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Shea: Paul didn't use Pianos or Organs... is it sinful to play those in worship to God? Honestly... this is rediculous. I don't think it is sinful to worship God using electric gutars and electronic music. I find it distasteful... because I don't like the style of music... but I can find nothing wrong with it. If you think that a different length of a soundwave offends God... then I am not sure you are playing with a full deck of cards.
Once again..., these are the only references to music for worship in the New Testament.
Ephesians 5: 19
Speak to one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs. Sing and make music in your heart to the Lord,
Collosians 3:16
Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom, and as you sing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God.
Now, when you take along the references in the Bible that talk about not adding or taking away from the scriptures, such as
2 Timothy 3: 16 and 17
16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
or Revelation 22: 18 and 19
18I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
and other examples given to us, you'll find that instruments are not allowable. Unfortunately, man feels that he can improve upon God and that is how we get all our denominations. Honestly, it's easier to just study the Bible than to investigate all the different religions that are out there. And like I said before, studying the Bible is like baking a cake. If you forget a little thing like eggs, the cake will run out all over the oven. Of course the cake is ruined; so is it goes it goes with our souls. That's why it really bugs me when someone claims to know God and Jesus and has never even read the Book that tells them how! That's like someone reading cliff notes to one of our books and then trying to talk about the book on this site as if they read the whole thing!
Shea, are you ready?
I have not found any passage in the New Testament that explicitly forbids instrumental music. You cite passages that tell us to make music in our hearts. They do not, I repeat, DO NOT prohibit instrumental music. They don't even mention it. How do you prohibit without mentioning?
I know of several lists of sins, but instrumental music is not one of them.
HOw logical is it to suppose that if we have music in our hearts, it will not burst forth in instrumental as well as vocal music? Or, are you saying that we should keep all our music bottled up inside, and never even sing?
As you yourself mention, instrumental music was permitted in the Old Testament. But it was not merely permitted, it was commended. For brevity's sake, I give only one example out of many:
Ps 33:2 - Show Context
Praise the LORD with harp: sing unto him with the psaltery and an instrument of ten strings.
Yes, the restrictive laws of the OT are no longer imposed on the NT believer. But can you show me whare Jesus said that the freedoms of the OT are also taken away? My understanding is that we have greater, not less, liberty now.
1Co 10:29
Conscience, I say, not thine own, but of the other: for why is my liberty judged of another man's conscience?
2Co 3:17
Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
Ga 2:4
And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:
Ga 5:1
Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
So, I turn your own criticism back on you. When you try to abolish instrumental music from Christian worship, you are guilty of adding to scripture. You wish to put a yoke on modern Christians that Christ abolished.
I tell you the truth. God loves music. He invented it, and from the beginning, the stars sang together. (That one works two ways -- figurativley because the stars represent the angels, and literally because the stars emit tones that can be picked up and measured.) His creation is full of music. Birds sing, yes, but in scripture we read of trees and hills clapping their hands with joy before the creator. If you were to succeed in muting the voices of all he saints, then the rocks would cry out.
Remember what happened on the first Palm Sunday? (One account is found in Matthew 21.) The children sang Hosanna. The Pharisees asked Jesus if he couldn't silence them. He said that God himself had ordained that day of spontaneous worship.
Shea,
I want to know: where in the New Testament you find a complete order of worship?
I'm sure if I attended your church, I'd find people doing things doing things that Jesus did not specifically instruct us to do as part of the worship service. I might also find people omitting to do some of the things Jesus commended.
So, I'll challenge you. Post here a copy of the order of worship used at your church. Or post whatever you think is an ideal order of worship. Don't forget to tell us when people are expected to sit, kneel, bow or stand.
Then, we can proceed to pick it apart and tell you what is and what isn't strictly scriputral.
Rosebud, first of all, I want to thank you for giving me scriptures to look at!They were well stated about the freedoms that we have as Christians. The freedoms that were stated however, refered to the freedom from the old law. Nowhere in the OT did they have freedoms at all because they were under law. Christ fullfilled the law by dying on the cross as a sacrifice once for all so that all the rituals in the mosaic law would no longer need to be practiced. I suggest that you read all of Romans 7 and 8. Now, because of Christ, all that is needed is a believing, humble, repentant, submissive and obedient heart.
Ephesians 5:19 says "speak" not "play". We sing at the church that I attend, but only a capella. There were several times when I or some other member would invite someone to our services. Thier response would be "I have to have intruments in my worship." That is a cop out for someone who wants to be entertained. The audience of a worship service should not be the people in the building. The audience is God!
How do we know if something is pleasing to God when he didn't tell us to do it? Would you be pleased if you sent your child to the store to pick up bread, milk and eggs, and they came back with that and spent the rest of the money on candy and donuts? You didn't tell them not to buy candy and donuts.
Anyway, can't you see where pride gets in the way? All the people that I've known that played instruments for a church or sang in a choir have been pretty conceited about the whole thing. If you'll read a little further down in your Galatians reference you'll find the problem with conceit.
26Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.
Another case in point, suppose it was not possible for instruments to be used for a time; none available, all broken, whatever promotes this hypothetical situation. Would it be impossible for the congregation to be active in worship? What about those who just haveto have instruments?
I'm running out of time to post a response to your worship inquiry and I want to gather all my facts so that I can be thorough. Stay tuned! :D
Thanks for asking for verses. No problem. But keep in mind, I will demand that you validate your assertions with chapter and verse.
Firstly, show from scripture that there were no freedoms under the OT. I will point out that there were.
The Jews were freed from slavery to the false gods. I can't show you a verse that calls this freedom, but you know the the Jews had an alternative to serving Molech, Astarte, Baal, etc. The Bible hints, and anthropologists explain, that Molech worship required the sacrifice of infants. A religion that demands the deaths of infants is slavery indeed.
The Jews were free to approach God more closely than the other nations. I won't cite every passage, but you surely know that they had the Tabernacle. Some Jews, namely the priests, were allowed to enter the holy place, and the High Priests were permitted to enter the Holy of Holies, where the Shekinah glory dwelt. Even to be represented there once a year is a freedom denied to the other nations.
The Jews had the Ten Commandments. I know, you will say that was bondage, but I will cite Paul. Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
The liberty in Christ is greater, but the Decalog granted a freedom from doubt about what God wants. So, because they had the law, the Jews didn't have to wonder if adultery was every justified, or if society should sometimes condone murder. That's liberating! Just ask Solomon: Proverbs 7 tells us that obeying the law can prevent a young man from falling into the trap of a prostitute.
I have read Romans 7 and 8. More than once. I've also diagrammmed them as part of a course in Bible college.
Do yremember the comparison Paul makes to marriage? That's at the very beginning of Romans 7:
2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
Now, where in that do you read that the widow forfeits her dowry? She doesn't! When her husband dies, she retains whatever property she brought into the marriage. She is free to choose a new husband, with both her dowry and the things she learned in her first marriage. The freedom to use instrumental music in worship is retained. According to you, Christians have to forfeit instrumental music in worship. That would be opposite from what Paul says, that the widow is free, not in deeper bondage. No, all the freedoms God gave the Jews are kept for Christians, and more freedoms are added.
So what is the liberty we have in Christ? Try Romans 6, especially verse 7; "For he that is dead is freed from sin." Note that! We are freed from sin, not from the good things of the Old Testament. If instrumental music was good, and many passages say that it is, then it is not a sin, and it is not something we need to be freed from in the New Covenant.
Consider. In the OT, people ate food. Is that a ritual we are not to continue in the New Covenant? People also got married, had sex, and gave birth to children, according to the OT. Are those dead rituals that have no relevance to Christians? Not everything that is in the OT is abolished, only the bad things.
You quote 5:19; "Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;" I notice that this passage mentions pslalms, hymns, spiritual songs, singing and melody. You make too much of the word speaking, ignoring the context. If you were to speak enough psalms, you would run into one of the many passages where instrumental worship is recommended! Hymns are vocal music, and so are spiritual songs. And how can you sing if you are forbidden to sing?
I think you are gulty of "speaking lies in hypocrisy." You quoted that, I think, so you should know what I mean. I will also draw your attention to Acts 20:30, where we read of self-appointed prophets "speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them." Your doctrine (no instrumental music) is NOT of Christ, nor of his Apostles, but it is a false prophecy to divide the church.
YOu have no scriptural authority to say that singing and instrumental music are bad, or that they do not belong to Christian worship. I on the other hand have plenty of authority, in the books that Jesus came not to abolish but to fulfill.
What do you do with the singing around Jesus' throne in the Revelation (chapter5)?
"And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. "
In this passage we see a worship service in heaven, and guess what? Harps! Singing! A song! If it is good enough for Jesus Christ on his heavenly throne, shouldn't it be good enough for you too?
On to the arguments that don't pretend to be Biblical:
Now, I typically have instruments in my worship, but I don't HAVE to have them. I do just fine a capella, and I can worship in silence when that's more appropriate. I can even worship when others around me are off key.
This argument of yours -- that the claim of some people to NEED instrumental music proves something -- makes no sense. Don't judge Christ by the hypocrites in the church! Don't judge true worship by what some idiots say! Look instead at scripture, where singing and instrumental music are approved in both the Old and the New Testaments.
Now about pride. Sure, some people are ungoldy proud of their singing or their instrumental music. So what? That doesn't make it any better to be ungodly proud of excluding those God-ordained forms of worship. Shea, the pride you express is not a bit better than the pride of a rock star.
You might ask, why doesn't the New Testament say anything about vocal and instrumental music? And I reply, 1) that's a false assumption, see Rev. 5, and 2) the wide variety of musical worship permitted in the Old Testament pretty well covered the topic.
So far, you have been unable to cite a NT passage that explicitly *forbids* vocal or instrumental music in worship. I have been able to cite one passage in the NT that specifically *accepts* both, and we agree that the OT has a good bit to say about it.
Please read what I've written before you respond! I never said that singing in worship was not scripturally authorized! Anyway, most of your post reads like a catholic commentary. Your point gets lost in all your words.Quote:
Originally Posted by RoseBud
I believe that you use the word "freedom" too liberally. The Jews were God's choosen people and were bound to the old law in order to have salvation.
Romans 7:5-6
For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. 6But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.
Think about someone in a jail cell, would you consider the bars freedom to them from committing another crime?
Back to the singing, your reference to instruments in Revelations has nothing to do with our worship here on earth. Instruments were first used in church about 700 years after Christ. We are not governed by what God did not forbid, but by what He has authorized.
Matthew 7:21
Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
The only way for us to know what God's will is, is to read it in the Bible. If He told us to have cake and ice cream on the Lord's table, then we would. If he told us to have instruments in worship then we would. The only accompaniment to singing that we are commanded to have was that of the heart!
When you quoted Romans 6, you quoted it out of context. Paul had not yet begun to talk about the old law. He was referring to our sinful human nature.
Neither does your mention of dowry make any sense. If that's what Paul meant, then that's what he would have written. In fact, many of the new christians were rebuked for reverting back to the old traditions, such as circumcision, abstaining from certain foods, or not eating with gentiles (which by the way, Peter himself was rebuked for this!). Who are you to authorize what can be "carried over"!
Which brings me to why I entered this forum today. You asked me to post an order of worship as described in the Bible. The first century church had 5 main areas of worship:
1. The Lord's Supper.
Acts 20:7-On the first day of the week we came together to break bread. Paul spoke to the people and, because he intended to leave the next day, kept on talking until midnight.
2. Praying.
Acts 2:42-They devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and to the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer.
3. Singing. (as previously quoted)
Colossians 3:16-Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom, and as you sing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God.
Ephesians 5:19-Speak to one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs. Sing and make music in your heart to the Lord,
4. Preaching.
Acts 20:7-On the first day of the week we came together to break bread. Paul spoke to the people and, because he intended to leave the next day, kept on talking until midnight.
1 Timothy 4:11-Command and teach these things.
2 Timothy 4:2-Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage--with great patience and careful instruction.
5. Giving.
1 Corinthinans 16:2-On the first day of every week, each one of you should set aside a sum of money in keeping with his income, saving it up, so that when I come no collections will have to be made.
We are also commanded to attend.
Hebrews 10:25-Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another--and all the more as you see the Day approaching.
The order in which these things take place makes no difference as long as they are all there for Sunday- the first day of the week. At the particular congregation where I worship, we first have a sort of call to attention and then a welcome to all the visitors along with the announcments. Then worship begins with usually 2 songs and then an opening prayer. We then sing another song in which the word help prepare our minds for the Lord's supper. 6 men then will go up to the table that we have prepared, and one will say some words to also help get our minds ready to take the unleavened bread.
1 Corinthians 11:27-29
Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. 28A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup. 29For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself.
We have another prayer and then the bread is distributed among the christians. The men then go back up and have another prayer for the "fruit of the vine"- we use grape juice. After that is distributed, we then take up a collection. (no titheing)
2 Corinthians 9:7
Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.
Then a member from the congregation will then go up to read a passage of scripture that partains to the sermon for that day. After that one of the men will preach and then there is an invitation for baptism along with another song.
Acts 2: 37-41
When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?"
38Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off--for all whom the Lord our God will call."
40With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, "Save yourselves from this corrupt generation." 41Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.
Then we have a closing prayer.
I found that many people like to add to the worship things to make them 'feel better'. They set aside Sunday as the 'Holy Day' and then spend the rest of the week doing just about whatever they feel like instead of living the life of a christian. In order to cover up thier guilty conscience about the things they've done, they make the worship less convicting so that they can feel secure. Like I said before, worship is for God, otherwise, you're just entertaining a crowd.
I thought about this statement on my way home last night and I thought I might have added a little to make myself understood. I don't mean to lump people together just because their faith might be incorrect according to the Bible. On the contrary, I've known others who live very "righteous" lives according to what they know is true. My grandmother, for example, is a very good person and tries to live her life in the way that she thinks God would have her live. However, all she knows is what her priest, a mere man, and "her heart" has told her.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shea
Jeremiah 17:9
9"The heart is deceitful above all things,
And desperately wicked;
Who can know it?
She dosen't know God's will at all, and some of the religious pratices she keeps are a direct violation of Christ's teachings! She is entertained by her religious leaders to stir her emotions and make her 'feel good' much in the same way that one may 'feel good' at a concert by a musical group that they like. I'm sorry to say, but according to scripture, my grandmother will be one of those who cry 'Lord, Lord!'
Rosebud, you have set many challenges for me. I feel that I have completed them very well. Now, I have a challenge for you. When you talk about God's word on this site, don't word your responses in such a way that makes people feel that they need a Bible degree in order to understand it at all. I went to a Bible college too, and the Bible really is straight forward and easy to read. If God made it challenging, who then could be saved? All one needs is a hunger and thirst for truth. If they read your responses 'as is' they will give the Bible up as a confusing mass of words! Please speak plainly!
Shea... Jeez! Take a deep breath... ice your fingers. Then, maybe try and find a few verses that might actually support your point... instead of having absolutely nothing to do with your point.
OK, I know I'm joining this conversation a little late, but Shea, I have to say, I disagree with you entirely. I go to a relatively informal church. Our music is not contemporary christian rock by any means, but it is more upbeat, not just hymns. I take offense to you saying that your way of worship is better than mine in the eyes of God. Do you believe that God thinks better of you because you worship in a traditional style? That's absolute bologna. It's people like you that give Christians a reputation of being intolerant, high - and -mighty people. You can't say that you're way of worshipping is better than mine, or anybody else's. Whether you think so or not, by saying that my form of worship is wrong, you're judging me, and you have no right. If I'm worshipping God, what does it matter if we use electric guitars or just our voices? It doesn't. You can give me all your bible verses that, as fool on the hill said, really don't support your point all that well. I believe that if I am worshipping my God, and doing so in a heartfelt manner, than how can it be wrong.
Also, one other point, maybe contemporary services are designed to bring people who wouldn't enjoy a traditional service into church. For instance, I play bass guitar in my church's praise band. It is certainly aimed at a younger generation, and those people who want something less "boring." I know my goal by playing in this band is to bring some people to Christ who wouldn't otherwise become Christians. I find it unfortunate that they don't appreciate a traditional service as well, but that's not what is important. It's knowing that I helped save someone's life that is important. If you think worshipping in a very strict, traditional form is more important than trying to bring non-christians to Christ, then that's your choice, and I respect that. But don't tell me I'm wrong in what I'm doing. I love praising God, but I also feel it is important to help save other people.
Well, I guess you know my opinion. Thanks for taking the time to hear me rant a little bit.
I'm sorry that you seem to miss my point, but like I said before, if you check your Bible that might help.
I'm sorry also that you feel this way. I did no judging, but if you have a problem with the scriptures that I cited, there's nothing I can do about that.Quote:
Whether you think so or not, by saying that my form of worship is wrong, you're judging me, and you have no right.
If I worshiped in a "traditional style", I would more or less have a ritual service. I worship as close to the first centry church as possible as was described in the Bible. I cannot say that God thinks better of me because of the way that I worship. I do not presume to know the mind of God. All that I can say is what is given to us in God's word. If I agree to the authorization of anything else, then yes, I would presume to know the mind of God.Quote:
I take offense to you saying that your way of worship is better than mine in the eyes of God. Do you believe that God thinks better of you because you worship in a traditional style? That's absolute bologna.
Well, then I suppose Paul was high and mighty. Can you show to me where in the Bible Paul and the apostles taught about being tolerant of different beliefs?Quote:
It's people like you that give Christians a reputation of being intolerant, high - and -mighty people.
Though you don't think that my scripture references have any relevence, I'll cite it anyway because it does.Quote:
Also, one other point, maybe contemporary services are designed to bring people who wouldn't enjoy a traditional service into church. For instance, I play bass guitar in my church's praise band. It is certainly aimed at a younger generation, and those people who want something less "boring." I know my goal by playing in this band is to bring some people to Christ who wouldn't otherwise become Christians. I find it unfortunate that they don't appreciate a traditional service as well, but that's not what is important. It's knowing that I helped save someone's life that is important. If you think worshipping in a very strict, traditional form is more important than trying to bring non-christians to Christ, then that's your choice, and I respect that. But don't tell me I'm wrong in what I'm doing. I love praising God, but I also feel it is important to help save other people.
Hebrews 13:8-9
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. 9Do not be carried about with various and strange doctrines...
We cannot bring God down to man's level. The fact that you mentioned "boring" in reference to worship, it shows that you see worship as entertainment. Remember, God is the audience, not people who may or may not find your bass playing appealing. Exactly how do you feel that you've brought someone to Christ by entertaining them?
I'm sure you want to bring people to Christ, but you've got to look at how the apostles brought men to Christ; by teaching, not entertaining.
I know that was just your rant, but I couldn't let that go. Thanks for taking the time to hear my reply.
I may have been a little worked up last night. I really didn't take offense to what you said, I was just ranting. Anyway, I do not find worship boring. It is more than just a form of entertainment for me. What I meant was that for those who do find that type of worship boring, maybe they need something more. It's not necesarily that they want entertainment, but sometimes, for a person to be truly passionate about worship, they need more than hymns. If they are sincere in their worship, then what does it matter if it's not the way you think we should worship? I realize that you're not saying your form of worship is better than mine in the eyes of God, but the way you put it, you made it sound like your way was the right way. All your Bible verses may tell you that that is how we should worship, but they don't convey the same message to me. It is all a matter of interpretation, I suppose.
Also, I am not playing my bass guitar to entertain. If people wanted entertainment, they would go to a rock concert, not a church service, I don't care who they are. I guarentee you there is not many people in the world who would go to church to be entertained. It's a way of telling these people about Christ, and letting them praise and worship him in a way that they find most effective. If they aren't loving worhshipping God, then nothing is getting accomplished. I understand what you're saying, but, unfortunately, I'm not an apostle, and what worked 2000 years ago just isn't going to work today. Worship is a way of coming to the Lord, and it doesn't matter how it's done, as long as it is heartfelt and sincere. Show me a verse that say specifically, not in an indirect manner open to interpretation, that there is only one way we can worship. Unless you can do that, I'm going to have to say that you're wrong.
These were all the verses that I found on unity.
Matthew 23:8
"But you are not to be called 'Rabbi,' for you have only one Master and you are all brothers.
Acts 4:32
All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they shared everything they had.
Romans 14:19
Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification.
Romans 15:4-5
4For everything that was written in the past was written to teach us, so that through endurance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.
5May the God who gives endurance and encouragement give you a spirit of unity among yourselves as you follow Christ Jesus, 6so that with one heart and mouth you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1Corinthians 1:10
I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought.
2 Corinthians 13:11
Finally, brothers, good-by. Aim for perfection, listen to my appeal, be of one mind, live in peace. And the God of love and peace will be with you.
Ephesians 4:3-6
Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. 4There is one body and one Spirit--just as you were called to one hope when you were called-- 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
Philipians 1:27
Whatever happens, conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ. Then, whether I come and see you or only hear about you in my absence, I will know that you stand firm in one spirit, contending as one man for the faith of the gospel
Philipians 2:2
If you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any fellowship with the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, 2then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and purpose.
Philipians 3:16-17
Only let us live up to what we have already attained.
17Join with others in following my example, brothers, and take note of those who live according to the pattern we gave you.
1 Peter 3:8
Finally, all of you, live in harmony with one another; be sympathetic, love as brothers, be compassionate and humble.
Especially note 1 Corinthians 1:10. There should be no divisions if we all follow what the Bible teaches instead of adding what we "feel" is right.
How can we need anything more than Christ?!Quote:
maybe they need something more.
Hebrews 12:2
Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Also look at Matthew 10:35-38
For I have come to turn
" 'a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law--
36a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.'[5]
37"Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; 38and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.
If we are expected to even give up family if they oppose you for Christ's sake, then how much more do we need than Christ himself?
I understand that there is nothing more we need than Christ, the point I'm trying to make (but which obviously isn't getting thru) is that people don't realize that all they need is Christ. If there were a way to get people interested in Christ w/o having to cater to them, that'd be great, but it is ur duty as Christians to bring non Christians to Christ, and if that is an effective way of doing so, than how can it be wrong?
Well, really just a simple Bible study will help. Honestly, the studies that I have been doing on this forum have really helped me out a lot more than music could! My knowledge has grown and my understanding is easier. I am closer to God than before and I've been thanking him for allowing me to join this site! I find that I'm looking for answers to questions that I already knew the answer to. But because I'm talking to people about it I can't just paraphrase the answer in my mind, I have to look it up again and that drives it more to home. Plus, I have the reassurance that everyone can see our conversations so that I can plant the seed of Bible study and question asking in others.
Matthew 28:18-20
Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."
We can't force people to be christians. I'm not saying that that's what you're trying to do, but If we've shown them truth and they refuse to accept it then there's nothing more you can do. You've done what God commanded. To keep on doing it and never lose heart dispite the failures that is also what God commanded.Quote:
If there were a way to get people interested in Christ w/o having to cater to them, that'd be great, but it is ur duty as Christians to bring non Christians to Christ
2 Timothy 4:7-8
7I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day--and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing.
You never know when you've simply planted a seed that just takes a little while to germinate. ;)