It's Your Time You're Wasting by Frank Chalk

I wonder how much of the behavior is due to parents?

Do you think that the behavioral issues in our schools is directly a result of the fact that parents have abdicated their role in properly disciplining their children, while insisting at the same time upon removing the ability of teachers and school administrator to act appropriately in their place?

And I wonder if... as a result we have a generation of students who do not learn discipline at home, and who know that teachers can't do anything to them at school?


As I ponder it more, I think parents are to blame.

This book is obviously written from the perspective of a teacher working in the UK, and others may have a different experience in their respective countries, but it does highlight a major problem that cannot be covered up by 'statistics ' or the self-deception of those who think that it was always like this. It wasn't.
The main problem is a lack of discipline and this is as a direct result of the post WW11 attitude inculcated by the 'We're the masters now', idiots that took over the UK in 1945. Dismantling the existing system was what they were about in the name of a spurious equality, and the result is what we have now.
Abandoning discipline in schools tends to lead to undisciplined adults with the results that are obvious for anyone to see, and those responsible will keep dreaming up various 'excuses' rather than admit that they were, and still are, wrong.
Until we return to a disciplinary system, there will be no respite from many of the problems afflicting the population as a whole.

An elderly lady I know, in her 80s, told me that when she was a little girl, parents always took the side of the teachers. There was no point in ever trying to convince your parents that the teacher was wrong. And then, one of the worst things about getting into trouble and getting thrashed in school was that when you went home and your parents found out that you'd been in trouble in school, they would thrash you again when you got home.

And what some teachers used to do when kids talked in class - is they would pick up these old-fashioned chalk board erasers and just hurl them at the kids' heads. Some of the old-maid school teachers had really good aim and could hit right in the face. If you didn't want to be clobbered hard in the face you didn't talk in class.

This lady also told me that her mother made her kneed bread every day after school for one hour, and she hated it. She says, though, that she's glad now her mother made her do it.

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Originally Posted by Vonny

An elderly lady I know, in her 80s, told me that when she was a little girl, parents always took the side of the teachers. There was no point in ever trying to convince your parents that the teacher was wrong. And then, one of the worst things about getting into trouble and getting thrashed in school was that when you went home and your parents found out that you'd been in trouble in school, they would thrash you again when you got home.

And what some teachers used to do when kids talked in class - is they would pick up these old-fashioned chalk board erasers and just hurl them at the kids' heads. Some of the old-maid school teachers had really good aim and could hit right in the face. If you didn't want to be clobbered hard in the face you didn't talk in class.

This lady also told me that her mother made her kneed bread every day after school for one hour, and she hated it. She says, though, that she's glad now her mother made her do it.

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Get ready for the usual suspects in denial, who weren't even born then, to tell you that the old lady is wrong, before producing the usual statistics and telling you that she was wearing rose-tinted glasses.
Here's an example based on my own experience. When I was about nine-years-old, a Mr Bassnet, who lived close by, complained to my parents that I had been making a noise outside his house and had taunted him when he remonstrated. My parents made me apologise before kicking me indoors and forbidding me to go out for the rest of the day; I never annoyed Mr Basnett again.

In old days, of course teachers were seen as absolute symbols of authority and knowledge: simply because they were so. Teachers were among the lucky few who actually went to school (beyond the elementary stage) and acquired some "knoweldge" and, in most cases, parents felt they had to trust the teachers' judgement.

However, things have - luckily - changed. Now, parents have expectations and are able to ask questions. This is not to say, of course, that there are some who take advantage of this opportunity or even abuse the system but, looking at the bigger picture, I think it is great that teachers are accountable and challenged in this way too.

Generalised statements placing the blame on teachers, parents or students without any fair justification or merely based on examples from half a century ago are nothing but... generalised statements lacking persuasion... Especially if they are coming from those who have no parenting or teaching experiences.

Education of a child (or an adult, for that matter) should not be under sole control of a teacher and all parties involved (student, teacher, institution, parents etc) should have a say in the matter.

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Originally Posted by Scheherazade

In old days, of course teachers were seen as absolute symbol of authority and knowledge simply because they were so. Teachers were among those who actually went to school (beyond the elementary stage) and acquired some "knoweldge" and, in most cases, parents felt they had to trust the teachers' judgement.

However, things have - luckily - changed. Now, parents have expectations and are able to ask questions. This is not to say, of course, that there are some who take advantage of it or even abuse the system at times but, looking at the bigger picture, I think it is great that teachers are accountable and challenged in this way too.

Generalised statements placing the blame on teachers, parents or students without any fair justification or based on examples from half a century ago are nothing but... generalised statements lacking persuasion... Especially if they are coming from those who who have no parenting or teaching experiences.

Education of a child (or an adult, for that matter) should not be under sole control of a teacher and all parties involved (student, teacher, institution, parents...) should have a say in the matter.

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A family friend of ours is a supply teacher, and she has some pretty horrific stories about parents involving themselves in the education process. She says, though I don't know whether she is exaggerating, that some teachers are extremely reluctant to hand out (justified) detentions and poor marks, as the parents will often turn up at the school and have a slanging match with them.

It's true that parents should have expectations, but it is also true that they should be reasonable, and the parents should not be undermining the authority of the teacher.

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Originally Posted by Lokasenna

A family friend of ours is a supply teacher, and she has some pretty horrific stories about parents involving themselves in the education process. She says, though I don't know whether she is exaggerating, that some teachers are extremely reluctant to hand out (justified) detentions and poor marks, as the parents will often turn up at the school and have a slanging match with them.

It's true that parents should have expectations, but it is also true that they should be reasonable, and the parents should not be undermining the authority of the teacher.

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This usually happens when there are no clear guidelines for objection processes. Schools should have procedures in place for students and parents to express their grievances; do you want your child to be at the mercy of a teacher without the assurance that you will be able to ask questions and understand why your child has been given detention? That does not necessarily mean that you always think your child does no wrong or that you are against your child receiving such "punishment". Parents need to know what has happened to be able to deal with it.

Having said that, there are of course those who step on the boundaries but we cannot let those few give all the parents a bad name. Just like we do not wish to blacken the teaching profession all together because of some bad apples.

Thankfully I don't have to deal much with parents myself, but in my experience and observation if you have parental support you have half a chance, if you don't, you have none. If a parent has not bothered to installed clear boundaries of right and wrong from an early age then they will not listen to a teacher.

The main problem in schools of this type, the ones that Frank is talking about and representative of thousands across the country, is clearly behaviour and a general lack of common sense as expressed. Work ethic is also a big problem in the bottom half schools, where the hand out culture is all to evident and highly detrimental.

The third major problem (though in a way they are all linked of course) is the entertainment Vs education debate. It is not enough to educate today. (In fact a good teacher who tries to carry out tried and tested methods of learning is likely to get side-lined and will certainly get low OFSTED rating during observation, thus threatening their careers.) This is not helped by the modern instant gratification culture, which is shortening attention spans and modern policy, which simply feeds into this because it is easier than dealing with the issues involved.

I was amazed the other day when I flipped through a typical text book that was ten years old. I couldn't believe the size of the extracts for standard comprehension exercises, some were as long as 5 or 6 pages in length! Flip through a modern text book of similar style and you will find this reduced to 1 page, 2 at the most and often just one paragraph, all of which will include dramatic images and never ever plain text. Even this is too much for today's students, and cries of "I'm not reading all that" are all too common.

Last week at my school Y11s took mock exams in English. I asked about 11 or 12 of them afterwards how they had got on. Now what do you expect they said? Too hard, too easy, OK but struggled on question 4? Ran out of time? This is what I foolishly expected. No. "It was boring" was the response of just about all of them. It was boring? It was an exam what did they expect? One even seriously asked me if they could have music playing next time to make it more interesting. I'm not joking.

I don't really blame them because, teachers following policy, are forced to do everything except dress as bananas in order to entertain and not educate, in order to "engage" students' interests and compete with X-Boxes and other instant gratification devices. Now, I'm all for stimulating and exciting lessons of course, but some things just have to be learned and the real world is not all singing and dancing, some things are "boring" but necessary or involve hard work and dedication. But then schools of this type, just do not aim to prepare children for life in the real world at all. Of this they do a good job.

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Originally Posted by Scheherazade

In old days, of course teachers were seen as absolute symbols of authority and knowledge: simply because they were so. Teachers were among the lucky few who actually went to school (beyond the elementary stage) and acquired some "knoweldge" and, in most cases, parents felt they had to trust the teachers' judgement.

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Yes, they had gained knowledge of teaching, which was their function , but beyond that, they were also skilled in their individual subjects. All of my teachers were university graduates and knew their respective disciplines thoroughly. That was why parents felt they could trust in their judgement but it isn't true that the parents had no other recourse, because in cases where something needed to be discussed about an individual's conduct, parents were invited by the school's headmaster to discuss the issue.

I think there is a lot of exaggeration as to the lack of instruction at school, as well as the lack of ability of the parents to dialogue with teachers and correct problems. Of course those who are in what I call the paranoid express will disagree with me. But I think the school system is better than ever, more flexible than ever and injecting knowledge more than ever. Discipline is no longer an issue as it should have never been. The most important thing in a person's life is motivation and that cannot be taught one way or the other, least of all imposed. And most likely, under the current programs, that's what flourishes a lot more in the long run.

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Originally Posted by cafolini

I think there is a lot of exaggeration as to the lack of instruction at school, as well as the lack of ability of the parents to dialogue with teachers and correct problems. Of course those who are in what I call the paranoid express will disagree with me. But I think the school system is better than ever, more flexible than ever and injecting knowledge more than ever. Discipline is no longer an issue as it should have never been. The most important thing in a person's life is motivation and that cannot be taught one way or the other, least of all imposed. And most likely, under the current programs, that's what flourishes a lot more in the long run.

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With that I can tell you haven't been inside one of UK's 'sink' schools in the last 10-15 years. Either that or you set school policy - or both!

Believe me there is no exaggeration, all the horror stories you read about here are for real, I wish it were otherwise.

Discipline is essential in education and life in general. If you haven't got the discipline to start then you have got no hope, you might as well preach to the wall.

Motivation is essential, as I said above, agreed. Most of this comes from parents who instil this in their child, which brings us back to the parents again and the area in which they live.

Granted there are some great schools out there for which the system is fine. I've been to them and seen them myself. I once taught a class of Y8s and it was like I'd been transported to a different planet, a different universe and not just 5 miles the other side of town (where the life expectancy is 8 years higher!)

No, if I was you I'd read the book if you want to know what it's like without stepping into class. It's much safer.

Of course you are going to have places where poverty drives and you have problems based on that. But the people in those places never had a chance before and they have to evolve.
I think motivation comes long before discipline. The latter is a matter of training.
Even the toughest guys in the US Armed Forces will tell you. You don't become a Seal through discipline. They'll tell you that they can only make it if they are highly motivated first, not later. Yet, looking at the results, people most often think that the discipline comes first. You see it in every sphere. People try and try to get motivated through discipline. They fail miserably.

Previous to this Frank had fallen into the rookie error of writing "YOUR NAME" on the board of which several students had of course done just that, and proceeded to write "YOUR NAME" on the front of their labels, complete rookie error, but always amusing.

I almost spit my coffee out reading this.:smilielol5: So American students aren't the only ones this dumb. I cannot tell you how often I have told the class... repeatedly... "Put your name in the upper right hand corner of your painting"... and then I wrote "Your Name" on my example on the board in the appropriate place, turning again to the students and telling them... repeatedly... "Now don't write the words "Your Name" but rather Dionte or Lakesha or Debresha or whatever your name is." I'll even tell them how some student in every class... in spite of all my instructions... will write "Your Name" on their paper, and they all laugh at how stupid this sounds... and yet invariably one or two kids in every class will still put nothing but "Your Name" at the top of the paper and with 40 students in a room and only 40 minutes (subtracting the 5 minutes to settle down... if I'm lucky, and the 5 minutes to clean up) I simply cannot write all of their names for them.

I don't know how I missed this thread until now. I'll be browsing over the next day or so.

:wave:

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Originally Posted by Neely

Last week at my school Y11s took mock exams in English. I asked about 11 or 12 of them afterwards how they had got on. Now what do you expect they said? Too hard, too easy, OK but struggled on question 4? Ran out of time? This is what I foolishly expected. No. "It was boring" was the response of just about all of them. It was boring? It was an exam what did they expect?...

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I used to find exams an interesting challenge. Perhaps teachers shouldn't tacitly agree with students that exams are inherently boring.

Did you ask them why they found the exam boring? Was it too hard for them? Instead of admitting their lack of capability did they sublimate their discomfort? Or was the exam just too easy? Or were they just parroting a sad mantra?

Why not get them to write an essay - "Why I find exams boring"/"Why I find exams interesting"?

Oh yes Stluke's the "Your Name" thing is certainly not only to be found in American schools. Last week we spent 20 minutes trying to get a class of Y10s (14/15 year olds) to write their name on the right-hand side of a piece of paper and the title in the middle - total nightmare - "no Shaney, that's the left hand-side, the right-hand side" etc, etc followed by the title mantra of "the title's on the board, the title's on the board" etc, etc, typical day...

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I used to find exams an interesting challenge. Perhaps teachers shouldn't tacitly agree with students that exams are inherently boring.

Did you ask them why they found the exam boring? Was it too hard for them? Instead of admitting their lack of capability did they sublimate their discomfort? Or was the exam just too easy? Or were they just parroting a sad mantra?

Why not get them to write an essay - "Why I find exams boring"/"Why I find exams interesting"?

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I believe they were bored because they had to read a whole article (4/5 paragraphs in length) about the environment. In short, they just don't like reading anything because it is deemed to be "boring".

The exam wasn't too easy and most of them didn't answer all the questions, so there's no sublimation going on.

I think they just miss the purpose of exams which is to test them, not to entertain. Most kids think that everything is there to entertain so they often get confused. Teachers didn't tacitly agree with the boring bit. Getting them to write an essay is a bad idea because that involves writing, so it is no, no. They don't like writing either. Writing is boring.