God Speaking...anyone listening?

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Originally Posted by WyattGwyon

Creating a being you know for an absolute certainty will perform a precise series of actions with a precise set of consequences is the very definition of predestination!

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I couldn't find your definition in any of the dictionaries.
In the Merriam-Webster Dictionary, the definition of predestination is, "the belief that everything that will happen has already been decided by God or fate and cannot be changed". If you'll notice the words "decided by God"...that's the part of the definition you're not acknowledging. God didn't make any of man's decisions. God knew about them but he didn't make man's decisions for him. Just because that's a difficult concept for our finite minds to grasp doesn't mean we can go and change it to fit what is easier for our minds to grasp.

Does it say anywhere in the Bible that God is omniscient? He's perspicacious all right, but he still seems so miffed with the children of Israel when they do wrong. More of "I can't believe you really did that!" rather than "Oh well, I always knew you were going to do it."

I don't think the words "omniscient" and "omnipresent"
appear in the Bible but these verses are the same thing:

He knows all things - Psalm 147;4-5
He is all-powerfu -l Matthew 19:26
He is present everywhere - Matthew 28:20;
He always has been and always will be -Psalm 90:1-2
He does not change Malachi 3:6
He'll never leave us - Hebrews 13:5
He's the same yesterday, today, and forever - Hebrews 13:8

But I understand what you're saying mona. I sometimes wonder if God wants to block his all-knowing powers regarding man's decisions for or against Him so that he can parent mankind...like teaching, loving, guiding, fellowshipping, conversing through His Word and prayer, etc etc. We won't know all the answers until we are someday in eternity with Him.

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Originally Posted by Melanie

... Mike Hulme ... (He is a highly intelligent and respected scientist and professor of Climate Change in the School of Environmental Science. He has said of his Christian faith, "I believe because I have not discovered a better explanation of beauty, truth and love than that they emerge in a world created - willed into being - by a God who personifies beauty, truth and love.")

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Looking at his Wikipedia page, his career isn't very distinguished, certainly nowhere near as distinguished as Dawkins, Hawking, et. al. He doesn't even appear to be a FRS. But well done in finding a religious professor of science! They are few and far between. Dawkins in "The God Delusion" spends several pages looking at the "Argument from Admired Religious Scientists" in the God Delusion. If Hulme ever gets to be a FRS he'll find himself in a small club, only 3% of FRS level scientists believe in a personal God.

His statement of belief can't be taken seriously. It leads me to think he might have been working too hard on that big climate report that's just come out. It's like saying: "I believe in the tooth fairy because I have not discovered a nicer idea than a little fairy lady who gives me money when I have a toothache."

I tracked down his statement of belief to the New Statesman.

http://www.newstatesman.com/religion...h-world-belief

New Statesman spent several months trying to find leading public figures in Britain who were believers, and came up with a very sad list. It starts with the leading non-intellectuals Cherie Blair and Jeremy Vine, probably because the other "public figures" aren't well known enough to be called "public".

Also, consider Mehdi Hasan who actually believes Mohammed flew on a winged horse to heaven:

http://www.newstatesman.com/religion...h-world-belief

From Wikipedia: Mehdi was, "appointed senior editor (politics) at the New Statesman in late spring of 2009, where he stayed until May 2012... He became a presenter on Al Jazeera's English News Channel in May 2012."

"...the office will certainly be a quieter place without him." - Jason Cowley, editor of the New Statesman

So the winged horse didn't go down too well with the owners :).

Interesting that Dawkins was made a guest editor later that year, in an issue that included the final interview with Hitchens:

http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/th...chens-catholic

"I have one consistency, which is [being] against the totalitarian - on the left and on the right. The totalitarian, to me, is the enemy - the one that's absolute, the one that wants control over the inside of your head, not just your actions and your taxes. And the origins of that are theocratic, obviously. The beginning of that is the idea that there is a supreme leader, or infallible pope, or a chief rabbi, or whatever, who can ventriloquise the divine and tell us what to do." - Christopher Hitchens

So it's not god speaking, it's some ventriloquist; watch out for those lips moving!

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Originally Posted by Melanie

I couldn't find your definition in any of the dictionaries.
In the Merriam-Webster Dictionary, the definition of predestination is, "the belief that everything that will happen has already been decided by God or fate and cannot be changed".

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This definition describes the same state of affairs as mine. Look past the words to the concepts.

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Originally Posted by Melanie

If you'll notice the words "decided by God"...that's the part of the definition you're not acknowledging. God didn't make any of man's decisions.

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God (if omniscient, omnipotent, and paying attention to what he was doing) made all of man's decisions. In the act of creating every individual he knowingly and willfully caused all of their actions to be performed.

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Originally Posted by Melanie

Just because that's a difficult concept for our finite minds to grasp doesn't mean we can go and change it to fit what is easier for our minds to grasp.

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The problem isn't that it is a difficult concept to grasp. The problem is that it is nonsense, internally contradictory that is.

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Originally Posted by mal4mac

...But well done in finding a religious professor of science!

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Oh, there are many in addition to Mile Hulme. Don't let yourself be too buried in your "God Delusion" book not to notice the rest of the world out here. I've noticed multiple posts where your "Dawkin's God Delusion" is sounding like a broken record. No offense, just pointing out that it's noticeably redundant. I'm redundant too sometimes. In fact, I've posted a link in another thread with these religious men of science listed so I'm not pointing fingers.

John Lennox is a mathematician, philosopher of science and pastoral adviser. His works include the mathematical The Theory of Infinite Soluble Groups and the religion-oriented God's Undertaker – Has Science buried God? He has also debated religion with Richard Dawkins. He teaches at Oxford.

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And to Wyatt Gwyon, I respectfully disagree. I stand firm with my post #31

It occurs to me that if I knew everything that every living thing had done in the past and is doing in the present, I could make good enough guesses about the future to seem omniscient.

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Originally Posted by Melanie

I don't think the words "omniscient" and "omnipresent"
appear in the Bible but these verses are the same thing:

He knows all things - Psalm 147;4-5
He is all-powerfu -l Matthew 19:26
He is present everywhere - Matthew 28:20;
He always has been and always will be -Psalm 90:1-2
He does not change Malachi 3:6
He'll never leave us - Hebrews 13:5
He's the same yesterday, today, and forever - Hebrews 13:8

But I understand what you're saying mona. I sometimes wonder if God wants to block his all-knowing powers regarding man's decisions for or against Him so that he can parent mankind...like teaching, loving, guiding, fellowshipping, conversing through His Word and prayer, etc etc. We won't know all the answers until we are someday in eternity with Him.

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One of your best citations, Melanie, Omni-scient is another word for all-knowing.
Sorry that I quoted you the way I did earlier. I didn't want to quote the separate first part of the message, so I got lazy. LOL

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Originally Posted by Melanie

Oh, there are many in addition to Mile Hulme...

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In the full survey of FRS 213 were unbelievers and 12 believers ("The God delusion" p. 102)... doesn't sound like many to me.

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John Lennox is a mathematician, philosopher of science and pastoral adviser. His works include the mathematical The Theory of Infinite Soluble Groups and the religion-oriented God's Undertaker – Has Science buried God? He has also debated religion with Richard Dawkins. He teaches at Oxford.

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Who? It's easy to dig out minor scientists who believe in God. Keep digging, you'll find some who believe in the spoon bending power of Uri Geller, some who think spiritualist mediums are "for real", and who knows what else. The big question is: do their arguments for God's existence hold up.

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Originally Posted by mal4mac

In the full survey of FRS 213 were unbelievers and 12 believers ("The God delusion" p. 102)... doesn't sound like many to me.



Who? It's easy to dig out minor scientists who believe in God. Keep digging, you'll find some who believe in the spoon bending power of Uri Geller, some who think spiritualist mediums are "for real", and who knows what else. The big question is: do their arguments for God's existence hold up.

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Ridiculous. At least get rid of the freaks. The plainly stupid would not argue with so much BS, although it is enough. No believer can actually argue the existence of God. Our belief is based on the impossibility of discarding the unresolved and unresolvable mystery of life. We must either believe or deny there is a mystery.
Regarding the freaks, of lower intelligence than even the stupid, I'll have to go with Robin Williams: "If they are psychic, why do they need a phone number?"

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Originally Posted by cafolini

No believer can actually argue the existence of God. Our belief is based on the impossibility of discarding the unresolved and unresolvable mystery of life. We must either believe or deny there is a mystery.

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I don't see the necessity to believe or deny. Why not just live with the mystery?

mal4mac, you never heard of the religious science professor Mile Hulme, and the mathmetician/science philosopher Lennox...so you deemed them "minor"?? I guess it's all relative because I never heard of Dawkins until you brought him up...should I therefore deem him "minor"?

Regarding the existence of God being a mystery:

God's existence is not a mystery to me
I see proof daily all around me
in every breath I take
in every human relationship
in every gift of love, joy, kindness
in everything I learn
every word, every smile
looking into someone's eyes and seeing their soul
i could go on and on...
Show me the scientific evidence for those things.

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Originally Posted by Melanie

mal4mac, you never heard of the religious science professor Mile Hulme, and the mathmetician/science philosopher Lennox...so you deemed them "minor"?? I guess it's all relative because I never heard of Dawkins until you brought him up...should I therefore deem him "minor"?

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I looked Hulme up and he seems an average professor, no Nobel prize, not even an FRS. Ditto for Lennox. They have also had little involvement with the religion vs. atheist debate in the UK. Dawkins usually seeks out the "real deal" to argue with (Archbishop of Canterbury, Chief Rabbi,...), not minor leaguers. Though as Lennox is in Oxford I guess he's easy to use as a sparring partner...

Have you really never heard of Dawkins? How did you avoid him? He's always on TV, and in leading newspapers in the USA and UK. You should read his wikipedia page, at least, just for the sake of "general culture". I think most people would hold him to be the highest profile atheist of the last decade.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Dawkins

"In a poll held by Prospect magazine in 2013, Dawkins was voted the world's top thinker based on 65 names chosen by a largely US- and UK-based expert panel." Just over half of voters came to the world thinkers homepage via Twitter or Facebook, so you are likely to encounter a lot of people who hold Dawkins in high regard if you float around social media sites.

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Originally Posted by Melanie

mal4mac, you never heard of the religious science professor Mile Hulme, and the mathmetician/science philosopher Lennox...so you deemed them "minor"?? I guess it's all relative because I never heard of Dawkins until you brought him up...should I therefore deem him "minor"?

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I looked Hulme up and he seems an average professor, no Nobel prize, not even an FRS. Ditto for Lennox. They have also had little involvement with the religion vs. atheist debate in the UK. Dawkins usually seeks out the "real deal" to argue with (Archbishop of Canterbury, Chief Rabbi,...), not minor leaguers. Though as Lennox is in Oxford I guess he's easy to use as a sparring partner...

Have you really never heard of Dawkins? How did you avoid him? He's always on TV, and in leading newspapers in the USA and UK. You should read his wikipedia page, at least, just for the sake of "general culture". I think most people would hold him to be the highest profile atheist of the last decade or two.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Dawkins

"In a poll held by Prospect magazine in 2013, Dawkins was voted the world's top thinker based on 65 names chosen by a largely US- and UK-based expert panel." Most voters came to the world thinkers homepage via Twitter or Facebook, so you are likely to encounter a lot of people who hold Dawkins in high regard if you float around social media sites.

If you had read my post #42 regarding why God is not a mystery to me, you would know why I have no desire nor purpose for reading about Dawkins. There are more things to learn of "general culture" that I would consider "best use of my time".

Regarding the existence of God being a mystery:

God's existence is not a mystery to me
I see proof daily all around me
in every breath I take
in every human relationship
in every gift of love, joy, kindness
in everything I learn
every word, every smile
looking into someone's eyes and seeing their soul
i could go on and on...

Show me the scientific evidence for those things...this could take awhile :Yawn: