April/Faulkner Book: The Sound and the Fury

I think the most telling bit about Jason is his burning of the tickets. What an ***.
I was thinking about the difference between Caddie and Quentin, her daughter, perhaps Caddie was promiscuous by choice and Quentin felt forced into it, by Jason's lack of giving her the 'little things' in life both Caddie and Caroline begged of him. Hence her proclamation at the forced dinner, "if I'm bad it's because of you". What do y'all think? Benjy and Caddie's relationship doesn't seem so innocent to me, but maybe I'm reading into it, but why does Faulkner make him have to be gelded? Why was Benjy chasing down a little girl, if she doesn't somehow remind him of Caddie? moan, moan, moan. hmmm.

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Originally Posted by Riesa

why does Faulkner make him have to be gelded? Why was Benjy chasing down a little girl, if she doesn't somehow remind him of Caddie? moan, moan, moan. hmmm.

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I think you didn't catch what exactly happened when Benjy went after the girl. I didn't at first either. He was responding to her as if she were Caddie, affectionate love, but everyone intepreted it his grasping as Benjy expressing sexual/rape feelings for that girl. And so everyone thought best to castrate him, and he not being able to explain/express what he felt is the irony. Not being able to communicate is another theme. The sound and the fury.

Did I read that correctly that Quentin threatened Dalton Ames and told him to leave town?

He threatened to kill him, and tried to beat him up, but failed. I'm not sure about him saying to leave town, but I think so. He fainted, I remember.

I was simply saying that because of her race, Dilsey's acts of goodness and heroism are insignificant.Her altruistic nature has no merit in Southern society because to outsiders she is just thier nigger servant.

And Jason isn't so bad.My Father makes him look like Santa Claus.

Jason did say the only thing in the book that made me laugh: "Blood, I says, governors and generals. It's a damn good thing we never had any kings and presidents; we'd all be down there at Jackson chasing butterflies." but that doesn't mean he's not still selfish and cruel.

Selfish.....yes.


Cruel.....I didn't think so.

Ry - You don't think burning up the tickets right in fron of Luster was cruel?

I though it was sort of mean,but in comparison to the cruelty going on in modern society it was tame.Jason's a big ol' teddy bear.

No, the tickets are bad. But this is worse:

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...I saw her standing on the corner under the light and I told Mink to drive close to the walk and when I said Go on, to give the team a bat. Then I took the raincoat off of her and held her to the window and Caddy saw her and sort of jumped forward.

"Hit 'em, Mink!" I says, and Mink gave them a cut and we went past her like a fire engine. "Now get on that train like you promised," I says. I could see her running after us through the back window. "Hit 'em again," I says, "Let's get on home." When we turned the corner she was still running.

And so I counted the money again that night and put it away, and I didn't feel so bad.

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This is after having forced Caddy to pay him a hundred dollars just to see Quentin, then driving around in the dark just so she'd have to wait even longer in the rain. The last sentence suggests that this abuse and subsequent financial gain had a therapeutic effect on his mood, which had been soured earlier by Caddy showing up unexpected at their father's funeral, of whose death she wasn't even notified and had to read about by chance in the paper.

Ry, others may be worse than Jason, and I'm very sorry and I don't want to get into that. But relativity of badness doesn't make Jason any better.

Riesa, I agree that Jason's chapter has some very funny lines. Faulkner has a very dark, wry wit. Besides Jason's own funny statements, I feel at times that Faulkner uses Jason's own words to poke fun at him. For instance:

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Damn if I believe anybody knows anything about the damn thing except the ones that sit back in those New York offices and watch the country suckers come up and beg them to take their money.

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Then, two pages later:

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If there's one thing gets under my skin, it's a damn hypocrite. A man that thinks anything he dont understand all about must be crooked...

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Maybe it's just me, but that made me laugh.

I've also noticed that, despite Jason's very pointedly negative descriptions of the black people he encounters, Faulkner makes sure they get their word in. They're never disrespectful, but by contrasting their calm philosophical words with his own paranoid rantings, Jason's the one who comes out looking like a fool. I particularly enjoyed his conversation with Job about everyone going to the show. ("Fun" doesn't seem to be a word in Jason's vocabulary.)

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"Listen," I says. "Do you know how much that show'll spend in this town? About ten dollars," I says. "The ten dollars Buck Turpin has in his pocket right now."

"Whut dey give Mr Buck ten dollars fer?" he says.

"For the privilege of showing here," I says. "You can put the balance of what they'll spend in your eye."

"You mean dey pays ten dollars jest to give dey show here?" he says.

"That's all," I says. "And how much do you reckon..."

"Gret day," he says, "You mean to tell me dey chargin um to let um show here? I'd pay ten dollars to see dat man pick dat saw, ef I had to. I figures dat tomorrow mawnin I be still owin um nine dollars and six bits at dat rate."

And then a Yankee will talk your head off about niggers getting ahead. Get them ahead, what I say. Get them so far ahead you cant find one south of Louisville with a blood hound. Because when I told him about how they'd pick up Saturday night and carry off at least a thousand dollars out of the county, he says,

"I dont begrudge um. I kin sho afford my two bits."

"Two bits hell," I says. "That dont begin it. How about the dime or fifteen cents you'll spend for a damn two cent box of candy or something. How about the time you're wasting right now, listening to that band."

"Dat's de troof," he says. "Well, ef I lives twell night hit's gwine to be two bits mo dey takin out of town, dat's sho."

"Then you're a fool," I says.

"Well," he says, "I dont spute dat neither. Ef dat uz a crime, all chain-gangs wouldn't be black."

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Zing! :lol: Now, tell me if I'm wrong, but I think I know which of them Faulkner sides most with, and it makes me like Faulkner. As I see it, Jason leads a joyless life, not seeing merit in anything that doesn't make him money.

I agree, Emily. I loved that line: " "I dont begrudge um. I kin sho afford my two bits."

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Originally Posted by emily655321

Riesa, I agree that Jason's chapter has some very funny lines. Faulkner has a very dark, wry wit. Besides Jason's own funny statements, I feel at times that Faulkner uses Jason's own words to poke fun at him. For instance:Then, two pages later:Maybe it's just me, but that made me laugh.

I've also noticed that, despite Jason's very pointedly negative descriptions of the black people he encounters, Faulkner makes sure they get their word in. They're never disrespectful, but by contrasting their calm philosophical words with his own paranoid rantings, Jason's the one who comes out looking like a fool. I particularly enjoyed his conversation with Job about everyone going to the show. ("Fun" doesn't seem to be a word in Jason's vocabulary.)Zing! :lol: Now, tell me if I'm wrong, but I think I know which of them Faulkner sides most with, and it makes me like Faulkner. As I see it, Jason leads a joyless life, not seeing merit in anything that doesn't make him money.

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I wore a bright red tie, the kind that show guy wears with Quentin, to work on Monday in honor of Jason. This is a very funny chapter. And so is the ending where Quentin makes off with his (actually her's) money. The whole episode reminded me of a Chaucer tale, where a young couple connives an older, stupid fellow.

Am I the only one who was rooting for Jason??

He should've beat the crap out of Quentin when she was whoring around town,and Caddy dosen't deserve to see her daughter anyway,seeing as how it was her who gave Quentin up in the first place.

Jason is the only one in the family with any sense.

:eek: *extended speechlessness*

I... uh... are you being serious here?

Damn straight.

the only 'sane' one, eh? he's an odd sort of sane, when we compare him to the gentle ways of Dilsey. I guess compared to Mrs. Compson, he's more aware of what's going on around him, at least. I really couldn't say I rooted for him though. I think if I was to 'root' for anyone in the family, it'd be Caddie, or Miss Quentin.

Why would you root for Miss Quentin????

She needed to be slapped around,but Dilsey and Miss Compson kept interfering.I was hoping so bad that Jason would put Miss Quentin in her place,but Dilsey kept meddling,and that was the only reason I didn't like her.

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Originally Posted by Ryduce

Am I the only one who was rooting for Jason??

He should've beat the crap out of Quentin when she was whoring around town,and Caddy dosen't deserve to see her daughter anyway,seeing as how it was her who gave Quentin up in the first place.

Jason is the only one in the family with any sense.

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Some critics have caled Jason a sadst. He may be, but I don't find anything in the novel that quite reaches to that level. He's not Hitler. But, he is a mean S-O-B who really draws no sympathy. For what does he deserve any? He steals form his sister, he goes back on his bargins, and he doesn't really care for Quentin at all, her well being. I'm not rooting for him in the least.

I also think you're being unfair to Caddy. Sure she may have made some mistakes in her youth, but she cares for her daughter. She has love in her heart. Jason doesn't have any, at all.

Yes, Ry, you must be the only one rooting for Jason. But he is a great character.

Yeh maybe I have been kind of hard on Caddy because she did have a loving relationship with Benjy,but I felt that Jason had the potential to bring some sort of structure to the family.Perhaps it's just wishful thinking on my part,but I had faith that Jason's character would transcend to a compassionate individual in the end and bring some sort of equilibrium to the family.Oh well I guess.

He was mean,but you gotta love him.

did you love them Caddy did you love them When they touched me I died

Poor Caddy.

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Originally Posted by Ryduce

Why would you root for Miss Quentin????

She needed to be slapped around,but Dilsey and Miss Compson kept interfering.I was hoping so bad that Jason would put Miss Quentin in her place,but Dilsey kept meddling,and that was the only reason I didn't like her.

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Because she was brought up without any parents, where the only person who gave her affection (Dilsey) was ridiculed for it, and with an uncle who not only stole from her the only things her mother ever gave her (the checks), but made a daily effort to make her realize how hated and worthless she was. She had no encouragement to behave well, and the only discipline she received was the constant threat of violence.

That's why I'm rooting for Quentin.

And, Ry, I'd really appreciate it if you'd stop advocating physical violence against the women in this story, because it's making me very uncomfortable and unhappy, and I'd really not like to think that sort of thing of you.

Jason is so full of contradictions, so hypocritical. He has every opportunity to put her in her place, but never does. With his character, if he really wanted to, it seems to me that neither Dilsey nor Mrs. Compson could, or even would, stop him. He's stuck between thinking he's the only competent member of the family and the most victimized of them all. The notorious "job" he didn't get? (I'm a little unsure, but I think that was the job he was supposed to get with Caddie's husband?) So what, move on; he has every opportunity to do so at his job, but he doesn't take advantage of the opportunity when it presents itself. His boss even says "You'd be a good business man if you let yourself, Jason." But all Jason is capable of is to be insulting.

Why root for Miss Quentin? She got lost in the shuffle of everyone else's drama, she never had a chance. Her ending is of course ambivalent, but I couldn't help hoping she found some sort of happiness with her red-tie man, though that's wishful thinking and I'm pretty sure she was doomed not to.

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Originally Posted by emily655321

Because she was brought up without any parents, where the only person who gave her affection (Dilsey) was ridiculed for it, and with an uncle who not only stole from her the only things her mother ever gave her (the checks), but made a daily effort to make her realize how hated and worthless she was. She had no encouragement to behave well, and the only discipline she received was the constant threat of violence.

That's why I'm rooting for Quentin.

And, Ry, I'd really appreciate it if you'd stop advocating physical violence against the women in this story, because it's making me very uncomfortable and unhappy, and I'd really not like to think that sort of thing of you.

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I do not condone or advocate violence of any kind,especially against women,and I am truly sorry if I have made you unhappy in any way.I just really don't like licentiously behaving people,that's all.Again please accept my apology because I don't like violence at all,and I think that you are a really intelligent and cool chick.I wasn't trying to make that impression on anyone.

I'm Sorry Em!! :bawling: :bawling: :bawling:

Thanks, Ry. I didn't mean to make you feel bad, either.

I agree with Ry. Emily is a cool chick!

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Originally Posted by Virgil

I agree with Ry. Emily is a cool chick!

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Chick reminds me of chicken and chicken makes me think about Bird Flu and then I feel horrible. :confused:

I just can't win.

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Originally Posted by Pensive

Chick reminds me of chicken and chicken makes me think about Bird Flu and then I feel horrible. :confused:

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Pensy - It's just an expression.

Aw, I feel such love. :D :blush: Thanks again, boys.

Poor Pensy—"chick" just means "girl." And this girl doesn't have the flu. :D American soldiers in France during WWI adopted the term "poule" ("chicken," but slang for "prostitute") and translated it for reimportation into the American dialect. (My teacher told me this when we were reading Hemingway. I liked that teacher.)

I'd like to put out this lengthy post on how I think the novel holds together. I do it mid month only because tomorrow is Easter and TSATF is so linked to the holiday.

Why is the novel centered on the Easter weekend? Why are there three chapters in first person interior monologue and the fourth in third person?

I believe the novel all comes together with the Easter sermon of Reverend Shegog. Here are some excerpts. He starts:

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"Brethren and sisteren,"

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And here you can say he not only is addressing the brothers and sisters in the congregation, but the Compson siblings.

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"Breddren en sistuhn!" His voice rang again, with the horns. He removed his arm and stood erect and raised his hands. "I got de ricklickshun en de blood of de Lamb!" They did not mark just when his intonation, his pronunciation, became negroid, they just sat swaying a little in their seats as the voice took them into itself.
"When de long, cold--Oh, I tells you, breddren, when de long, cold.... I sees de light en I sees de word, po sinner! Dey passed away in Egypt, de swingin chariots; de generations passed away. Wus a rich man: whar he now, O breddren? Wus a po man: whar he now, O sistuhn? Oh I tells you, ef you aint got de milk en de dew of de old salvation when de long, cold years rolls away!"
"Yes, Jesus!"
"I tells you, breddren, en I tells you, sistuhn, dey'll come a time. Po sinner sayin Let me lay down wid de Lawd, femme lay down my load. Den whut Jesus "wine say, O breddren? O sistuhn? Is you got de ricklickshun en de Blood of de Lamb? Case I aint gwine load down heaven!"

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The preacher is describing a vision: “I sees the light.” And later:

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"Breddren! Look at dem little chiller settin dar. Jesus wus like dat once. He mammy suffered de glory en de pangs. Sometime maybe she heft him at de nightfall, whilst de angels singin him to sleep; maybe she look out de do en see de Roman po-lice passin." He tramped back and forth, mopping his face. "Listen, breddren! I sees de day. Ma'y settin in de do wid Jesus on her lap, de little Jesus. Like dem chiller dar, de little Jesus. I hears de angels singin de peaceful songs en de glory; I sees de closin eyes; sees Mary jump up, sees de sojer face: We gwine to kill! We gwine to kill! We gwine to kill yo little Jesus! I hears de weepin en de lamentation of de po mammy widout de salvation en de word of God!"

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And the vision is tied together with human life, its pains, its passions, its sufferings.

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"I sees, O Jesus! Oh I sees!" and still another, without words, like bubbles rising in water.
"I sees hit, breddren! I sees hit! Sees de blastin, blindin sight! I sees Calvary, wid de sacred trees, sees de thief en de murderer en de least of dese; I hears de boastin en de braggin: Ef you be Jesus, lif up yo tree en walk! I hears de wailin of women en de evenin lamentations; I hears de weepin en de cryin en de turns-away face of God: dey done kilt Jesus; dey done kilt my Son!"

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And again his key word is “sees”, “I sees.” And so Faulkner gives us here the key to the novel. To see. So much of the narratives in the novel deal with seeing, whether it’s Luster trying to find his quarter or Quentin’s recalling visions of the past or Jason searching for the man in the red tie or Benjy, at the very beginning of the novel, looking through the slats of fence at the golfers. Faulkner even draws in the text an eye in the last chapter. These, however, are claustrophobic visions. The Reverend’s vision is a transcending vision, a vision that is outside the span of time and place. The fourth chapter is in third person, opening up to a panorama of vision. It is as if now we are seeing the story through the eyes of God.

The first three chapters are interior monologues to emphasize the limited vision of humanity. The very first image of Benjy looking through the fence is the metaphor that shapes the novel. We are looking at the world through slits of a fence, through the eyes of a thirty-three year old, through the mind of a retarded man, through the heart of a child. The first three chapters emphasize that the world, if allowed, can be limited to the self.

And what is Easter but a ritual outside linear time. The “blood of the lamb” is a ritual that binds society. It is in contrast to the self. It is a communal endeavor, a shared vision, a touchstone from which the self has undergone a passage.

I see the three Compson boys (and once I would have included Caddy too, but now I have my doubts) as boys who have failed to undergo a rite of passage into adulthood. Benjy, through no fault of his own, is forever a child and is even castrated; Quentin cannot come to terms with sexuality; and Jason cannot form human relations of the heart. The sexual dysfunction of each is a means for Faulkner to show that to be locked up into one’s self, to not form bonds with the community, is to be severed from humanity. The other key word from the sermon is “recollection.” Recollection, synonym for memory, and that echoes so much of the novel, also is a form of "re-collect". To recollect is to bring back to whole from multiple parts. It is to bind back, and that is what Easter (and Faulkner could have easily picked Passover or Ramadan or other ritualized holidays of any religion) does. It binds us back from our severed (crucified?) selves.

And so we have the tragedy of the Compson family, a family of severed individuals. Faulkner tells the novel in vignettes, which are severed narrative. Benjy, although Christ-like, is not a Christ figure; he will always be a castrated child-man. Quentin, paralyzed by memory and history, drowns forever a virgin, and Jason, a conglomerate of selfish obsessions, is forever severed from humanity through his hatreds. In fact he doesn’t even know it’s Easter Sunday.

In contrast is Dilsey, the embodiment of unselfishness. When she leaves the church after the sermon, tears come to her eyes:

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“Yes, suh. He seed hit. Face to face he seed hit."
Dilsey made no sound, her face did not quiver as the tears took their sunken and devious courses, walking with her head up, making no effort to dry them away even.
"Whyn't you quit dat, mammy?" Frony said. "Wid all dese people lookin. We be passin white folks soon."
"I've seed de first en de last," Dilsey said. "Never you mind me."

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She too sees the vision. She has seen the first and the last, echoing Genesis, the alpha and the omega. She is not a severed individual but one bound to the community and to family. She obtains that vision of the blood of the lamb, and so transcends mortality and it’s limitations and weaknesses.

This has been my sermon. I hope you enjoyed it. Have a Happy Easter Sunday.

I have been busy reading As I Lay Dying and The Age of Innocence recently hence still haven't finished TSATF (just finished reading Benjy's part for the second time). I am somewhat relieved that this part was not as confusing as I thought it would be - although I am sure there are things I have missed and will be clearer to me only after reading the later parts.

I have only quickly scanned the posts so far not to spoil it for myself but could not see any discussions on the title, which I has intruiged me from the start. After conferring with good old google, I have found this:

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The title and some of the imagery in the novel derive from a soliloquy by the title character in Shakespeare’s tragedy Macbeth. In Act V, Scene v, following the death of his wife, and as he begins to realize his dire situation, Macbeth speaks his “Tomorrow” soliloquy:

To-morrow, and to-morrow, and to-morrow
Creeps in this petty pace from day to day
To the last syllable of recorded time,
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
Life’s but a walking shadow, a poor player
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage
And then is heard no more. It is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury
Signifying nothing.

http://www.mcsr.olemiss.edu/~egjbp/f..._sf.html#title

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'A tale told by an idiot' (Benjy - at least initially) it surely is! Also, I am wondering at the 'sound and fury signifying nothing' reference. Is it because of the family and their reluctance to accept the present facts, still clinging to their past ideals even though in present they are irrelevant?

Also, this quote made me think a lot as well. After she gets wet in the river, Caddy climbs up the tree to see what is going on in the house:

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[Versh] went and pushed Caddy up into the tree to the first limb. We watched the muddy bottom of her drawers.

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Even though they are all children when this happens, I find it rather creepy for some reason and wonder if it is some kind of foreshadowing: The boys' 'unnatural' obssession with their sister and, maybe, her future promiscuity (=dirty bottom)? (Am I reading too much into one single sentence?)

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Originally Posted by Scheherazade

I have only quickly scanned the posts so far not to spoil it for myself but could not see any discussions on the title, which I has intruiged me from the start. After conferring with good old google, I have found this: 'A tale told by an idiot' (Benjy - at least initially) it surely is! Also, I am wondering at the 'sound and fury signifying nothing' reference. Is it because of the family and their reluctance to accept the present facts, still clinging to their past ideals even though in present they are irrelevant?

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We have not discussed the title. I don't think it's as simple as saying Benjy is the idiot that provides sound and fury. There are all sorts of sound and fury throughout the novel. here's one off the top of my head: During the Easter sermon, the congregation mutters, "Mmmmm." Certainly sound.

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Also, this quote made me think a lot as well. After she gets wet in the river, Caddy climbs up the tree to see what is going on in the house:Even though they are all children when this happens, I find it rather creepy for some reason and wonder if it is some kind of foreshadowing: The boys' 'unnatural' obssession with their sister and, maybe, her future promiscuity (=dirty bottom)? (Am I reading too much into one single sentence?)

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You are not reading too much into that. The muddy drawers are a key detail. Also you just made me realize something I said in my previous post. The importance to the novel of "seeing." Caddy climbs the tree and sees.

I finsihed the book over Easter and it seems to me the theme of the novels is the powerlessness. I've read a few places that the book had a lot to do with the south after the civil war, there was a powerlessness there also.

Benji was basically powerless over himself.

Quentin was powerless against Caddie she did what she wanted, he couldn't get his father to see the importance of Caddies pregenancy, he tried and fail to threaten Dalton Ames, he didn't do well at school, he didn't even stick up for himself at the police station.

Dilsey - powerless to raise those kids correctly, she did what she could but ultimately Mr and Mrs Compson had the finaly say.

Mr Compson - powerless over alcohol

Mrs Compson - pfftt. she was to busy being ill to deal with anything accept screw Jason up, she pretty much laid the responsibilty for the family at his feet.

Jason - I don't know about that one, but he was always threatening something but he never really did anything. Well besides steal maybe he was powerless over his own greed and hatred.

Quentin was not powerless, she did what she had to do and got out. Perhaps she's the hope for the new south - I read that somewhere.

That's a good observation, Papaya. The novel seems to have more dimensions that I can count.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

We have not discussed the title. I don't think it's as simple as saying Benjy is the idiot that provides sound and fury.

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I did not say that. It seems like Faulkner got the title from Macbeth's 'It is a tale/ Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury/Signifying nothing.' I just thought that the story is also, at least initially, told by an 'idiot' but the rest of the 'sound and fury signifying nothing' reference is still open to interpretation, which I questioned in my previous post.

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There are all sorts of sound and fury throughout the novel. here's one off the top of my head: During the Easter sermon, the congregation mutters, "Mmmmm." Certainly sound.

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I am not sure if Faulkner is referring to simple, literal sounds such as 'mmm' in the title or at least it is not all of it. I haven't finished reading the book yet but to me it is more like the family's arguments and fights with each other as well as their rage against their disappearance as a 'class' in the South; against the changing order of the society. And, maybe, all this matters little to anyone else, hence, 'signifies nothing'.

I am half way through Quentin's chapter and the change is amazing. Even though Benjy was presented to a retarded person, his chapter was much clearer than Quentin's, which makes me wonder if Benjy was autistic rather than mentally retarded. Also, it seemed like Benjy didn't have a sense of time, mixing past and present whereas Quentin seems obssessed with it, listening his watch and clocks, guessing what time it would be, counting the chimes. Not sure what this means (probably signifies nothing!:D) but just an observation.

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Originally Posted by Scheherazade

Also, it seemed like Benjy didn't have a sense of time, mixing past and present whereas Quentin seems obssessed with it, listening his watch and clocks, guessing what time it would be, counting the chimes. Not sure what this means (probably signifies nothing!:D) but just an observation.

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No I think it's more than an observation. Benjy lives in a timeless manner in many respects. Quentin is just the opposite. The shadow (shadows keep coming up in the Quentin section) of history (Southern history, family history) keeps overwhelming Quentin. And so Quentin wants to stop time; freeze it. Suicide is a way of freezing time.

Every time I finish reading this novel, I feel like I need to read it again. Here are some of my thoughts.

Despite being narrated completely by men, I think an important issue in this novel is the situation of women.

To me, the plot (not necessarily the whole novel) hinges on Caddy getting pregnant by (possibly) Dalton Ames. It leads to her marriage to and abandonment by Herbert, which causes Jason's disappointment and resentment; it seems to be the source of the confusion and despair which brings Quentin to suicide; and, of course, it produces Miss Quentin.

Her predicament highlights the double standard in many societies regarding chastity. Unlike the men who can easily escape the consequences of promiscuity, Caddy, like Hester Prynne, cannot avoid the judgement of the world because her "defilement", like the mud on her drawers, is outwardly visible (would the mud on her drawers be visible if she were wearing pants instead of a dress?). Quentin exhibits this double standard quite explicitly. He wished that Caddy was a virgin but at the same time he wished that he wasn't a virgin, perhaps losing his virginity to someone else's sister.

I think someone mentioned Greek tragedy. It's funny how the women in Jason's household stay in their chambers, like in ancient Greek society. Miss Quentin running off with Jason's (and her) money makes me think of Medea's revenge on her Jason by killing his (and her) children. The unfair treatment of women feature prominently in Medea's story, as well.

On another note, the family seems to be a bit of a house divided against itself -- the Compsons (Mr. Jason, Quentin, Caddy, Benjy(?), Miss Quentin (?)) versus the Bascombs (Caroline, Jason). This is emphasized most explicitly by Caroline, but Jason doesn't seem to have much affection for the "Compsons", either. It seems that the "Bascombs" are a lot more concerned with outward appearances and propriety than the "Compsons". Perhaps it reflects the old South versus the new (post Civil War) South.

I have finished Q's section: I loved especially the last few pages, where he remembers his talks with Caddy... Such passion and anger even though it adds up to nothing. Very touching.

Any thoughts on this passage?

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Sir I will not need Shreve's I have sold Benjy's pasture and I can be dead in Harvard Caddy said in the caverns and the grottoes of the sea tumbling peacefully to the waering tides because Harvard is such a fine sound forty acres is no-high price for a fine sound. A fine dead sound we will swap Benjy's pasture for a fine dead sound. It will last him a long time because he cannot hear it unless he can smell it as soon as she came in the door he began to cry

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Originally Posted by papayahed

Benji was basically powerless over himself.

Quentin was powerless against Caddie she did what she wanted, he couldn't get his father to see the importance of Caddies pregenancy, he tried and fail to threaten Dalton Ames, he didn't do well at school, he didn't even stick up for himself at the police station.

Dilsey - powerless to raise those kids correctly, she did what she could but ultimately Mr and Mrs Compson had the finaly say.

Mr Compson - powerless over alcohol

Mrs Compson - pfftt. she was to busy being ill to deal with anything accept screw Jason up, she pretty much laid the responsibilty for the family at his feet.

Jason - I don't know about that one, but he was always threatening something but he never really did anything. Well besides steal maybe he was powerless over his own greed and hatred.

Quentin was not powerless, she did what she had to do and got out. Perhaps she's the hope for the new south - I read that somewhere.

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Papaya, I really like this approach (am thinking one even can write a paper based on it! :D) but there are couple of points that I disagree with. In my opinion, Quentin was powerless in the face of social pressure and also his affection for Caddy.

Also, I do not consider Dilsey powerless at all. It seems like she is the only who manages to keep it together throughout the book and still standing when the book ends. It is kind of ironic that it is a black person who manages this, despite everything they have to endure from the family. It is not Dilsey's responsibility to raise the children; it it the parents who fail them.

Couple of questions floating in my mind as I finished reading:

-Why did Faulkner choose Easter for recording the events? This I find interesting because the family does not seem particularly religious. Even when Caddy gets pregnant, there is no mention of 'sin' but 'shame' it will bring on the family. The only time Mrs C refers to the Bible is when she asks Dilsey to find her copy, which seems carelessly cast aside and there is no proof that she actually reads it.

- What is the significance of the sermon Dilsey attends? If it is a religious reference ('lamb'?), it is lost on me.

- When Dilsey keeps repeating 'I seed de beginnin, en now I sees de endin.', does she refer to the end of the family? I.e., the Compson family have lost all their chance and will no longer be the influential family they had been?

- Do u fink I shud read da Sprknts or sumfing instead of bodering y'all? :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Scheherazade

Papaya, I really like this approach (am thinking one even can write a paper based on it! :D) but there are couple of points that I disagree with. In my opinion, Quentin was powerless in the face of social pressure and also his affection for Caddy.

Also, I do not consider Dilsey powerless at all. It seems like she is the only who manages to keep it together throughout the book and still standing when the book ends. It is kind of ironic that it is a black person who manages this, despite everything they have to endure from the family. It is not Dilsey's responsibility to raise the children; it it the parents who fail them.

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Get that thought out of your mind Scher!! I am not writing a paper!!! :lol:

oh, no doubt the parents definately failed the kids, I was just thinking that Dilsey was powerless to make the kids better. I don't know if that makes sense, she did the best she could by them but ultimately the parents came in a messed them up specifically when she tried to get Jason to leave Miss Quentin alone, he wouldn't and that daft Ms Compson said "Well it's his house now, he's the head let him do what he thinks is best" (to paraphrase of course)

And ya know what else bugs me: The Jason refering to Benjy as "The great American Gelding". I just wanna punch him in the nose!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Scheherazade

-Why did Faulkner choose Easter for recording the events? This I find interesting because the family does not seem particularly religious. Even when Caddy gets pregnant, there is no mention of 'sin' but 'shame' it will bring on the family. The only time Mrs C refers to the Bible is when she asks Dilsey to find her copy, which seems carelessly cast aside and there is no proof that she actually reads it.

- What is the significance of the sermon Dilsey attends? If it is a religious reference ('lamb'?), it is lost on me.

- When Dilsey keeps repeating 'I seed de beginnin, en now I sees de endin.', does she refer to the end of the family? I.e., the Compson family have lost all their chance and will no longer be the influential family they had been?

- Do u fink I shud read da Sprknts or sumfing instead of bodering y'all? :D

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Scher, I answered this in one of the earlier posts. If you disagree, let me know and we can discuss it. Check post #119 on this thread.