Religious Rituals

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Calidore

That probably goes back to the Old testament prohibition against idolatry also. Worship the Presence, not the physical.



This is the first I've ever heard of Jesus existing as part of a Trinity before his conception, let alone all the way back to Creation. Wasn't he brought into existence as a human aspect of God to take the burden of the sins of Man? Where is he mentioned in the early Bible (aside from prophets foretelling his birth and activities as a human)?

---

No. Created by God? Brought into existence as a human aspect of God? No!
He had to be God in order to take on our sins. Jesus has been mentioned to have created everything. How could He be created himself?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cacian

If Jesus died for all sins then isn't this idea reading into the future that people will sin?
In other word is this premaditating 'sin', something one may or may not commit?
and where does tha leave those who do not sin ?

---

All people have sinned. Past, present, future. Since our forefathers begot us with sin, we are all with a sinful nature.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cacian

If Jesus was betrayed and then killed how could he have died for someone else's sin?
He did not have the power to stop himself from being killed and yet he makes it to be a sin affair and comes back to life again three days later. Was it mentioned anywhere that he would rise from the dead?
That would have been a proof that he had godly power to tell his apostles that he would rise again in the same way that he tells them he knew he was going to be killed or die?
I mean did he say he was going to die or be killed?
Thanks!

---

He had the power to stop Himself from being killed. But He had to fulfill His purpose while on earth. That is, to take on sin and be put death for sin; so that all who believe in Him will have life. Otherwise, we'd all have no savior. He was the sacrifice.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cacian

No I am not. I am me. I have nothing to do with hindus. I don't understand their religions especially the worshipping of animals such as cows. I find that most strange.

---

Haha -you mistake me Cacian. I was merely jesting with you.

Just to say that Hindu's don't worship animals, but some of the Gods appear with animal attributes such as Ganesh who has the head of an elephant. Cows were part of the creation myth, and that is why they are protected and revered.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ShadowsCool

All people have sinned. Past, present, future. Since our forefathers begot us with sin, we are all with a sinful nature

---

but surely this is not right...not everyone is a sinner in the same way not everyone is English.
I have not sins and have no sinned and so why should I feel pressured to think that one is already a sinner before they are even born?
It is a shady prospect if everyone is labelled with a sin...surely that is not what life or Jesus is about...forgive me I do not mean to be rude but I strongly object to being accused of sinning when I have not.

Quote:

---

He had the power to stop Himself from being killed. But He had to fulfill His purpose while on earth. That is, to take on sin and be put death for sin; so that all who believe in Him will have life. Otherwise, we'd all have no savior. He was the sacrifice.

---

I see. This is where it all becomes rather dense for me.
I cannot get to grips with this bit.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cacian

but surely this is not right...not everyone is a sinner in the same way not everyone is English.
I have not sins and have no sinned and so why should I feel pressured to think that one is already a sinner before they are even born?
It is a shady prospect if everyone is labelled with a sin...surely that is not what life or Jesus is about...forgive me I do not mean to be rude but I strongly object to being accused of sinning when I have not.

---

It is right. Surely it is impossible for someone not to have sin. Sin by definition is doing something contrary to God. I assure you, everyone who ever walked the earth has done things contrary to God.

People may think they are without blemish but they are fooling themselves. Just as good works cannot get you into heaven. Because all are laden with sin. Everyone one of us. I, you, everyone! This is what Christianity teaches.

Now if someone doesn't believe in Christianity, that's another thing. Then they go on their merry way of sinning. But I assure you, we all are conceived in sin.

This is why we need to have faith in Jesus who was a guilt offering, taking our sins with us to the grave. So that our bodies may die but our spirit will live.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cacian

I see. This is where it all becomes rather dense for me.
I cannot get to grips with this bit.

---

A perfect God had to take upon our sins so that we may be presentable to God. Those who don't believe bare their sins on their own and will be found guilty and thrown in hell.

Cacian, you've never lied to someone, even a white lie? Never thought sexually about someone you're not married to? Never cheated in a game of cards or a board game, even if when a child? All those are sins. Like Shadows said, by Christian definitions (and if looking through the lens of Christianity), we are all sinners. The rules set forth by Christianity make it impossible not to be, therefore making the whole Christian religion necessary.

As to my thoughts on rituals . . .

I always have mixed feelings when I see Catholic rituals. They're so grand, with the whole spectacle: the clothes, the huge churches, the chanting. But at the same time I shake my head because it seems so antiquated, like they're stuck so far in the past (of course, I guess that's one of the points of rituals). It also always makes me think, "aren't they the ones who took vows of poverty?"

One ritual I've always found creepy is communion, when people are eating and drinking the body of Christ. Of course I don't actually believe the wine and pieces of bread are magically transformed into his body and blood, but some do, and then they eat it. As far as I'm concerned, Catholics have no room ro criticize cannibalism.

One ritual I've always been confused on is Easter, particularly the whole bunny hiding eggs in one's yard part. Where did that come from? I assume, like the ritual of the Christmas tree, it has it's roots in paganism, but I don't know the specifics. For that matter, I don't really know how the whole Santa Clause thing was started, either.

Quote:

---

=Mutatis-Mutandis;1136481]Cacian, you've never lied to someone, even a white lie? Never thought sexually about someone you're not married to? Never cheated in a game of cards or a board game, even if when a child? All those are sins. Like Shadows said, by Christian definitions (and if looking through the lens of Christianity), we are all sinners. The rules set forth by Christianity make it impossible not to be, therefore making the whole Christian religion necessary.

---

Everything you have described I consider the norms/mistakes people because no one is perfect but then what is the real meaning of sin?

Quote:

---

As to my thoughts on rituals . . .

I always have mixed feelings when I see Catholic rituals. They're so grand, with the whole spectacle: the clothes, the huge churches, the chanting. But at the same time I shake my head because it seems so antiquated, like they're stuck so far in the past (of course, I guess that's one of the points of rituals). It also always makes me think, "aren't they the ones who took vows of poverty?"

---

I absolutely agree the amount of wealth and golds the catholic/pope have is beyond description and yet they think they can have a say on poverty.

Quote:

---

One ritual I've always found creepy is communion, when people are eating and drinking the body of Christ. Of course I don't actually believe the wine and pieces of bread are magically transformed into his body and blood, but some do, and then they eat it. As far as I'm concerned, Catholics have no room ro criticize cannibalism.

---

I agree it is a bit spooky.

Quote:

---

One ritual I've always been confused on is Easter, particularly the whole bunny hiding eggs in one's yard part. Where did that come from? I assume, like the ritual of the Christmas tree, it has it's roots in paganism, but I don't know the specifics. For that matter, I don't really know how the whole Santa Clause thing was started, either.

---

Very good questions and may be someone can shed lights on the easter bunny and the tree.
I think one thing about easter is I do not understand the shifts in dates because chirstmas is dated but not easter.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mutatis-Mutandis

One ritual I've always been confused on is Easter, particularly the whole bunny hiding eggs in one's yard part. Where did that come from? I assume, like the ritual of the Christmas tree, it has it's roots in paganism, but I don't know the specifics.

---

:D Yes sir, Easter is a spring revival festival. It was for thousands of years, and still is, celebrated as the rebirth of Spring, so symbols of fertility and birth are rampant (new life comes from eggs, fresh pastel-colored flowers spring from the earth, new blades of grass poke out of the dirt, rabbits hump excessively and theirs is the first species of the year to birth offspring), and chocolate is a part of Easter because it's a sweet treat which evokes a sense of childhood (spring is when nature is just born again after winter's apparent "death," the earth itself is as a child, so it's a very child-like time). It wasn't ALWAYS chocolate, chocolate is new, but we've always eaten plenty of sweet childish treats like honey cakes at the Spring holiday.

Many modern pagan revivalists call Easter "Ostara" to dissociate from the Christian holiday, which I guess is fine if that's what they want to do but I don't think it's necessary. "Ostara" is a new word which has no basis in classic religion, and "Easter" already contains themes of rebirth on it's own, as does the Christian Easter story (ie. the "resurrection" of Jesus), so it's all just themes and symbols and stories of rebirth and resurrection. The celebration of the Spring Equinox, the rebirth of Spring, has always contained these themes, symbols and stories, it's never ceased since the dawn of recorded history, and now it's all just blended together.

It's a wonderful holiday, don't you just feel like celebrating when you see the first buds forming on the trees and blades of grass poking up, and the water rushing through the streets like little rivers from the melted snow, and feel the first rain washing all the dust away, and see the sun in the sky later than four in the afternoon? ...Well, maybe it's more poignant for people in the north, which might be why Northern civilizations have always celebrated the Spring Equinox more exuberantly than those further south.

Regarding Santa, he's a sort of god which we've borrowed from Eastern Europe. My boyfriend loves Santa's mythology and has studied it extensively, I'll talk about it later maybe.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Paulclem

I gradually came to realise that the ritual gives structure to your practice.

---

this sentence of urs seems more realistic to me..

in islam, if a person dont have knowledge, specially remembrance of Lord, at the time of rituals (daily 5 time prays etc), there is no benifit of it rather it become worst in view of God the One and only who enters night into day and day into night, who produce life from dead, and dead from life. . who says that worst beast like people are those who perform rituals(ibadat) without knowledge and do not use their intellect.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by usman.khawar

this sentence of urs seems more realistic to me..

in islam, if a person dont have knowledge, specially remembrance of Lord, at the time of rituals (daily 5 time prays etc), there is no benifit of it rather it become worst in view of God the One and only who enters night into day and day into night, who produce life from dead, and dead from life. . who says that worst beast like people are those who perform rituals(ibadat) without knowledge and do not use their intellect.

---

Hi usman interesting you mention the knowledge.
Here in the UK the knowledge is a test you take to become a professional taxi driver ( black London Cabbies) I just thought I'll mention that haha,
on a different note how do you mean one does not have knowldege of the lords do you mean ones that does the abultions and the prayers and deos not believe in them?
Youmention intellect? how is one to use their intellect with relation to God for example?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JuniperWoolf

:D Yes sir, Easter is a spring revival festival. It was for thousands of years, and still is, celebrated as the rebirth of Spring, so symbols of fertility and birth are rampant (new life comes from eggs, fresh pastel-colored flowers spring from the earth, new blades of grass poke out of the dirt, rabbits hump excessively and theirs is the first species of the year to birth offspring), and chocolate is a part of Easter because it's a sweet treat which evokes a sense of childhood (spring is when nature is just born again after winter's apparent "death," the earth itself is as a child, so it's a very child-like time). It wasn't ALWAYS chocolate, chocolate is new, but we've always eaten plenty of sweet childish treats like honey cakes at the Spring holiday.

Many modern pagan revivalists call Easter "Ostara" to dissociate from the Christian holiday, which I guess is fine if that's what they want to do but I don't think it's necessary. "Ostara" is a new word which has no basis in classic religion, and "Easter" already contains themes of rebirth on it's own, as does the Christian Easter story (ie. the "resurrection" of Jesus), so it's all just themes and symbols and stories of rebirth and resurrection. The celebration of the Spring Equinox, the rebirth of Spring, has always contained these themes, symbols and stories, it's never ceased since the dawn of recorded history, and now it's all just blended together.

It's a wonderful holiday, don't you just feel like celebrating when you see the first buds forming on the trees and blades of grass poking up, and the water rushing through the streets like little rivers from the melted snow, and feel the first rain washing all the dust away, and see the sun in the sky later than four in the afternoon? ...Well, maybe it's more poignant for people in the north, which might be why Northern civilizations have always celebrated the Spring Equinox more exuberantly than those further south.

Regarding Santa, he's a sort of god which we've borrowed from Eastern Europe. My boyfriend loves Santa's mythology and has studied it extensively, I'll talk about it later maybe.

---

Quite interesting. Thanks, Juniper.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cacian

Hi usman interesting you mention the knowledge.
Here in the UK the knowledge is a test you take to become a professional taxi driver ( black London Cabbies) I just thought I'll mention that haha,
on a different note how do you mean one does not have knowldege of the lords do you mean ones that does the abultions and the prayers and deos not believe in them?
Youmention intellect? how is one to use their intellect with relation to God for example?

---

For example as Prophet Abrahim Did. i explained it many times namely abrahim methodology who 1st of all rejected gods of his time and recogonize actual Lord using his intellect.

jews's child is jews, christians and muslims's is christian and muslim respectively. same is in other cases. children see their parents doing rituals, they dont think about the inner connection with God, self-realization, and God's presence. they never think about God, what He wants from us? why i am here in this world? why i m giving the unique quality of intellect over billions of creatures? what is the top priority of my intellect? who made the 1st man or ist of every species.? so many questions but mainly one " am i slave or liberal ? if there is a God then how can it be possible that i can claim myself liberal ?

knowledge is not concern only to become professional taxi driver , in other cases as well its needed :) ...