myself. And getting someone to do it for me enters that categorie. Again, I don't think like that. If we can't punish the guilty ones that commited crimes against humanity (with jail for life, I don't support the death penalty), then I hope God does, otherwise, they'll get away with it. Maybe to you justice isn't important, to me it is.
And how come you speak of tolerance to me? You've mocked anyone who dared to say "I believe in God". Your double rethoric doesn't fool anyone. If you consider my views disgusting, I guess I'm right.
Crisaor,
You don't support the death penalty but do support eternal suffering???
Man you are some scary creature!
Crisaor,
Don't you think you should forgive that hate list of yours? I am not saying you should respect them or accept them and their actions, but shouldn't you forgive them?
Yes. I don't feel that anyone is capable (everyone is capable, actually, what I mean is that no one has the right) of taking another life, no matter what the other did.
Eternal suffering is a judgement made by God, and the God I believe in happens to be perfect, so, I don't see anything wrong with it.
Aren't you asking for much? Forgiving Hitler??? or Videla? or Pinochet? Surely you're teasing me...
If I had seen them rot in jail, probably I wouldn't hate them that much, though.
Hate isn't the kind of four letter word I would normally associate with Christians. But for you Crisaor, I will make an exception.
So what do you mean by perfect? Are you trying to say all his actions, all his creations are perfect?
I'm now looking out of the window on Crisaor's perfect world!