does religion/God give people a voice?

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Originally Posted by SFG75

All of the items listed, even religion, give people a voice. You can't state that religion doesn't and give a free pass to politics, education, and literature. I can think of instances in all of those realms where ideas were squashed or that oppression occurred. Humans are prone to make mistakes and given our nature of that, it is nature to conclude that we will mar to some extent, those things which do give us a voice. Religion is inspirational and can bring the best out in people. I've witnessed a service and seen a couple married 50 years struggle to kneel for communion, I've also seen a faithful couple struggle with the health of a terminal child, or the loss of a loved one. You can look for the exceptions in things, or the reality. I understand the bad that is done in the name of religion, but there is more to it if you are willing.

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Nice post, but it doesn't address the question at all.

The kind of thing would be Pope Franky's desire to drive change within the Roman church, based on what people want. If it works, it will be that church's first case of listening to the people in about 1800 years, so it's a nice change.

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Originally Posted by Melanie

The only religion that doesn't listen is the religion of...Atheism. If they listened to all things of creation, really listened, they would hear God.

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First off, atheism isn't a religion. There are no rules, no membership criteria, no tithing, nothing to worship even. Trying to call it a religion has been tried a few times, has been found to be completely spurious, and pretty outdated in 2013.

As to "listening to creation", it may surprise you that scientific atheists are actually extremely good at that. Where do you think they would have heard a god? Do you think the god is there but atheists don't want to look for her/him/it?

If that's the case, how do you explain the ever-increasing number of former fervent believers who grow out of their belief?

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Originally Posted by The Atheist

First off, atheism isn't a religion. There are no rules, no membership criteria, no tithing, nothing to worship even. Trying to call it a religion has been tried a few times, has been found to be completely spurious, and pretty outdated in 2013.

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"calling it a religion has been tried a few times"?? This arguement started back in 1871 with Edward Burnett Tylor. So call it outdated if you'd like but I call it all a part of history and is now reflected in Merriam-Webster's dictionary, defined as, "an interest, a belief, or an activity that is very important to a person or a group...a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith" (definition #4).

Whether you like it or not, you are part of a group that shares a belief. You share an incredible amount of faith to believe that science created the ability to love, and to reason, etc etc. Science is your god. Look how you worship science in all the many threads you post in. One more thing, you're not really listening.

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Originally Posted by Melanie

"calling it a religion has been tried a few times"?? This arguement started back in 1871 with Edward Burnett Tylor. So call it outdated if you'd like but I call it all a part of history and is now reflected in Merriam-Webster's dictionary, defined as, "an interest, a belief, or an activity that is very important to a person or a group...a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith" (definition #4).

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Must be a different M-W dictionary to the one I have which says nothing like that at all: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/atheism

Or Yahoo!/American Heritage: http://education.yahoo.com/reference.../entry/atheism

Or Collins: http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dic...nglish/atheism

In fact, try as I might, I cannot find a description that matches what you say. Every dictionary I know of describes atheism as a lack of belief, or as an alternative description, a doctrine of disbelief. There are definitely some atheists who use it as a doctrine, but they are in a small minority, and I hope I don't have to explain at a literature forum how dictionaries work.

You are just wrong.

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Originally Posted by Melanie

Whether you like it or not, you are part of a group that shares a belief.

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See above. You can think what you like, but it won't change the fact that atheism is recognised by every scholar and thinking person as a lack of belief.

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Originally Posted by Melanie

You share an incredible amount of faith to believe that science created the ability to love, and to reason, etc etc.

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How did science create an ability to love? Or reason?

I'm 100% confident those things existed long before science.

You seem to be very confused about what science actually is, because it has nothing whatsoever to do with science. Some atheists - like David Icke - are completely anti-science. I think Icke is insane, but he's still an atheist.

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Originally Posted by Melanie

Science is your god. Look how you worship science in all the many threads you post in. One more thing, you're not really listening.

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You're also confusing respect for evidence and the scientific method with belief. As to listening, I repeat, to what/whom should I be listening?

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Originally Posted by The Atheist

Must be a different M-W dictionary to the one I have which says nothing like that at all...In fact, try as I might, I cannot find a description that matches what you say. Every dictionary I know of describes atheism as a lack of belief, or as an alternative description, a doctrine of disbelief. I hope I don't have to explain at a literature forum how dictionaries work. You are just wrong.

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No need to be condescending since we're respectful adults here, right? I posted the definition of "religion" (in post#32) and noted that it was for the word, "religion"...not "atheism". That's why you couldn't find anything under atheism. Here's the link for the definition (see both #4s since I quoted both). Now you can take your foot out of your mouth :smile5:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/religion

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Originally Posted by The Atheist

How did science create an ability to love? Or reason? I'm 100% confident those things existed long before science.
You seem to be very confused about what science actually is, because it has nothing whatsoever to do with science.

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Exactly, the ability to love and to reason came from God. Science isn't even mentioned in the Bible.

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Originally Posted by The Atheist

As to listening, I repeat, to what/whom should I be listening?

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And I repeat, listen to creation. Walk outside. Use all your god-given senses (sight,sound,touch,taste,smell) and listen to creation. Really listen. Did you know that plants respond to music? You won't be able to deny an intelligent designer.

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Exactly, the ability to love and to reason came from God. Science isn't even mentioned in the Bible.

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I object your honour, hi Melanie :)
I personally think the ability to love is inane/natural/instinctive to humans. it is human to love. God is only part of it as we are part of them god/goddesses. god is a woman and also a man.
science distracts from religion and if it is not mentioned in the bible it is because it wants to. It is tomake a point.

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Did you know that plants respond to music?

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why would plants want to listen to music? what would be the reason?
there is a reason to everything. I might as well say the cloud listen to music too. :)

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Originally Posted by Melanie

I posted the definition of "religion" (in post#32) and noted that it was for the word, "religion"...not "atheism".

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Then it's a great shame your response was directed at whether atheism was a religion.

Try reading what you actually wrote rather than what you think you did.

As long as you understand that atheism isn't a religion, I'm quite happy.

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Originally Posted by Melanie

Exactly, the ability to love and to reason came from God.

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Then so did evil, Satan, paedophiles, rapists, famine, war & parasites that eat children's eyeballs.

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Originally Posted by Melanie

Science isn't even mentioned in the Bible.

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Yet science continues to work. Some scientists actually believe in a god - you do know that, right?

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Originally Posted by Melanie

And I repeat, listen to creation. Walk outside. Use all your god-given senses (sight,sound,touch,taste,smell) and listen to creation. Really listen. Did you know that plants respond to music? You won't be able to deny an intelligent designer.

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Please provide evidence that plants respond to music.

Note that even if they did, there is nothing abnormal about plants responding to stimuli - have you never watched a flower open in the sunlight?

As to listening and looking at all creation, I do that frequently. I look up at the sky at night, gaze at galaxies hundreds of light-years away and wonder how anyone can believe a single entity would create such an enormous thing - the universe - to only allow one infinitesimal portion of it to be used. Conversely, I look at amoebae under a microscope and wonder how people can believe an omnipotent, omnipresent, loving entity would design one of them capable of eating your brain.

I do laugh when theists tell me to look at creation, because it's pretty obvious it's not something they do themselves. Not with their brains open, anyway.

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Originally Posted by The Atheist

Then it's a great shame your response was directed at whether atheism was a religion.

Try reading what you actually wrote rather than what you think you did.

As long as you understand that atheism isn't a religion, I'm quite happy.



Then so did evil, Satan, paedophiles, rapists, famine, war & parasites that eat children's eyeballs.



Yet science continues to work. Some scientists actually believe in a god - you do know that, right?



Please provide evidence that plants respond to music.

Note that even if they did, there is nothing abnormal about plants responding to stimuli - have you never watched a flower open in the sunlight?

As to listening and looking at all creation, I do that frequently. I look up at the sky at night, gaze at galaxies hundreds of light-years away and wonder how anyone can believe a single entity would create such an enormous thing - the universe - to only allow one infinitesimal portion of it to be used. Conversely, I look at amoebae under a microscope and wonder how people can believe an omnipotent, omnipresent, loving entity would design one of them capable of eating your brain.

I do laugh when theists tell me to look at creation, because it's pretty obvious it's not something they do themselves. Not with their brains open, anyway.

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I would have to agree with you atheist, as I do with atheists that are theists. They all are. But it is a mystery and that subject you hardly touched. So you are indeed religious in your obstinacy, just like any of the other hypocrites behind theological disguises. However, you have some virtue in being informative instead of substituting the incredible (the truths that do not require credulity) with the credible.

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Originally Posted by cafolini

I would have to agree with you atheist, as I do with atheists that are theists. They all are. But it is a mystery and that subject you hardly touched. So you are indeed religious in your obstinacy, just like any of the other hypocrites behind theological disguises.

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If I had any idea at all what you mean here, I'd gladly answer whatever question it is you think I've avoided, but it is incomprehensible to me.

Maybe you could try expressing it better and I'll have a go.

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Originally Posted by The Atheist

Then it's a great shame your response was directed at whether atheism was a religion.

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My comment was much firmer than that. I said "like it or not, you're part of a group that shares a belief" and that's the definition of religion according to the link I posted for Merriam-Webster, http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/religion

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Originally Posted by The Atheist

Some scientists actually believe in a god - you do know that, right?

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Do you mean God or "a god". Big difference. Yes, many scientists believe in God. Tells you something, doesn't it? Then they give credit where it makes the most sense instead of to a mud puddle that came into existence for no rhyme nor reason. Rather than to put their faith in that they've chosen to put their faith in God. You choose mud puddle, they choose intelligent designer. God gave us all an ability to make choices

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Originally Posted by The Atheist

Please provide evidence that plants respond to music.

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You're a big boy, google it and you will find many many studies on it. Plants also respond to our voices. Discovery Magazine put plants in 3 separate rooms for several months....one room was silent, one room had classical music, and one room had rock music I think. the silent room plants were sickly and growth was stunted. I can't remember if they found a difference between the types of music but other studies have found that plants don't like rock music as much as classical and pleasant music.

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Originally Posted by Melanie

My comment was much firmer than that. I said "like it or not, you're part of a group that shares a belief" and that's the definition of religion according to the link I posted for Merriam-Webster, http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/religion

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Unfortunately, (and unsurprisingly) you're still refusing to accept that atheism isn't a belief.

Please do attempt to describe what you allege atheists believe.

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Originally Posted by Melanie

Do you mean God or "a god". Big difference.

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No, I advisedly used "a god", because some scientists believe in the christian god & Jesus, some believe in the Abrahamic god of Judaism, some in the Abrahamic god as "Allah" others in Vishnu & Ganesha, Sikhs in Ik Onkhar, Zoroastrians in Zoroaster, and rastas in Ras Tafari.

I know you think your god is the only one, but there are billions of people who would disagree with you and I'm an equal-opportunity atheist.

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Originally Posted by Melanie

Yes, many scientists believe in God. Tells you something, doesn't it?

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Doesn't tell me any more than David Icke being an atheist, or that a lousy 97% of NAS scientists are atheist or agnostic. Popularity confers no truth value.

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Originally Posted by Melanie

Then they give credit where it makes the most sense instead of to a mud puddle that came into existence for no rhyme nor reason.

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Crickey! How come I never looked at it like that? It makes so much sense to just ignore 10,000,000,000 years of evidence and think that some entity came along with a wand and wished everything into existence. Very sensible concept - kind of god as Hermione Granger. I like it already!

I only have one query regarding the god-as-designer concept: why did he/she/it bother to create the 98% of all kinds of like that have already died out? Wasn't that a bit wasteful? Or did a few turn out wrong the first time? The way I look at it, since the god kept evil, Satan, bilharzia worms, etc, it couldn't have been too hard to keep the dinosaurs, mammoths & unicorns going.

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Originally Posted by Melanie

You're a big boy, google it and you will find many many studies on it. Plants also respond to our voices. Discovery Magazine put plants in 3 separate rooms for several months....one room was silent, one room had classical music, and one room had rock music I think. the silent room plants were sickly and growth was stunted. I can't remember if they found a difference between the types of music but other studies have found that plants don't like rock music as much as classical and pleasant music.

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Nope.

You made a claim - you provide the evidence. That's how it works.

What is "pleasant" music? Who is the arbiter of it? Is hard rock by christian bands singing about Jesus pleasant or unpleasant?

You do raise most excellent questions, I'll give you that. Who knows, you may even answer some of them!

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Originally Posted by The Atheist

You do raise most excellent questions...Who knows, you may even answer some of them!

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No, call this a "random drive-by shooting" :biggrin5: ...I'm gone.
I don't argue for long, especially with someone condescending and sarcastic.

1. I don't need to tell you what atheists believe, you know. And I'm well aware of what your weak argument is that it's not a belief.
2. I already told you there's a big difference between God and "a god". You didn't need to explain it to me.
3. whatever (cafolini, these numbers all reply to the 6 comments in above post #40)
4. God has a perfect plan that we will someday understand...in His time.
5. Discovery Magazine/Channel's experiment was my proof. As I stated, if you want more there's tons at the tip of your google fingers
6. The hard rock sound is unpleasant to plants but the christian lyrics are pleasant

"No, call this a random drive-by shooting...I'm gone." You should say "case closed." LOL

3. whatever
What?

4. God has a perfect plan that we will someday understand...in His time.
We might. Clues are not dues, though.

6. The hard rock sound is unpleasant to plants but the christian lyrics are pleasant
I have them trained for heavy metal. But they are third generation. That's true.

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Originally Posted by Melanie

1. I don't need to tell you what atheists believe, you know. And I'm well aware of what your weak argument is that it's not a belief.

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I'm sorry you won't be back to defend the outrageous idea that all atheists think or believe .............., because I know lots of atheists and they all pretty well believe in something different.

I'll just consider your failure to answer is down to you not having anything to back up what you've typed.

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Originally Posted by Melanie

2. I already told you there's a big difference between God and "a god". You didn't need to explain it to me.

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Of course, because your view is right.

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Originally Posted by Melanie

5. Discovery Magazine/Channel's experiment was my proof. As I stated, if you want more there's tons at the tip of your google fingers

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Again, refusal to give evidence because none exists. Discovery Channel/Magazine are not evidence.

Well, actually they might be evidence, but not of any scientific value. They are pretty good evidence that some people choose not to believe known facts, however.

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Originally Posted by Melanie

6. The hard rock sound is unpleasant to plants but the christian lyrics are pleasant

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So, instead of growing faster, they grow sideways in confusion?

I assume that by 'God' Melanie means Zeus, the chief god of the only TRUE religion?

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Originally Posted by Oedipus

I assume that by 'God' Melanie means Zeus, the chief god of the only TRUE religion?

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actually Oedipus how many gods do you think there are altogether?
and also if you do not mind me asking
why did you use Oedipus as a username? :)