Dynamic characters in The Crucible

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Originally Posted by Danik 2016

I don´t know very much about the Jews in colonial Brazil. Acording to wiki you are right , they were Sephardic Jews, conversos, yes, or cristãos novos (New Christians). The inquisition could only pursue baptised people so they focused on the descendants sometimes of many generations. Like the witch hunters they had to have their victims. The judgment had to be in Portugal so they sent the visitadores, a kind of agents to Brazil to investigate the heretics. When found guilty (and the interrogated were tortured) they were sent to Portugal for judgment and execution.

Here is a bit more about the Jews in Brazil. The article is probably translated from Portuguese.

http://www.jewishgen.org/InfoFiles/BrazilianJewry.htm

These are ugly chapters of history.

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Thank you for this information, Danik. Yes, the stories can be ugly. In fact, you can't learn much history without developing a fairly low opinion of human nature. But as Gladys says, such things have the potential to bring out the best and worst in people. I always wonder about the stories that were not preserved.

I guess I knew that the Church could only pursue the baptized. One problem (more of an ugly situation) in some parts of the New World was that an Indian community might be baptized because they were curious or didn't fully understand what they were getting themselves into, and when they resumed their earlier practices they became subject to persecution. Personally I find the historical failures of religion (such as the Salem trials) interesting and important, but there is always an ugly human side to such things.

So did Dreaamwoven ever read this play? I thought we were waiting for his comments.

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Originally Posted by Pompey Bum

For me, the most powerful aspect of Miller's play is that he was not only writing about Salem and McCarthyism, but also about things that happen everyday in one way or another in workplaces, schools, churches, and families, and that will as long as people are subject to fear and their own fallen natures.

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So true, because witch-hunts abound.

"I guess I knew that the Church could only pursue the baptized."
To me that wasn´t by any means so clear given the power at that time of the Catholic Church, that´s why I mentioned it.

One problem (more of an ugly situation) in some parts of the New World was that an Indian community might be baptized because they were curious or didn't fully understand what they were getting themselves into, and when they resumed their earlier practices they became subject to persecution."[/SIZE][/SIZE].
Here in São Paulo with had a peculiar situation regarding Indian Conversion. I didn´t mention it before because I didn´t know if you were interested. With the first Jesuit expedition to São Paulo there came a very talented young Jesuit, José de Anchieta. To win the Indians over to the Christian faith he not only learnt Tupi but he also started to compose poems and plays in that language. The plays followed the model of the Portuguese religious Autos. They are mostly alegorical like the early English plays (Pilgrim´s Progress style but mostly in verse form) attempting to aproximate the Christian figures and the Tupi gods. I suppose that these first Jesuites sincerely believed they were saving the souls of the Indians bey converting them to the Catholic faith. The Jesuits were in general the first educators of the new country but in 1759 they were all expelled for political reasons.
I didn´t read anywhere about persecussions of Indians because of apostasy. I don´t know how far they were considered full citizens by Portuguese religious and secular authorities during the colonial period.

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Originally Posted by Danik 2016

Here in São Paulo with had a peculiar situation regarding Indian Conversion. I didn´t mention it before because I didn´t know if you were interested. With the first Jesuit expedition to São Paulo there came a very talented young Jesuit, José de Anchieta. To win the Indians over to the Christian faith he not only learnt Tupi but he also started to compose poems and plays in that language. The plays followed the model of the Portuguese religious Autos. They are mostly alegorical like the early English plays (Pilgrim´s Progress style but mostly in verse form) attempting to aproximate the Christian figures and the Tupi gods. I suppose that these first Jesuites sincerely believed they were saving the souls of the Indians bey converting them to the Catholic faith. The Jesuits were in general the first educators of the new country but in 1759 they were all expelled for political reasons.

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Yes, it's a nasty story. The Jesuits established missionary settlements and the Indians were settled there, taught to read, and told all were brothers and sisters in Christ The missions were protected by Spanish law and the Indians were sheltered from Portuguese slavers. But a European treaty gave the area to Portugal, and the communities were eventually enslaved. What a ghastly thing.

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Originally Posted by Danik 2016

I didn´t read anywhere about persecussions of Indians because of apostasy. I don´t know how far they were considered full citizens by Portuguese religious and secular authorities during the colonial period.

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There was a really shocking case of this in Central America. A Spanish missionary converted a large number of Mayans. Eventually he is supposed to have discovered graphic evidence of a new blood cult (involving child sacrifice) which combined traditional Mayan mythology with the Christian ritual he was teaching them. Whatever happened (opinions differ), he responded with his own inquisition (torture, burnings, etc.) that was so brutal and extensive that he was recalled to Spain and brought before the Spanish Inquisition. Apparently he was giving them a bad name.

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Originally Posted by Pompey Bum

There was a really shocking case of this in Central America. A Spanish missionary converted a large number of Mayans. Eventually he is supposed to have discovered graphic evidence of a new blood c
ult (involving child sacrifice) which combined traditional Mayan mythology with the Christian ritual he was teaching them. Whatever happened (opinions differ), he responded with his own inquisition (torture, burnings, etc.) that was so brutal and extensive that he was recalled to Spain and brought before the Spanish Inquisition. Apparently he was giving them a bad name.

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Was is this one?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diego_de_Landa
But this other information is interesting:
"Crown fiat had earlier exempted indigenous peoples from the authority of the Inquisition, on the grounds that their understanding of Christianity was "too childish"[citation needed] for them to be held culpable for heresies."

Yes, I was talking about de Landa. As your source says, he is also notorious for burning Mayan books. The information about the royal fiat, though unattested, is interesting. (A royal fiat is when something becomes law because a king says so). That may have been the formal policy in Spain, but the Spaniards are notorious for doing their own thing once their ships landed. And the fiat would not have applied in Portuguese territory in any case, which leaves open the question of apostasy in Brazil.

Except in this case, when Spanish Isabel from Aragon was married to a Portuguese prince. And Brasil was seen in that matter as a kind of extension of Portuguese territory.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histor...ws_in_Portugal

Quite a curious marriage though, two children married by proxy:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isabel...en_of_Portugal (corrected the link)

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Originally Posted by Danik 2016

Except in this case, when Spanish Isabel from Aragon was married to a Portuguese prince. And Brasil was seen in that matter as a kind of extension of Portuguese territory.[/url]

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So who was responsible for the royal fiat* and when? Did it ever apply to Brazil?

*And don't say the Royal mechanic. :)

And certainly not the royal children!

That´s not an easy question, PB. Possibly the noblemen and church people who arranged the wedding of Isabel, made of the expelling of the Jews one of the conditions for the royal marriage. As for Brazil, those were early colonial times. There wasn´t an independent government yet, so what applied to Portugal automatically aplied to Brazil.

But we are sayling miles away from The Crucible and its dynamic characters :). I wonder if the OP is still around...

The OP probably got an A on his paper and will never be heard from again. What I want to know is where Dreamwoven got off to. I thought we were waiting for him to finish the play. You there, DW?

In the meantime, I think we are talking about different things. I meant: who made this fiat about exempting Indians from apostasy because (supposedly) they were too simple to understand it, when was it made, and did it apply to Brazil? My hunch is that it may have been something on the books, but that it was only applied when needed (as in the case of de Landa). But I don't really know.

I see! Aparently it didn´t apply to Brazil. I found some articles in Portuguese that stated that Brazilian Indians were persecuted by the Inquisition but without giving nearer details of legislation or numbers.

That's really sad (but more or less what I expected).

Maybe we should PM Dreamwoven...

I agree with you.

I think DW will turn up on his own when he wants to join the discussion :). It is possible that he hasn´t received the book yet.