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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowsCool
Consider this...
John 18:5-6
Considering that the "He" in italics is not in the original text, I believe that He said, "I am". So what made the troops fall back to the ground?Quote:
They answered Him, “Jesus of Nazareth.”
Jesus said to them, “I am He.” And Judas, who betrayed Him, also stood with them. 6 Now when He said to them, “I am He,” they drew back and fell to the ground.
One of my favorites. I'd say it's the power of God! And yes I do believe He said "I Am" also. In other words, "I Am" He. The One!Quote:
Originally Posted by BienvenuJDC
I'm not going to argue with anyone about this. But I believe God is wondrous, we simply are limited in our knowledge and must be satisfied that faith is enough to carry us through. God never said he'd play at part in what happens to us, but he did say he'd love us and walk next to us. When no one loved me God always did! Amen to that!
You won't get any arguments by me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Buh4Bee
But there is only one true Gospel. The rest are lies. They are feel-good Gospels that people like to hear. The reason why I bring this up is, these people love themselves more than the truth. Many of the churches today serve man rather than God. It's a scam.
Do not mistake discussion for arguing. In an argument, people make no effort to see the other's point, and ignore everything that doesn't fit their beliefs. In a discussion, people air their differing views without prejudice from others involved, and try to find common ground.Quote:
Originally Posted by Buh4Bee
From what I have seen on this thread, most of us agree that there is a God whom we worship. We are in agreement that God created the world. We should not then fall out over the nature of the Godhead, just believe and serve God to the best of our ability.
I have received nothing but respect for what I have posted, and I trust I have been polite with others.
Here's my advice for what it is worth. Learn about the other people's religious beliefs; it does little good for example, for a Christian and a Muslim to discuss things, if they have no idea what the other believes with the exception that they do not believe the same way. If they know where they disagree, questions may be asked as to why the other believes that way. Otherwise you have an argument with both sides spewing religious quotations and boiling with anger.
I have always felt that the best religious statement I have heard outside the Bible came from Charles Schultz, speaking as Snoopy. In the comic strip, Schultz has Snoopy writing a religious epistle. The title is: "Has It Ever Occurred to You That YOU Could Be Wrong? Discussion is healthy for that, to hear differing opinions and asking ourselves are we sure we are right. Let God guide, and you follow.
God bless
Pen
yes u will go in ur grave and i'll go in my grave. so lets wait for that together. certainly with the will of my Lord i'll ask u there whose source of knowledge was without any error?Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowsCool
here are some those verses which i promised to share with u guys from the chapter Al imran. very clear, understandable, and simple realtion of Jesus and our Lord.
Birth of Mariyam33 .
Allah did choose Adam and Noah, the family of Abraham, and the family of 'Imran above all people,-
34 . Offspring, one of the other: And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.
35 . Behold! a woman of 'Imran said: "O my Lord! I do dedicate unto Thee what is in my womb for Thy special service: So accept this of me: For Thou hearest and knowest all things."
36 . When she was delivered, she said: "O my Lord! Behold! I am delivered of a female child!"- and Allah knew best what she brought forth- "And no wise is the male Like the female.I have named her Mary, and I commend her and her offspring to Thy protection from the Evil One, the Rejected."
37 . Right graciously did her Lord accept her: He made her grow in purity and beauty: To the care of Zakariya was she assigned. Every time that he entered (Her) chamber to see her, He found her supplied with sustenance. He said: "O Mary! Whence (comes) this to you?" She said: "From Allah. For Allah Provides sustenance to whom He pleases without measure."
Some verses about Jesus Christ42 .
Behold! The angels said: "O Mary! Allah hath chosen thee and purified thee- chosen thee above the women of all nations.
43 . "O Mary! Worship Thy Lord devoutly: Prostrate thyself, and bow down (in prayer) with those who bow down."
44 . This is part of the tidings of the things unseen, which we reveal unto thee (O Messenger.) by inspiration: Thou wast not with them when they cast lots with arrows, as to which of them should be charged with the care of Mary: Nor wast thou with them when they disputed (the point).
45 . Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honor in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah.
46 . "He shall speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. And he shall be of the righteous."
47 . She said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?" He said: "Even so: Allah createth what He willeth: When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, 'Be,' and it is!
48 . "And Allah will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel,
49 . "And an apostle to the Children of Israel, (with this message): "'I have come to you, with a Sign from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by Allah's Order: And I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I quicken the dead, by Allah's Order; and I declare to you what ye eat, and what ye store in your houses. Surely therein is a Sign for you if ye did believe;
50 . "'(I have come to you), to attest the Law which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was (Before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear Allah, and obey me.
51 . "'It is Allah Who is my Lord and your Lord; then worships Him. This is a Way that is straight.'"
52 . When Jesus found Unbelief on their part He said: "Who will be My helpers to (the work of) Allah." Said the disciples: "We are Allah's helpers: We believe in Allah, and do thou bear witness that we are followers.
53 . "Our Lord! we believe in what Thou hast revealed, and we follow the Messenger. Then write us down among those who bear witness."
54 . And (the unbelievers) plotted and planned, and Allah too planned, and the best of planners is Allah.
55 . Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.
56 . "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."
57 . "As to those who believe and work righteousness, Allah will pay them (in full) their reward; but Allah loveth not those who do wrong."
58 . "This is what we rehearse unto thee of the Signs and the Message of Wisdom."
59 . The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be".And he was.
I have always loved these passages from the Qur'an ever since they were shared with me. God can create ANYTHING. He is omnipresent, everywhere at once.Quote:
Originally Posted by usman.khawar
Muslims believe in the Virgin Birth of Jesus Christ, that God created the body of Jesus in the womb of Mary. I believe the same, but I believe that God himself lived in this body.
Thanks for sharing usman!
God bless
Pen
Its a tough thing to put into word's. I like to think of it as the lord's presence.
Too much of it can be very overwhelming. I like physical representations of our lord in the flesh for this reason. Presented in physical form God is easier to take. But of course you need the holy spirit. It is God too.
Its complex.
True that, Pen! :D To Lear and discuss is what I love. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Pendragon
I have delved into this subject with you many times before. I'm not here to convert you or you I. Your authority is the Koran, mine is the Bible. The Bible clearly teaches that Jesus was God; Almighty God, what have you.Quote:
Originally Posted by usman.khawar
Those scriptures that you bring up are totally unsupported by the Bible. They are not mere errors you purport, they are in total opposition to biblical teaching.
You keep bringing up these "errors" in the Bible. As if Mohammed came along 700 years later and got a vision from God to correct these "man-made" errors. And you honestly expect me to believe you?
For your information, I have extensively "checked" "done" my own research on the New Testament; specifically its origin, sources, what have you, and must say, I am satisfied by what I found. All the books of the New Testament jive perfectly with all the other books of the New Testament and the old for that matter. The New Testament quotes the Old Testament faithfully. Plus it forcefully shows how Jesus was the promised Messiah. What the Koran has done is built a whole new gospel, one without God of the Bible.
To imply that some bogeyman came up and wretched the scriptures is not supported. As far as I know, there is only one scripture - 1 John 5:7 - in the New Testament that is in question. And to my mind that has been satisfied. It was done so to imply what that scripture was indeed saying, not changing it.
The scriptures also teach the Holy Trinity. Because you cannot accept that is not my issue. If you want to believe that some prophet came along 700 years later and got all the answers right, that's for you. For me, I believe the Bible is the final authority and that's where my heart rest.
Now I can blow holes through the Koran, and I'm not afraid to do so. But I've been told not to do that. It is not my purpose to do such a thing at this time.
But apart from divine inspiration; as sober individuals, let us look at one simple fact: The Koran rest on one man living in a cave 700 years after the Bible was completed. The Bible was written over a period of about 1600 years with 40 different authors. I finally rest my case.
I'll leave on this: Revelation 22.18,19 "I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book."
1 . Say : O ye that reject Faith!Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowsCool
2 . I worship not that which ye worship,
3 . Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
4 . And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship,
5 . Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
6 . To you be your Way, and to me mine.
Everyone has to give his answer in his/her grave and at dooms day. talk to u later there as allah also said "Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute" i put my case in front of Him..
.. :)
OK my friends:
ShadowsCool: Have you ever actually read the Qur'an, or are you just parroting what you have been taught? I have read the Qur'an and while I disagree with most of it, I have found points and scriptures with which I do agree. I am a Christian, and I would never make a good Muslim. Tearing down others beliefs is a very poor way to witness.
usman.khawar: Have you ever actually read the Bible, or are you also parroting what you have been taught? The same thing applies, tearing down others is no way to witness.
You see, the time comes when a person must believe because they are convinced, not just tag along with others beliefs. Jesus said "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
Each of you must ultimately come to a place where your questions concerning scripture will drive you to seek God for yourself. As Job said while enduring his torment: "Job 19:[25] For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
[26] And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
[27] Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me."
Conviction had set in. There was now no doubt in Job's mind, for he had had a revelation for himself, personally. This is what a believer must find, God personally for themselves. Conviction of just who God is and how He works in the heart of the individual.
The Love of God be with you both, I would be honored to call each of you friend.
God bless
Pen
First of all, nothing against you personally.Quote:
Originally Posted by usman.khawar
I do not reject faith!
My faith happens to be different from your faith.
Paul has taught me,
Galatians 1:6-10 "I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; 7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! 9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!"
Your gospel teaches that Jesus was a creature created by God.
My gospel teaches me that Jesus was the creator and was God.
Why should I abandon my heart for yours?
I am not looking to put you down or make myself better. I believe in what I believe.
Let us just let it go and be well.
Shadows
Pen, of course, we are friends. I know where your coming from and hopefully you I. Having said that, I often wonder, what part of any gospel would not someone take a liking to? Most teach virtuous values to be good and love one another. That does not mean, I will go to those gospels because of these points. Are we not supposed to obey the ten commandments anyway? Of course we are.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pendragon
Have I read the Qu'ran? No. Do I know enough about their central themes? Yes I do.
Do they not teach a different gospel than what Paul teaches? Yes.
Do they not teach that my Lord is but a creature? Of course they do.
Do they deny his Crucifixion, death and Resurrection? They do.
So am I supposed to just shake this off and deny my own faith? Not in a million years.
What more do I need to know about the Qu'ran?
I'm certainly not parroting what I have been taught. Should I prove myself that I know the scriptures? Can't you tell that I know the scriptures?
My belief's don't hinge on understanding; it hinges on clarity of heart! Should I deny the Spirit that moves within me?
I'm not one to engage in the "bashing fest" and "demeaning debates" that tend to happen on the religion thread here, But would love to help you in any way I can as this is something I to struggled with and I struggle to teach my youth group to their understanding. You are welcome to Pm me anytime. But I would leave you with this concept. If we could put God in a box, and say we know everything about him and have him 100% figured out Would he really be God?
www.bible.cc
http://www.hebrew-streams.org/works/...-to-ghost.html
Bible cc is a great place that offers a parell of the hebrew/greek/and every translation that there is so that you can see what words differ and better help you find translation errors vs discrepencys. IE the word begotten in the common John 3:16 does not mean his only born son, the word is actualy monogenes in the greak, meaning a son of special, unique, elect status.
My best advice would be (as much as I love everyone on here) be skeptical of anything you are told, even from me, double check- treat it as a lie until you confirm for yourself that it is true. its okay to doubt, As it makes you stronger to know what you believe in vs what you think you should believe in to fit a title.