About animals

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Originally Posted by Danik 2016

Aplied to animals, "moral" sounds very strange to me because it seems to imply that animals
have a kind of ethical judgment or evaluation of actions. I don´t think they do. Several species have shown themselves capable of cooperation, affection, fairness, emphaty and loyalness, but I don´t think this is the result of a moral positions. I think it is spontaneous. They´ve an amoral innocence.
When I was still a child their appeared a stray cat,which gave birth to three or four kitten in the small room in our backyard. I observed that the bigger kittens drank themselves fat, but the smallest didn´t get any mother milk. So I took it and put it to her tit, so that it might get his share. The next day I found that she had bitten its had of. I was very shocked. I think I never went near that childmurdering monster any more and my faith in the whole animal world was shaken.
Probably the cat simply didn´t believe that the kitten would survive, so she invested in the other ones.

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I was surprised once when I saw a chicken, one of the four I had, eat her chicks as they hatched. But then I also saw one of those four chickens (I could not distinguish them), commit suicide after my bad dog killed her three companions a couple of days previous to that. It was a very deliberate act of slowly walking up to my dog staring him in the face all the while. I was in the garden and saw everything. There was enough time for me to tell my dog "No", but he was a bad dog and I couldn't reach them in time. Of course those chickens were tormenting him when he was on a chain.

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Originally Posted by Danik 2016

Part of the Carnival Parade of "Aguia de Ouro"(The Golden Eagle). The theme of the parade is the defense of animals and this part does homage to the relationship between the homeless and their dogs. Last winter many homeless refused to go to the shelters because they couldn´t take their dogs with them. So the city administration opened a shelter that accepted the dogs too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0b69OHnYk8Q

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That reminds me of the guy who wouldn't go to heaven without his dog.

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Originally Posted by tailor STATELY

http://www.mnn.com/earth-matters/ani...t-raccoon-dogs ...

(Surprised me.)

Morality in animals is mostly anthropomorphism IMHO, though many animals have a gentle nature after domestication... some not so much. Sociality among familial/social lines might be a better term. I am tempted to find a copy of "Beastly Morality: Animals as Ethical Agents"/Jonathan K. Crane https://books.google.com/books?id=Tw...anzees&f=false and https://cup.columbia.edu/book/beastl.../9780231174176

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That book sounds interesting. I'll see if I can find it. I think it is more a matter of definition of what behavior one considers to be moral. Crane's book is not in their bibliography.

One case study they report is about the Rodriguez fruit bat and how one female bat was acting as a midwife to another. Here is a summary of that study: http://www.batcon.org/resources/medi...tmpl=component

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Originally Posted by YesNo

I was surprised once when I saw a chicken, one of the four I had, eat her chicks as they hatched. But then I also saw one of those four chickens (I could not distinguish them), commit suicide after my bad dog killed her three companions a couple of days previous to that. It was a very deliberate act of slowly walking up to my dog staring him in the face all the while. I was in the garden and saw everything. There was enough time for me to tell my dog "No", but he was a bad dog and I couldn't reach them in time. Of course those chickens were tormenting him when he was on a chain.

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I have a feeling, Yes/No, that we often tend to think that we know more about animal psychology than we really do. Were my cat, your dog and the chicken really "bad' or were there special reasons for their behaviour? I think the same applies to that suicidal chicken.
What did it really understand about the whole situation?
Maybe there are books about animal psychology/ animal behaviour that are enlightening on the subject.
It´s the first time I read of a hen? eating her chicken.

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Originally Posted by YesNo

That book sounds interesting. I'll see if I can find it. I think it is more a matter of definition of what behavior one considers to be moral. Crane's book is not in their bibliography.

One case study they report is about the Rodriguez fruit bat and how one female bat was acting as a midwife to another. Here is a summary of that study: http://www.batcon.org/resources/medi...tmpl=component

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Impressive account about the midwife help among bats. It reminded me of the way older and more experienced elephants help their young ones and their inexperienced mothers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0SauNUEw_OU

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Originally Posted by YesNo

That reminds me of the guy who wouldn't go to heaven without his dog.

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Me too!

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Originally Posted by Danik 2016

I have a feeling, Yes/No, that we often tend to think that we know more about animal psychology than we really do. Were my cat, your dog and the chicken really "bad' or were there special reasons for their behaviour? I think the same applies to that suicidal chicken.
What did it really understand about the whole situation?
Maybe there are books about animal psychology/ animal behaviour that are enlightening on the subject.
It´s the first time I read of a hen? eating her chicken.

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Yes, it was the hen sitting on those eggs that hatched. I was hoping to get chicks.

The main reason I picked up the Bekoff and Pierce book was to find answers about why that chicken walked up to the dog. Although the book is interesting, it is mainly a philosophical attempt to justify extending morals to animals, but it stops with mammals and tries to make its case align with Darwinian individualism, which basically is an individual's motivation to pass on genes. I think there is more going on than reproduction in evolution and would look to Niles Eldredge's punctuated equilibria to justify that. So, I am a little disappointed with the book, but it does provide interesting examples. Those elephants you mentioned would be a good example of the cases they are trying to make.

I am very suspicious about books that try to atribute morals to animals. I don´t think animals have the same categories of "good" and "bad" that we have, but again I am not sure even about that.
There might have been a hundred reason, why that chicken walked up to the dog, one of them because it didn´t realise that it was running any danger. It seems this chicken had tormented the dog before and nothing happened.
Some links that may help to a start:
http://articles.extension.org/pages/...poultry-flocks

http://freefromharm.org/chicken-beha...ecent-science/

Cat Big Brother in Island for adoption purposes:
http://nutiminn.is/kattarshians/

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Originally Posted by Danik 2016

I am very suspicious about books that try to atribute morals to animals. I don´t think animals have the same categories of "good" and "bad" that we have, but again I am not sure even about that.
There might have been a hundred reason, why that chicken walked up to the dog, one of them because it didn´t realise that it was running any danger. It seems this chicken had tormented the dog before and nothing happened.
Some links that may help to a start:
http://articles.extension.org/pages/...poultry-flocks

http://freefromharm.org/chicken-beha...ecent-science/

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Those are good links. The second suggests research has grown: "Much of what was previously thought to be the exclusive domain of human / primate communication, brain and cognitive function, and social behavior is now being discovered in chickens and other birds." That's what I think also.

What is "good" and "bad" are not the same as they are for us as for other species.

The chickens as a group tormented the dog. They could see how far the dog's chain reached and would just step over the limit. Also, the vegetation in the way of the chain had all died with the dog jumping at those birds. They would approach the dog outside his reach and then step inside the circle. When he lunged they would quickly turn around. Looking at them, it seemed they were tormenting the dog on purpose. They also played with me while I worked in the garden. I could see them watching me out of the corner of my eye and then when I looked up they pretended to be grubbing for worms. This time the chicken walked slowly looking straight at the dog putting her head out for him to grab which he did eventually. At first he was puzzled. He gave me a look. I could see the bewilderment in his eyes. There was no need to jump to get the chicken. She walked right up to where he was standing close to his doghouse.

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Originally Posted by Danik 2016

Cat Big Brother in Island for adoption purposes:
http://nutiminn.is/kattarshians/

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Hey I was gonna do that... I actually applied to get one of those cats. unfortunately they were all gone, but new cats will move in this week so maybe I'll get another chance. one of the cats is named after our president

I was thinking of you, when I posted this link as the only Litnetter, near enough to apply for one of these cats.
Sorry you were too late but it is important to know that the video is old and not a current one as I thought.
I wish you more luck this time, but if you can´t get one of these cats I´m sure you will find another responsible cat donating instituition.

For American peers who want to adopt a dog or a cat there is an important information. There seem to be lots of animal shelters all over US, but there are also these death rows, where pets are put away if they are not adopted in time.
I don´t know if all shelters work alike, but it is important to know that so you can save one or more lives instead of buying a pet with pedegree.
I'm putting up this link which I just found in Google as example. But not being from US I don´t have any other information about the instituition as the ones on the link:

http://urgentpodr.org/

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Originally Posted by YesNo

Those are good links. The second suggests research has grown: "Much of what was previously thought to be the exclusive domain of human / primate communication, brain and cognitive function, and social behavior is now being discovered in chickens and other birds." That's what I think also.

What is "good" and "bad" are not the same as they are for us as for other species.

The chickens as a group tormented the dog. They could see how far the dog's chain reached and would just step over the limit. Also, the vegetation in the way of the chain had all died with the dog jumping at those birds. They would approach the dog outside his reach and then step inside the circle. When he lunged they would quickly turn around. Looking at them, it seemed they were tormenting the dog on purpose. They also played with me while I worked in the garden. I could see them watching me out of the corner of my eye and then when I looked up they pretended to be grubbing for worms. This time the chicken walked slowly looking straight at the dog putting her head out for him to grab which he did eventually. At first he was puzzled. He gave me a look. I could see the bewilderment in his eyes. There was no need to jump to get the chicken. She walked right up to where he was standing close to his doghouse.

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I think it would be important for you to look better into it to understand better what happened. The facts can´t be changed any more, but maybe you still have a feeling after a long time, that you could have handled the situation differently. I can´t say that being far away in time and space. But there may be different ways to understand this situation.

I assume all pets in shelters are on death row, but that may not be the case.

I also handled the situation with those chickens and that dog poorly. Just about everything went wrong and I was responsible for most of that.

One can always interpret events in different ways.