Religious Miracles

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by togre

Regarding present day miracles and especially "near death experiences" you'll probably hear alot of different things from different individuals. From my personal study, the Bible neither promises that there will be any miracles in these days, nor does it clear say there will not be. So what does a Christians do? Christians know that there are spiritual forces, both good (God) and evil (the devil). We know there is a physical world that operates under certain principles. We know humans can be mistaken or confused. So we factor these together. We examine whether the possible miracle is in accordance with what we know is true (the Bible). If it is, maybe its a miracle or maybe not. It is not in agreement with what is found in the Bible(a non-Christians has a near death experience that convinces them they'll be in heaven), we know its not a miracle from God. Maybe its a false work of the devil to delude people. Maybe its self delusion. Maybe its the brain trying make sense of random neurons firing.

---

This is the kind of answer that I expect from a Christian: an NDE is real (in this case, not the act of some devil), only if it justifies the believer's theology.

An atheist often gives a similar kind of answer and denies that the evidence exists, because the NDE violates the atheist's theology. Usually you hear non-believers trying to explain away the NDE by saying that there must be something wrong with the dead person's brain, or as you suggest they are caused by "random neurons firing." The only problem with these explanations is that there aren't any neurons firing at all. The person is dead.

So we can be thankful that Christians and atheists have at least some common ground. They both deny NDEs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by YesNo

An atheist often gives a similar kind of answer and denies that the evidence exists, because the NDE violates the atheist's theology.

---

Atheists don't even have doctrine, let alone theology.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by YesNo

Usually you hear non-believers trying to explain away the NDE by saying that there must be something wrong with the dead person's brain, or as you suggest they are caused by "random neurons firing." The only problem with these explanations is that there aren't any neurons firing at all. The person is dead.

---

No, this is more nonsense. Patients who report NDEs are almost always those whose hearts have stopped beating rather than in whom brain signals had ceased.

While it's great TV to talk about people being "brain dead", it is extremely rare in reality that a critical patient would be hooked up to a brain scanner. In fact, I find it hard to think of any instances where an ICU or critical care patient would be having his/her brain monitored. Brain scans are diagnostic, not there to signify life or death.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by YesNo

So we can be thankful that Christians and atheists have at least some common ground. They both deny NDEs.

---

I don't know of any atheists who deny NDEs. They all feel there's a physical and rational explanation, but nobody seriously doubts they happen.

I can't speak for christians.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by The Atheist

No, I'm aware of standard medical equipment; I was highlighting your error, which you now confirm that you mean simple monitors.


This is still wrong. Monitors do not explain what is wrong and alone, absolutely do not predict a prognosis.

This is why I seriously doubt your claim that you are a nurse.

A patient brought in with hypothermia will have terrible readings off the monitors, but a little hard work can often save a life.

---

I hell don't care if u doubt me being a nurse... And its not my problem if u don't know what a monitors show also .
A part from what you said .. A monitor do show when a heart stops .. or a case of brain death when there is no electrical signal... Its not just hypothermia !!!

Quote:

---

I repeat, claims of people living who were expected to die are very, very rare.

---

Even if its rare .. it's there . Tough i don't think its that rare but quite few.

Following is a story of a lady who was having ALS Amyotrophic Lateral Sclerosis, and if you go through it you would see people die from it not less than 5 years after diagnosis of the disease. This lady below survived it .. and though i believe in science and i know the Stem cells has helped many patients in such conditions..
Quoted from here: http://blisstree.com/feel/are-there-...s-in-medicine/

Quote:

---

We hear and read of them: miracle cures ranging from tumors that have disappeared to the sickest of babies pulling through without any after effects of their illness or complications. Many of these miracles are due to the power of prayer, say the devout. Can this really happen?

A woman with amyotrophic lateral sclerosis (ALS) says that it can and has happened to her. Fifty-year-old Italian Antonia Raco was diagnosed with ALS, also known as Lou Gehrig’s disease and has been wheelchair bound for the past four years. Earlier this month, she visited the a shrine in Lourdes, France, a popular site for Roman Catholic pilgrims. Many who are ill or disabled visit the site to pray for miracles.

Records over the past many decades offer several examples of miracles performed at Lourdes.

According to this news article, Woman with ALS reports healing at Lourdes,

She visited the Roman Catholic Shrine of St. Bernadette in France Aug. 5 and said she was in a healing bath when she felt a pain in her legs and a voice encouraging her.
”Ever since I came back I have been walking, doing everything normally,” Antonia Raco, 50, told ANSA news service.

What do you think? Is this a miracle, or could it be something else

---

so Why not ! if that lady thinks its a miracle .. then who knows it might have been so ?
The difinition of miracle itself is different from what everyone might have in mind .

Quote:

---

Well, since there's no physical evidence to support any of these alleged miracles, I won't bother arguing about it, beyond noting that the christian god's miracles seem to have been exhausted when he was called upon to protect the Hebrews from the iron chariots.

---

The miracles that God has blessed over his prophets are there in Divine books.. . However i know that all that is still stated in the Holy Quran , for its the one i read .
Now the miracles before were done by the prophets within a word from God. It was usually taken from something of the people ; thing they were good at and so a proof to make them believe.
As for example the people that Jesus Peace be Upon him was sent to they were good in medicine ; hence his miracles were use to heal the blind and sick and deaf .
And those of Moses were good in Magic and there were many wizards then .. so his miracles included magical aspects the stick that turned to snake ; which when they saw they realized that wasn't a magic work for they used magic to blind people's eyes and show them stuff that wasn't .. But Moses magic was much bigger it was not a magic in fact it was a miracle from God.

And Abraham Peace be upon him , after destroying all the idols , his people wasnted to burn him alive .. after setting the fires . By Only God's wish and by God's order it was cold on his body and no harmful it was .

Quote:

---

021.068 They said, "Burn him and protect your gods, If ye do (anything at all)!"

021.069 We said, "O Fire! be thou cool, and (a means of) safety for Abraham!"
The Holy Quran

---

And the Holy Prophet Muhammad Peace be upon him miracles were many as the others. . Just like how others prophets like Solomon and Jacob Peace be upon them .

Each prophet had many miracles and i am not going to discuss it and if we try to count it we're gonna take many posts.

I am fully aware that you are an Atheist and this in fact doesn't mean anything to you .
Even though many people are going to give mockery replies , yet i don't care . For i didn't post only for them .


Miracles were .. PAST TENSE... and now there are other forms of such great miracles maybe not as they were before .. or maybe they are not there but i think that there are such incidents that are not explained and i don't like going through it in deep. Could be in the help of medicine or it might not be .. Could be anything but not miracle ?
But there is something somehow.. and i know that it can't measured for such thing never has a deivce to measure it .

I guess the definition of miracle is an act pf supreme power that makes a change ... I guess ..

Regards,
Hoope

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hoope

I hell don't care if u doubt me being a nurse... And its not my problem if u don't know what a monitors show also .
A part from what you said .. A monitor do show when a heart stops .. or a case of brain death when there is no electrical signal... Its not just hypothermia !!!

---

And again, you're misusing medicine and medical equipment - a flat line on a heart monitor shows nothing about the brain. The heart and brain are not connected. A stopped heart does not signify brain death, just as a brain dead patient may be kept "alive" by machines which keep the heart beating and lungs aerated.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hoope

Following is a story of a lady who was having ALS Amyotrophic Lateral Sclerosis, ...

---

Without supporting evidence, I wouldn't care to comment on what one blogster says.

I will merely note the impossibility of a wheelchair-bound person walking. Unless the miracle cure also causes instantaneous re-growth of muscle tissue, it would take moths to regain one's feet.

I love that kind of claim, since a genuine claim would be so obvious - the mew muscle mass would be both visible and measurable, but oddly, there are never any measurements given.

Again, a nurse would know that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hoope

And those of Moses were good in Magic and there were many wizards then .. so his miracles included magical aspects the stick that turned to snake ; which when they saw they realized that wasn't a magic work for they used magic to blind people's eyes and show them stuff that wasn't .. But Moses magic was much bigger it was not a magic in fact it was a miracle from God.

---

So, the god used to be able to do party tricks, but gave up?

I still find it amusing how this god chappie used to be happy to do so many physical miracles to persuade unbelievers all those thousands of years ago, but now that we can use a bit of science, he stays keeps his rabbit in the hat.

The silly thing is, I agree wholeheartedly with Uncle Tommy Aquinas - any actual supernatural happening must inevitably lead to the Abrahamic god. All it would take for me to become a believer is one single miracle, but the god is happy to sit on hands and expect me to believe some thousands of years old text?

As I say to my kids, "Don't tell me, show me!"

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hoope

I guess the definition of miracle is an act pf supreme power that makes a change ... I guess ..

---

I'm happy with that definition of miracle. Still awaiting reliable evidence.

R e m i n d e r

Please show respect towards the beliefs of others.

We are here to discuss the issues, not each other.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by The Atheist

And again, you're misusing medicine and medical equipment - a flat line on a heart monitor shows nothing about the brain. The heart and brain are not connected. A stopped heart does not signify brain death, just as a brain dead patient may be kept "alive" by machines which keep the heart beating and lungs aerated.

---

I hell didn't say that a cardiac monitor is connected to that of the brain.. check my comment above... There are monitors that shows heart activities and others for brain..
I believe in medicine . I know what achievements medicine and science done.. So no need to remind me to that.

Quote:

---

So, the god used to be able to do party tricks, but gave up?

I still find it amusing how this god chappie used to be happy to do so many physical miracles to persuade unbelievers all those thousands of years ago, but now that we can use a bit of science, he stays keeps his rabbit in the hat.

---

NOO COMMENT !!!

Quote:

---

As I say to my kids, "Don't tell me, show me!"

---

What do you want me to show you .... ?
That happens million years back . And the point is that this -we call it faith .. we believe in things that we didn't see . And i don't want you believe in it .

Quote:

---

I'm happy with that definition of miracle. Still awaiting reliable evidence.

---

What evidence you want.. since u can't proof the opposite that doesn't mean that it's wrong.
And we may not see it but we see its effect.

And here i end my comments for not gonna reach to anything .

I will simply say that miracles cannot be explained or denied, but they do happen.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jassy Melson

I will simply say that miracles cannot be explained or denied, but they do happen.

---

Well, if that's an allowable contribution to the discussion....


I will simply say that miracles don't happen.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MarkBastable

Well, if that's an allowable contribution to the discussion....


I will simply say that miracles don't happen.

---

"Miracles" neither happen nor fail to happen. Things happen, and sometimes they are described as "miracles". Miracles are not what happens -- they are an interpretation of what happens.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ecurb

"Miracles" neither happen nor fail to happen. Things happen, and sometimes they are described as "miracles". Miracles are not what happens -- they are an interpretation of what happens.

---

I should have used the font Irony Sans Smilie there, shouldn't I?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by The Atheist

Atheists don't even have doctrine, let alone theology.

---

I suspect we all have these things.

The atheist's theology would try to disprove the existence of something others claim to be "God".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by YesNo

I suspect we all have these things.

The atheist's theology would try to disprove the existence of something others claim to be "God".

---

By definition of the words, there can't be an atheistic theology, no matter what you suspect.

the·ol·o·gy   /θiˈɒlədʒi/
[thee-ol-uh-jee]

–noun, plural -gies.
1. the field of study and analysis that treats of god and of God's attributes and relations to the universe; study of divine things or religious truth; divinity.
2. a particular form, system, branch, or course of this study.

Origin:
1325–75; ME theologie < OF < LL theologia < Gk theología.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MarkBastable

By definition of the words, there can't be an atheistic theology, no matter what you suspect.

the·ol·o·gy   /θiˈɒlədʒi/
[thee-ol-uh-jee]

–noun, plural -gies.
1. the field of study and analysis that treats of god and of God's attributes and relations to the universe; study of divine things or religious truth; divinity.
2. a particular form, system, branch, or course of this study.

Origin:
1325–75; ME theologie < OF < LL theologia < Gk theología.

---

okay then....the atheist's atheology....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BienvenuJDC

okay then....the atheist's atheology....

---

Wonderful. They've started making up words. That would be 'atheism' then.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by YesNo

I suspect that Christians could very easily have problems with near-death experiences.

Why?

Because people who are not Christians, not even religious, have positive near-death experiences. If Jesus is the only way, how is that possible? It also looks like no one needs to wait for a final judgment to occur. So how does that sync up with the book of Revelation?

I also think Buddhists would have problems with NDEs considering their "non-Atman" approach to the "soul", but I am not as familiar with that religion.
.

---

Not a Christian ( know nothing about Buddhisim so not going to comment) but I don' see the issue, a NDE is God (or Jesus if you like) giving people a second chance, to believe in him, or to get more good points or even giving them more rope to hang themselves with, depends on your version of religion I guess.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by The Atheist

I repeat, claims of people living who were expected to die are very, very rare.
.

---

Not THAT rare Atheist, I am closley releated to 2 and know about half a dozen others...

I don't really hold with NDE as miracles, no more than life itself, science , math the universe being a miracle.

Then again I have serious issues with Miracles especially the so and so can cure people type miracles . I tend to have great diffculty in refraining from snorting or rolling my eyes and really offending people.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Scheherazade

Do religious miracles become less spectacular and more "believable" as we get closer to the present time?

From the days of parting the sea and building arks to carry many animals and survive a terrible storm, we get to catching large number of fish and healing people.

If you agree that religious miracles are getting smaller in scale in time, why do you think this might be? Is it because we do not need great miracles anymore? Or difficulty of proving? Or we are able to explain things better without resorting to supernatural?

What are your thoughts on religious miracles?

---

But to return to OP I think that we need a defintion of what is a miracle. I think ( not sure but I think) that for the most part as far as my religion is concerend big miricales are done, except for a few predicted ones which frankly should they happen I really do NOT want to be around for.
Personally I think things happend everyday, little things that are still amazong, call it concidence , probablity, whatever else you want to call it , if you look around you you can come to your own conclusions as to wheatehr God and thus 'miracles' exist or not with out big spectacular things. Either way we shouldn't take life and the world for granted.