OK, I accept it. It is possible, I just don't remember it. ;) It's not really that important to play anyways. Have you been reading? Any comments?Quote:
Originally Posted by Schokokeks
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OK, I accept it. It is possible, I just don't remember it. ;) It's not really that important to play anyways. Have you been reading? Any comments?Quote:
Originally Posted by Schokokeks
So far I'm in the middle of the fourth act, but I definetely need to go through it once again, as I really don't feel like I've understood anything beside the very very main plot :(. I don't know why I find it that hard to concentrate on this play. Maybe it's the language (though there are some Shakespeare plays I didn't have that much difficulty with), or the fact that I have only time for reading it when riding public transportation, which might not be the easiest environment to enjoy Willy.Quote:
Originally Posted by dramasnot6
But I'll definetely hold on and can maybe contribute some points by the time you're nearly done with the discussion :p.
PS: Virgil, I edited my post above for some more enlightenment :D. But you're right, it's not really important anyway.
aww im sure youll get the hang of it. I dont know a cookie smarter then my schoky cookie! :D looking forward to your contribution!!
Well, Schoky, it sounds like you're correct. By the way, I've noticed there is a new biography out on Augustus. http://www.amazon.com/Augustus-Life-.../dp/1400061288. I've read Everitt's biography of Cicero and it was excellent.
Yes, don't worry Schoky. I used to have the same trouble when I was our age with Shakespeare, and I'm a native english speaker. Has any of my comments helped? Or what do you think of them?Quote:
Originally Posted by Schokokeks
have you missed me? :) the revised version of my story is up and here I am ready to talk about Act I :) ooops, yeah I know I'm lateQuote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Quote:
Originally Posted by Petrarch
yep, I got that impression, too. She actually urges him to read the message and deal with the politics while he dotes and is totally befuddled. But she conceals her interest in what's going on in the empire by teasing him.Quote:
Originally Posted by dramasnot
You mean she is not his wife (the fool I'm not) but since he may not love either of them, she is in the same situation as the wife and so she is a fool like the wife?Quote:
Originally Posted by Petrarch
hum, I was wondering, do these lines somehow poke fun at Cleopatra? I mean, she was wife/mistress to at least three powerful men: her half-brother Ptolemy, J.Caesar, Antony (Octavious offers a truce if she follows him to Rome as a trophy) and she kind of 'widows' them all. --> You shall outlive the lady whom you serve. = what you just said reads like Cleo's CV, but,no, your fate will be different.Quote:
Originally Posted by Act I, scene II
The Herod of Jewry bit doesn't fit in of course...
hehe, I know it's rubbish but it would be hilarious if that's what it meant.
Hehehe, I love these lines :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Act I, scene 2
Doesn't Cleopatra stand for fertility (the godess Isis), too, just like the Nile? So this would also imply that Cleo is as chaste as the Nile is infertile?
hehe, I'm not saying her servants deliberately mock her, but on a "meta-level" these lines might allude to her????
Well, you got us to read it. :p Yes I missed you. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by SleepyWitch
Good point. I think it is a slant reference to Cleo.Quote:
hum, I was wondering, do these lines somehow poke fun at Cleopatra? I mean, she was wife/mistress to at least three powerful men: her half-brother Ptolemy, J.Caesar, Antony (Octavious offers a truce if she follows him to Rome as a trophy) and she kind of 'widows' them all. --> You shall outlive the lady whom you serve. = what you just said reads like Cleo's CV, but,no, your fate will be different.
But wouldn't fertility imply children? Well, she certainly stands for sexuality. The servants sexual bantering in that scene I think is a contrast to the Roman seriousness and stoicism.Quote:
Doesn't Cleopatra stand for fertility (the godess Isis), too, just like the Nile? So this would also imply that Cleo is as chaste as the Nile is infertile?
oops, yes you're right.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
I'll try and read the 2nd and 3rd Act tonight.
what act/scene are you discussing?
I was about to start something on the second act.
cool. then I'll read as much as I can and post tomorrow (GMT+1 :) now it's Monday 1.40 p.m.)
we havent finished act1 though...gah..gotta get reading if we have....Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Also, i know its really early on, but could i suggest Othello for the next read? Ive just never read it and it seems really good for analysis, particulary male and female roles.
Drama, Next read will probably be Twelfth Night. And then in January we hav started a forum on Shakespeare play reads. The first scheduled will The Taming of the Shrew.
Drama this is the new Shakespeare Discussion Group forum that will start in January: http://www.online-literature.com/for...ad.php?t=20513
It lists the for year reads.
I'm halfway through the second act...
this is when Caesar and Antony meet for the first time in the play. They can't even agree on trivial matters, like who's to sit down first. This doesn't bode too well, does it?Quote:
Caes: Welcome to Rome
Ant. Thanke you
Caes Sit
Ant. Sit sir
Caes: Nay then
Agrippa's suggestion (that Antony should marry Caesar's sister) is clearly rehearsed. Do these lines mean that Caesar knows about the plan and gives Agrippa his cue to give his little speech? Like "erhem, if I only knew what to do?" *coughcough nudge nudge*?Quote:
Caesar. I do not much dislike the matter, but
The manner of his speech: for't cannot be,
We shall remaine in friendship, our conditions
So diffring in their acts. Yet if I knew,
What Hoope should hold vs staunch from edge to edge
Ath' world: I would persue it
Agri. Giue me leaue Caesar
Caesar. Speake Agrippa
hehe, Antony ...did sit alone whistling to the air.. :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by act II, scene 2 Enobarbus
our Shakespeare tutor at Warwick said Enobarbus has a crush on Cleo. Do you think so? I mean it's interesting that the most detailed and elaborate description of her is given by him, but how can you tell he fancies her?
It struck me as rehearsed too, although there's no evidence that it is. But what's interesting about that is Ceasar's committment to making the empire work. He will make peace with Antony and offer his sister if that's what it will take. We know shortly after that Antony is not serious about his responsibilities, or if he is, he's of two minds. Shortly after this scene, although he's going to marry Octavia, he has every intention of going back to Cleo.Quote:
Originally Posted by SleepyWitch
Crush? I think he's hot for her. Or not just her, but the whole Egyptian sensual life. I think Enobarbarus's character parallels Antony's, but in a lesser way. Both are epicureans, but while Antony has a element of nobility, Eno is of lower order. He reminds me of Falstaff, only without the humor.Quote:
our Shakespeare tutor at Warwick said Enobarbus has a crush on Cleo. Do you think so? I mean it's interesting that the most detailed and elaborate description of her is given by him, but how can you tell he fancies her?
our tutor said, the speech is much too well-structured to be spontaneous. For one thing, it's full of stylistic devices (e.g. the blue passages).Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
---> Agrippa has planned this. But whether Caesar was in on it is a different matter, of course.Quote:
AGRIPPA
To hold you in perpetual amity,
To make you brothers, and to knit your hearts
With an unslipping knot, take Antony
Octavia to his wife; whose beauty claims
No worse a husband than the best of men;
Whose virtue and whose general graces speak
That which none else can utter. By this marriage,
All little jealousies, which now seem great,
And all great fears, which now import their dangers,
Would then be nothing: truths would be tales,
Where now half tales be truths: her love to both
Would, each to other and all loves to both,
Draw after her. Pardon what I have spoke;
For 'tis a studied, not a present thought,
By duty ruminated.
without the humour? I think he's extremely funny :) He teases his boss all the time and has this ironic sense of humour:Quote:
He reminds me of Falstaff, only without the humor.
Quote:
DOMITIUS ENOBARBUS
Or, if you borrow one another's love for the
instant, you may, when you hear no more words of
Pompey, return it again: you shall have time to
wrangle in when you have nothing else to do.
MARK ANTONY
Thou art a soldier only: speak no more.
DOMITIUS ENOBARBUS
That truth should be silent I had almost forgot.
Oh yes, Agrippa even says that he's given this some thought. I thought you meant Ceasar. It seems as if Ceasar knows about the idea, but no where that I saw has he planned this.Quote:
Originally Posted by SleepyWitch
Yes, Ok, but he's still no Falstaff.Quote:
without the humour? I think he's extremely funny :) He teases his boss all the time and has this ironic sense of humour
i don't remember Falstaff too well, but yep.. I suppose Enobarbus's sense of humour is a bit more subtle/intellectual, although he says some bawdy things in Act I, as well.. but in general he's not as great a clown as Falstaff
I wanted to point out something in Act II, Scene 2. The verbal exchange between Antony and Ceasar in a way parallels the exchange that Antony had with Cleo back in Act I, scene 3 but with a very important difference. In the scene with Cleo, as I pointed out in an earlier post, Cleo chastises him while Antony can barely get a word in inchwise. Here Ceasar also is chastising Antony, but notice the differece:
Sorry for the lengthy quote, but Antony clearly defends himself verbally and stands up to Ceasar. The difference is startling, and here Antony is actually admitting wrong doing on his part; he admits he "neglected" his duties. But he forcably defends himself so that the level of power between the two are equal. But he was not equal with Cleopatra, and there he was probably in the right.Quote:
OCTAVIUS CAESAR
I must be laugh'd at,
If, or for nothing or a little, I
Should say myself offended, and with you
Chiefly i' the world; more laugh'd at, that I should
Once name you derogately, when to sound your name
It not concern'd me.
MARK ANTONY
My being in Egypt, Caesar,
What was't to you?
OCTAVIUS CAESAR
No more than my residing here at Rome
Might be to you in Egypt: yet, if you there
Did practise on my state, your being in Egypt
Might be my question.
MARK ANTONY
How intend you, practised?
OCTAVIUS CAESAR
You may be pleased to catch at mine intent
By what did here befal me. Your wife and brother
Made wars upon me; and their contestation
Was theme for you, you were the word of war.
MARK ANTONY
You do mistake your business; my brother never
Did urge me in his act: I did inquire it;
And have my learning from some true reports,
That drew their swords with you. Did he not rather
Discredit my authority with yours;
And make the wars alike against my stomach,
Having alike your cause? Of this my letters
Before did satisfy you. If you'll patch a quarrel,
As matter whole you have not to make it with,
It must not be with this.
OCTAVIUS CAESAR
You praise yourself
By laying defects of judgment to me; but
You patch'd up your excuses.
MARK ANTONY
Not so, not so;
I know you could not lack, I am certain on't,
Very necessity of this thought, that I,
Your partner in the cause 'gainst which he fought,
Could not with graceful eyes attend those wars
Which fronted mine own peace. As for my wife,
I would you had her spirit in such another:
The third o' the world is yours; which with a snaffle
You may pace easy, but not such a wife.
DOMITIUS ENOBARBUS
Would we had all such wives, that the men might go
to wars with the women!
MARK ANTONY
So much uncurbable, her garboils, Caesar
Made out of her impatience, which not wanted
Shrewdness of policy too, I grieving grant
Did you too much disquiet: for that you must
But say, I could not help it.
OCTAVIUS CAESAR
I wrote to you
When rioting in Alexandria; you
Did pocket up my letters, and with taunts
Did gibe my missive out of audience.
MARK ANTONY
Sir,
He fell upon me ere admitted: then
Three kings I had newly feasted, and did want
Of what I was i' the morning: but next day
I told him of myself; which was as much
As to have ask'd him pardon. Let this fellow
Be nothing of our strife; if we contend,
Out of our question wipe him.
OCTAVIUS CAESAR
You have broken
The article of your oath; which you shall never
Have tongue to charge me with.
LEPIDUS
Soft, Caesar!
MARK ANTONY
No,
Lepidus, let him speak:
The honour is sacred which he talks on now,
Supposing that I lack'd it. But, on, Caesar;
The article of my oath.
OCTAVIUS CAESAR
To lend me arms and aid when I required them;
The which you both denied.
MARK ANTONY
Neglected, rather;
And then when poison'd hours had bound me up
From mine own knowledge. As nearly as I may,
I'll play the penitent to you: but mine honesty
Shall not make poor my greatness, nor my power
Work without it. Truth is, that Fulvia,
To have me out of Egypt, made wars here;
For which myself, the ignorant motive, do
So far ask pardon as befits mine honour
To stoop in such a case.
We see here that Antony can handle the affairs of state with men, but in the womanly world of Cleopatra, he clearly is not on firm footing.
oi, Uncle Virgil, that's what I call the art of putting things in a nutshell :)Quote:
But he forcably defends himself so that the level of power between the two are equal. But he was not equal with Cleopatra, and there he was probably in the right.
We see here that Antony can handle the affairs of state with men, but in the womanly world of Cleopatra, he clearly is not on firm footing.
when I read the second act I thought "wow Antony is a totally different man" but it would have taken me 20 pages to define what I mean :)
where are Schoko, drama and PL? let's take a break and wait for them? (still stuck in act 2 myself)
Thanks. We'll wait. But I have some questions about Act II, Scene 7. It is an amazing scene that I beleive one has to actually see dramatized to get it's full effect. Reading it doesn't do it justice. I have a video of an A&C dramatisation and that scene is overwhelming visually. But frankly within the structure of the play I don't claim to understand it.Quote:
Originally Posted by SleepyWitch
Hi Virgil! I'm back. Hi everyone... I'm new to this discussion but I've been reading and enjoying it and trying to catch up on my Antony and Cleopatra before I chimed in....Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Act II, scene 7 is the scene in which the Triumverate meet with Pompey at the banquet on his galley. It is - or can be - a very visual scene, although I've seen it performed very simply as well.
Virgil, can you be more specific about what it is you don't understand about the scene...?
Arlene
The scene does move the plot in any way. The resolution with Pompey occurs in the previous scene. If this scene were completely taken out, it would have no impact to the play. And yet, this is one of the longest scenes in the entire play. There has got to be more significance, especially since it is so visual and playful.
We see Lepidus drunk. But that really doesn't mean anything to either the Antony and Cleo sub-plot or the Antony and Ceasar rivalry.
We see that Pompey could have killed all three of the Triumpherate (sp?) and become Emperor of the world. But what's so important there. That has no significance either.
Now I have some ideas since I've kicked this around, but I would like to see what people come up with.
Really, Drama, you're such a sweetiiiie ! :nod:.Quote:
aww im sure youll get the hang of it. I dont know a cookie smarter then my schoky cookie! :D
Well, funny thing is, we're reading Hamlet for class at the moment, and I don't find that half as difficult to concentrate on. Although the plot is very complex, too, of course, but somehow there I actually understand what's being said in every line.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Yes, all your comments are very helpful :nod:.
I have now completed the play, and am ready to go into the scenes in detail :nod:. This week, though, I'm a bit busy applying for a national scholarship, but I think I shall be able to come back tomorrow or Friday to post something serious.
Oh please concentrate on that. That is really important. Good luck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Schokokeks
Perhaps some of you here have trouble with A&C because it's a play of middle aged characters ands middle age issues. Hamlet is a young person's play. At the risk of having Janine and msdirector mad at me, I would say that as I get older I find Hamlet a little whiney. :D
Thank you very much, Virgil :).Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
But now that I've posted here, I couldn't resist and have just reread II,7:
Yes, I'm beginning to see that, too. Though I'm by no means familiar with middle age problems, I think I've spoted two instances in the scene reminding me of it.Two servants are introducing the drinking scene and are giving their observations both specifical (as to Lepidus being urged to drinking) and more general:Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
This might be a hint to the pressure both Antony and Caesar experience vis-à-vis their responsabilities as triumviri. They had to pave their own way very carefully beforehand, anticipating as many events as possible, planning their actions and thus always hunting political success. Especially Antony seems to be tired of it at the time of the play, as he says to Caesar later in the scene:Quote:
1 SERV:
To be called into a huge sphere, and not to be seen to move in't, are the holes where eyes should be...
Caesar, in contrast, does not want to lose control, to abandon himself, even if it's 'only' to wine, but desires to have a firm hold of things, to go on shaping, whereas Antony gives me the impression as if he is aware that he has already reached his peak and cannot advance any further.Quote:
ANTONY:
Be a child o' the time.
CAESAR:
Possess it, I'll make answer:...
So far my two cents :).
That's interesting, I actually find it quite intriguing :D. But maybe it really has to do with the age of the reader...I'll let you know how I think about it in 20 years time ;).Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
You know I did not really look that carefully at what the servants were saying. That is an interesting line you quote. I'll need to look at that more. Yes, Ceasar's reaction is predictable. We already know that from other scenes. And we already know that Antony can't help himself. But what I find puzzling is how the three leaders would put themselves in a precarious position, without protection. And it's highlighted by pompey's underling, who says they could kill them and get away with it. I also find the scene extremely masculine. It's all men in a bachanal, not a sexual one, but a male drinking party. You're probably only reading the text. I wish I could show you the video version of the drama. The men are dancing and stumbling drunk and singing. Here:Quote:
Originally Posted by Schokokeks
It's an incredibly visual dance. And like I said, nothing in the scene propells the plot along. So it's all thematic.Quote:
DOMITIUS ENOBARBUS
All take hands.
Make battery to our ears with the loud music:
The while I'll place you: then the boy shall sing;
The holding every man shall bear as loud
As his strong sides can volley.
Music plays. DOMITIUS ENOBARBUS places them hand in hand
THE SONG.
Come, thou monarch of the vine,
Plumpy Bacchus with pink eyne!
In thy fats our cares be drown'd,
With thy grapes our hairs be crown'd:
Cup us, till the world go round,
Cup us, till the world go round!
OK, I'll see you in 20 years. :) But by then I will be talking about King Lear, a play that deals with late life. :D And I'll be really OOOOLD then.:bawling:Quote:
That's interesting, I actually find it quite intriguing :D. But maybe it really has to do with the age of the reader...I'll let you know how I think about it in 20 years time ;).
No argument from me, Virgil. But I really don't think it is a function of our ages (I'm no spring chicken either!), but rather of perception and patience. Hamlet does get a bit "whiney". Or at least philosophically rambling. But that's because it is very much a psychological study, and you can't have that without exploring his psyche. We all tend to get whiny (in our minds) when faced with difficult choices that seem to have no clear answers, even when we put on a macho facade for the public.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Connecting this to the current play, I tend to find Antony incredibly whiny! He does a lot of whining on how none of this is his fault, as well as being completely out of touch with what is going on in his world in his obsession with Cleopatra.
In response to some of the earlier posts on Antony's political abilities compared to Cleopatra's, I think they different in a very, very basic way. Cleopatra is a ruler. She was born and raised as ruler and, by all accounts, her belief in the inherent superiority of Egypt as a country, of all things Egyptian as a culture, a political force and a life style was unshakeable, and her main focus was first and foremost for what was best for her country. She IS Egypt (she is even referred to and refers to herself that way in the play). She learned politics when barely more than a child, not only from her own struggles for her own life and throne, but also from, arguably, the most political man of his times, Julius Caesar, and she learned well. She loves Antony and would do just about anything for him, but NOT to distraction and NOT at the expense of her country. She, like Elizabeth I, could have honestly said "I know I have the body of a weak and feeble woman, but I have the heart and stomach of a king."
Antony, on the other hand, is a soldier. Despite having been put in the position of being a member of the Triumvirate, of wanting power and fighting for it, he really is not a political animal. His interests are personal, not for his country. He is a sensualist and fights - and loves - from emotion, not for principal or beliefs. He was never trained to rule and has no conception of how to weigh the interests of his country against his own desires. He abandons Rome and Roman interests for his own passions - something that Cleopatra never does. He is simply not the ruler or the politician she is and her wit and manipulative powers are far and away beyond his. It's not a question of functioning in a man's or woman's world - although that is part of it - but rather the inner strength and understanding of both those worlds that makes Cleopatra so much stronger, both as a ruler and politician, and as a person, than Antony is.
Opposites attract?
I find it interesting that Cleopatra's strength, political skills and focus on her country makes her seem far more Roman than Antony (perhaps partly though innate qualities and partly through J. Caesar's training) and that Antony's sensuality and passionate self-focus gives him far more like what the Romans (and Shakespeare) described as Egyptian qualities. There is a paradox there. And since ultimately it is the Roman world that triumphs in the story (and history), perhaps it is that which ultimately defeats Antony and that allows Cleopatra, even in her own death, to emerge victorious over her foes.
Gee, I'm only gone a couple of days and Virgil has turned into Polonious on us all of a sudden. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
It looks like you guys are getting into a great discussion of 2.7, but I wanted to take us back for just a moment, since I see that no one's brought out the most famous lines in the play (indeed, some of the most famous from Shakespeare), from 2.2, and I think they should at least be on the table. They come just after the big players (Antony and Caesar) have had their diplomatic sitting match and marriage negotiations, and Enobarbus and Agrippa are left to talk things over:
and later in the scene:Quote:
Originally Posted by William Shakespeare
Like the woman they describe, these passages never seem to stale for me, no matter how many times they're read. The description of Cleopatra on the barge actually follows a passage from Plutarch extremely closely, and it's very interesting to compare the Shakespeare with the source passage and see what changes Shakespeare made to the prose description in order to transform it into this (in my opinion anyway) nearly flawless verse. For anyone interested in the Plutarch, here's a link to the pertinent passage in the North translation, which is the same one Shakespeare would most likely have referred to: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin...=Plut.+Ant.+26Quote:
Originally Posted by The Bard
This passage also connects with 2.7, but I'm going to move to that in the next post, since this one's long enough already.
I quoted the passage describing Cleopatra in her barge at length not only because it's beautiful poetry, but because I think it's thematically linked to 2.7. In the earlier passage the water becomes the location for both intense pleasure and political power, one might almost go so far as to say political overthrow, since it is in this scene that Cleopatra, Queen of Egypt, overcomes the General Antony. She entices him off the land into a world of sensuality where he gets caught off guard and his identity as Antony the soldier is first put in jeopardy.
In 2.7 we once again see Antony, and this time the rest of the triumvirate as well, on board a ship and caught off guard, lost in sensuality. This time it is not Cleopatra's but Pompey's ship and it is in him that we see the potential--though not the acheivement--of overthrow. I don't want to say too much for those who haven't read the play before, but those who either have read the play, or who know the history may want to think about the role of the sea versus the land as the location for power struggle at the end of the play. I tend to think of 2.7 as the "worlds collide" scene. Not only does it show the meeting between, to use Virgil's terms, the "male" or martial centered world of the Romans now located in what was earlier described as the "feminine" sensual world of the Egyptians, but the three parts of the known world are metaphorically present in the three leaders. When they all sing "cup us till the world go round," for example, the line means not only that they will drink until it seems to them that the world goes around them, but that when they are spinning around drunkenly then the world will also spin around, since they are the world.
It's a wonderfully complex scene, and I think part of its importance lies in showing an instance of the way the triumvirate interact together in their down time. Shakespeare's covering a daunting amount of history in this play (nearly ten years) so I think this scene partly functions as a slice of time to show how unstable and precarious the political situation between these three men could be.
Incidently, I've always liked the bit about the crocodile in this scene:
It is purposefully an incredibly ambiguous description at the same time as it is entirely straightforward and truthful. In a way it's similar to the way people consistently describe Antony as either being like or unlike Antony but without specifically deciding what Antony is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Will S.
Anyway, I could go on about this scene, but I suppose someone else may want to get a word in edgewise. :lol:
Oh, I just saw MsDirector's post. Yes, I think you have an excellent point about Cleopatra having been raised as a ruler. She's certainly a strong political force. I wouldn't necessarily say that Antony was politically naive though. I think you raise an interesting question as to whether Cleopatra is really the one to blame for Antony becoming "un-Roman" or if there is something about Antony himself that is attracted to the Epicurean lifestyle.
Great post Petrarch. I can't seem to get enough of Act 2, Scene 7. It mesmorizes me. I don't think you've even scratched the surface. More on it later, when I get more time.
As to Antony being politically naive, I think that isway too strong a statement. Sorry Arlene. He certainly knows the importance of marrying Octavia, he defends himself against Ceasar's charges even when he's actually in the wrong, and going back to the Julius Ceasar play he politically out manuevers Brutus and Cassius. Nor is Cleo all that astute either. She completely screws up the battle, pushing Antony into a fight he can't win. Her best chance would have been a diplomatic treaty with Caesar, but she actually wanted more. And she wanted Antony, who was going to be the loser against Ocativious no matter what. What is interesting is that they both seem to make wrong choices for their love.
The politics are an interesting overlap to the love situation between Cleo and Antony. Why would Shakespeare be so interested in the politics of 1600 years before him in a different world? One doesn't see politics in Romeo and Juliet or Cymbeline or any other play that a love relationship is the critical theme. Here the politics of middle aged people are entangled because adults don't live in an isolated love experience. The world interacts with an adult relationship.
More on Act II, Scene 7:
As Schoky pointed out, the servants introductary dialogue is presaging:
Notice how it echoes several of the temes of the play: war, discretion, men's fellowship, global conflict.Quote:
First Servant
But it raises the greater war between him and
his discretion.
Second Servant
Why, this is to have a name in great men's
fellowship: I had as lief have a reed that will do
me no service as a partisan I could not heave.
First Servant
To be called into a huge sphere, and not to be seen
to move in't, are the holes where eyes should be,
which pitifully disaster the cheeks
The whole scene is a trip into another world, if I may be metaphoric. The drinking has an effect of creating this mythical imaginary world. The playing Antony teasing the drunk Lepidus about an absurd Egypt and crocodile is an excurision out of reality, sort of like in a Mid Summer Nights Dream, only it's not tangibly real here but from an altered state of mind.
The intoxicated state emphasizes several things. Several have mentioned that Ceasar's and Antony's personalities, one restraining himself, the other completely letting go. What is shown here is one half of the binaries that flow throughout the play: Masculine, imagination (as opposed to cold reality), indulgence (as opposed to stoicism), irresponsibility (as opposed to duty), Rome (as opposed to Egypt).
Another motif here is that wine acts as a poison, which takes the drinkers into a very dangerous place. Poison runs throughout the play as a motif, and of course is how Cleopatra ends her life.
I don't think I've put a complete statement of what the purpose of the scene is. I too have only poked around and noticed elements. I still can't articulate the scene's function.
It is a magnificent scene to see dramatized. Sleepywitch, when you go to London and see the play, you must tell me what you think of this scene.
yep, I'll do that... argh, I need to take another break from reading A&C.. there's too much going on at univQuote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
I am so so behind here guys...i think ill have to quit on the play :( I hope you have fun though! Looks like you have some great analysis going on
If I post something, will I be talking to myself? :alien: I will say something on Act III later.
I'm moving forward with discussing Act III.
Act III is a mostly a plot transitionary secton. There is lots events that take place in a quick stage time, but I think implied that they happen over a much story longer time span.
Scene 1, Ventidius, Antony's underling, proclaims victory over the Parthians, but is reluctant to overly brag.
Scene 2, Antony and Octavia now married depart for Greece.
Scene 3, Cleo asks about Octavia's looks.
Scene 4, Antony tells Octavia he must prepare for war because Ceasar is preparing against him.
Scene 5, We learn that Antony seems to be procrastinating in his preparations.
Scene 6, Ceasar makes claims that Antony is traitorous and has spurned Octavia.
Scenes 7 Antony against his genreals advice decides to engage Ceasar in a Naval battle.
Scenes 7, 8, 9, 10 The battle is engaged.
Scene 11, Antony retreats from the battle and so loses. He sends to Ceasar terms for peace.
Scene 12, Ceasar rejects Antony's terms but will allow Cleo amnesty if she gives up Antony.
Scene 13, There is finger pointing in Antony's camp as to the loss, Antony has Ceasar's messenger whipped, and Antony and Cleo decide they must continue to battle Ceasar, this time on a ground battle.
Certainly a busy and even confusing Act. But there are a number of things to point out.
1. Ceasar's defeat of Pompey despite their truce is remarkable in showing Ceasar's calculating character. They were just drinking up a party in the previous act. And also Ceasar has turned on Lepidus and found fault with Antony. One wonders if his giving of Octavia in marriage was sincere.
2. I find Antony incredibly genteel, first with Octavia in scene 2. He doesn't love her, we know, but treats her with respect. And then at the end of the act, while he seems convinced that he has lost the battle to Ceasar becuase of Cleo actions, he treats her tenderly and with love (after he blows his fuse).
3. It's incredibly ambiguous as to how Antony has lost. Is it his cowerdous, or has Cleopatra confused the battle and lured Antony away? What exactly happened? I'm not sure.
4. Antony seems to have decided to give up a number of times. Each time he does return to his duty. Is he tired? Does he feal he cannot beat Ceasar no matter what? Is he old?
I wonder whether these two parts might be connected:Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Caesar married his beloved sister to Antony in order to settle their formal reconciliation, although he was well aware of the latter being still drawn to Cleopatra, an arrangement which is bound to make his sister unhappy by and by. As follows, Antony faces the need to prepare for war against Caesar, and grants his wife everything she needs to travel back to Rome as a mediator between the two men she's devoted to. Octavia leaves and is received by her brother as a castaway (III,6), although she herself does not feel this way, but Caesar persists:
Now that adulterous Antony has obviously spurned his wife and Caesar's sister, has not Caesar all the more a reason to prepare for battle ?Quote:
OCTAVIA:
Is it so, sir ?
CAESAR:
Most certain. Sister, welcome: pray you,
Be ever know to patience: my dear'st sister!
Yes. I've read in someone's criticism that he believed that Ceasar had planned it so he could find a rationale to attack Antony. I'm not so sure. I believed Ceasar was looking to cement their union with the offer of Octavia in that scene where they decide this. (Was that Actii, scene 1?) But he certainly jumps on it when Octavia is spurned. And frankly that too is ambiguous. Was she spurned? So much of Act III seems opaque.Quote:
Originally Posted by Schokokeks
I'm going to continue. I found Scene 13 of Act III very interesting.
We see the psychological drama of an aging hero who has lost and feels it. Antony to compensate for his military failure challenges the "boy" Ceasar to a duel.
And later in the scene he chastises Ceasar's messenger for trying to lure Cleo away from him:Quote:
MARK ANTONY
To him again: tell him he wears the rose
Of youth upon him; from which the world should note
Something particular: his coin, ships, legions,
May be a coward's; whose ministers would prevail
Under the service of a child as soon
As i' the command of Caesar: I dare him therefore
To lay his gay comparisons apart,
And answer me declined, sword against sword,
Ourselves alone. I'll write it: follow me.
"I am Antony yet." is the cry of a older man feeling his potency being dissipated. The psychology that Shakespeare creates is an over compensation of exertion of power (he has the man whipped) and self-aggrandizing emotion:Quote:
MARK ANTONY
Approach, there! Ah, you kite! Now, gods
and devils!
Authority melts from me: of late, when I cried 'Ho!'
Like boys unto a muss, kings would start forth,
And cry 'Your will?' Have you no ears? I am
Antony yet.
Twice he says "he makes me angry." And notice how different he speaks to Cleo. He rails at her in a supercilios manner, unlike that of Act I where she lorded over him. He tells her "You have been a boggler ever" and "I found you as a morsel cold upon dead Ceasar's trencher; nay, you were a fragment of Gneaus Pompey's".Quote:
MARK ANTONY
...
Re-enter Attendants with THYREUS
Is he whipp'd?
First Attendant
Soundly, my lord.
MARK ANTONY
Cried he? and begg'd a' pardon?
First Attendant
He did ask favour.
MARK ANTONY
If that thy father live, let him repent
Thou wast not made his daughter; and be thou sorry
To follow Caesar in his triumph, since
Thou hast been whipp'd for following him: henceforth
The white hand of a lady fever thee,
Shake thou to look on 't. Get thee back to Caesar,
Tell him thy entertainment: look, thou say
He makes me angry with him; for he seems
Proud and disdainful, harping on what I am,
Not what he knew I was: he makes me angry;
And at this time most easy 'tis to do't,
When my good stars, that were my former guides,
Have empty left their orbs, and shot their fires
Into the abysm of hell. If he mislike
My speech and what is done, tell him he has
Hipparchus, my enfranched bondman, whom
He may at pleasure whip, or hang, or torture,
As he shall like, to quit me: urge it thou:
Hence with thy stripes, begone!
And counterpointing this self-agrrandizement are Enobarbus's comments:
andQuote:
DOMITIUS ENOBARBUS
[Aside] Yes, like enough, high-battled Caesar will
Unstate his happiness, and be staged to the show,
Against a sworder! I see men's judgments are
A parcel of their fortunes; and things outward
Do draw the inward quality after them,
To suffer all alike. That he should dream,
Knowing all measures, the full Caesar will
Answer his emptiness! Caesar, thou hast subdued
His judgment too.
andQuote:
DOMITIUS ENOBARBUS
[Aside] Mine honesty and I begin to square.
The loyalty well held to fools does make
Our faith mere folly: yet he that can endure
To follow with allegiance a fall'n lord
Does conquer him that did his master conquer
And earns a place i' the story.
In some respect Enobarbus functions here similarly as Thersites in Troilus and Cressida. However, while everyone can clearly characterize Thersites as cynical, I don't think that Enobarbus is cynical here. I would characterize them as realistic. Antony's motives are not striving to reach for some unachievable idealism from which a deflating cynacism is required; Antony's is trying to reach back to what he once was, from which a deflating realism counterpoints nicely.Quote:
DOMITIUS ENOBARBUS
Now he'll outstare the lightning. To be furious,
Is to be frighted out of fear; and in that mood
The dove will peck the estridge; and I see still,
A diminution in our captain's brain
Restores his heart: when valour preys on reason,
It eats the sword it fights with. I will seek
Some way to leave him.
I think that this scene is perhaps best appreciated as the first appearance of the word "S A U C Y" in the play.
Only posted that for you, Brit and Mar. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Antony