transhumanism/bionics - would you do it?

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Originally Posted by Dodo25

Human beings are conscious, thus if they act like humans, they might well be conscious.

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Non-sociopaths have conscience, thus, if someone acts like he has conscience, he can't be a sociopath?

What I mean is that the Turing test doesn't distinguish between genuine intelligence/consciousness and people just being fooled.

And no, I don't have a better solution. It's just that I like to nitpick.

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Originally Posted by Neely
No way. Nobody is sticking any internet connection thing in my brain, are you kidding? It sounds like an horrendous thing to me.

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What's so wrong with that? My computer is always connected to the internet, but it's still completely independent. It lives behind several impenetrable firewalls - a bit like one of those gated communities, but guarded by many fences, within which run crocodiles, hamadryads and starving rottweilers.

Bring it on!

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Now I know that you are just trying to wind people up.

The internet is a wonderful thing, but it is still a damn frustrating hunk of junk a lot of the time. I went to that wholly evil place some people call work today. They have just got that Windows 7 installed on a top computer system complete with go-faster stripes and all. Well, it took me about an hour to get onto email and open a Word document! When I had managed to do that I kept on getting little annoying boxes asking me if I wanted to install various junk. If I said "no" it got mad at me, if I said "yes" it said that I didn't have rights to say "yes" - which got me shouting at it that there was little point in asking me in the first place!

When I come home my laptop constantly asks me to "diagnose connection problems" and regularly shuts down on me for no reason, whether I am half-way through a post or not. It is also about as fast as a lame greyhound running in trap 6 carrying a leg-iron. It also seems that every other day I have to spend about 10 minutes updating the latest adobe wot not, even though I haven't a clue what that is??

My computer upstairs is much better, but then again, it often loses signal on the wireless connection and I find that I have to shut it down in order to start it back up again. Also, every time I turn it on it forces me to spend the first five minutes checking and downloading various updates for bits of crap that I never even asked for in the first place, most of which I haven't got a clue what it does anyway.

Now all that is one thing, but now you want me to drill all of that nonsense into my own brain cells so that it can screw up my own system just as quickly. I'd say no thanks to if you don't mind...

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Originally Posted by Dodo25

Why third? If we only count living species, I think you mean second.

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It's a way of checking if you've read Douglas Adams.

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Originally Posted by Dodo25

I doubt marine mammals are that smart. I don't know much about them, but I just don't think the social interactions are as strong as they are among chimps, and social interaction is the primary selection pressure towards self-conscious intelligence. Furthermore, with the danger of sounding anthropocentric, chimps are our closest living relatives. I think the pygmy chimp (or bonobo) is the second smartest living animal.

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I'd vote for dolphins myself - I think their societies are at least as interactive as chimps, and taking into account what they appear to play by way of group games, I suspect they're a lot smarter than we credit them with.

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Originally Posted by Dodo25

In this context, I used 'smart' as equal to 'self-conscious'. I wonder if the two are directly linked or if there can be some aberrations. For instance, I've read octopuses are pretty smart, but I really don't think they're even nearly as conscious as chimps.

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Heck, octopi are psychic!

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Originally Posted by Dodo25

Imagine a bonobo that learned sign language. I claim his consciousness has changed, it has become self-conscious through culture. I know you disagree with me on that, but I think it's one of the most fascinating thougths ever.

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Yes, just that "if" in the way. I wouldn't disagree that the act of learning sign language may work as a means of becoming conscious either.

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Originally Posted by Dodo25

Yeah I know what you mean. When I first read about it, it did sound too good to be true, and likely, some of the talk about it is exagerated. I have read about the flawed methology too. But some accounts remain very convincing, and there is hardly an alternative explanation that could deny that bonobos/chimps can learn and apply a significant vocabulary of sign language.

I don't remember where I read it, but what impressed me the most was the following story:

The researchers would celebrate the chimp's birthday's with all the chimps, and they'd also celebrate christmas with a christmas tree with candy.

One chimp, after some years, remembered that Christmas comes two days after another chimp's birthday. And on Christmas day, he went to the researcher and made the sign for 'tree' plus the sign for 'candy'.

These kind of things, which seem to happen in more than just one instance, shows true understanding, not just imitation.

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I'd need to see some serious research, because that's the exact problem peer-review uncovered with the claims - the chimp would say tree and candy alright, but in amongst: dog, hat, banana, love, eat, toilet, paper, water, hamster and ball.

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Originally Posted by Neely

Now I know that you are just trying to wind people up.

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Hell no. A real-time converter of thought to the internet would be outstanding.

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Originally Posted by Neely

The internet is a wonderful thing, but it is still a damn frustrating hunk of junk a lot of the time.

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I never see that.

Then again, I spend more time in my own sites than anyone else's....

;)

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Originally Posted by Neely

I went to that wholly evil place some people call work today. They have just got that Windows 7 installed on a top computer system complete with go-faster stripes and all. Well, it took me about an hour to get onto email and open a Word document! When I had managed to do that I kept on getting little annoying boxes asking me if I wanted to install various junk. If I said "no" it got mad at me, if I said "yes" it said that I didn't have rights to say "yes" - which got me shouting at it that there was little point in asking me in the first place!

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Now that, you can cure in one easy lesson.

Go up to your IT guy/ette.

Stand right in front of him/her and explain that you will personally come and rip out his heart if your PC isn't working properly in 20 minutes' time.

(That isn't an internet problem, and downgrading to Windows 7 is plain silly)

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Originally Posted by Neely

When I come home my laptop constantly asks me to "diagnose connection problems" and regularly shuts down on me for no reason, whether I am half-way through a post or not. It is also about as fast as a lame greyhound running in trap 6 carrying a leg-iron. It also seems that every other day I have to spend about 10 minutes updating the latest adobe wot not, even though I haven't a clue what that is??

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:smilielol5:

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Originally Posted by Neely

Now all that is one thing, but now you want me to drill all of that nonsense into my own brain cells so that it can screw up my own system just as quickly. I'd say no thanks to if you don't mind...

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No worries - I'll definitely put you down in the "no thanks" queue for implanted Microsoft Brainz V2.7.

I have just been reading an interesting article in Le Monde about this subject. Headed 'Eternity Can't Wait', it tells of how two groups of biologists and mathematicians in California are involved in studying the use of man-made cells to replace those that are damaged through the aging process. One of the processes they are working on is the cultivation of enzymes which will swallow the detritus that encumbers and destroys aging cells and thereby block the genetic mutations which weaken the capacity of cells to produce the energy they need. The nano Robots will be used, as has already been mentioned in this thread, to rejuvenate the brain. These are the same size as a human cell, will be applied intravenously and lodge themselves in the brain to repair the damage caused by aging and also enhance intellectual capacity. Through occasional connection to the computers, that by this time will be controling the planet, humans will still be able to 'humanize' the computers and keep their own brains alert indefinitely, while regular use of the anti-aging process will similarly keep the body from deteriorating. The avowed aim of these people is the destruction of death.

Dare to interrupt evolution during its very gradual process? In short, I would not rely electronic devices to process a thought or movement, the compulsive error messages would never let you get by. I suppose I am all for nature, this world is overpopulated enough as it is, we need to be able to let future generations expand. Besides, would it be even possible to breed with a transhuman? Given that they are not complete biological decedents of humans, I suppose the machinery would have to adapt to our DNA.

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Originally Posted by Serena03

. Besides, would it be even possible to breed with a transhuman? Given that they are not complete biological decedents of humans, I suppose the machinery would have to adapt to our DNA.

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That's an interesting viewpoint, but whilst the Japanese are heading in the direction of producing completely new synthetic beings imbued with human characteristics, the Americans are thinking of recycling existing human beings by regenerating their aging bodies. What is clear is that both systems are aiming for eternal life. I suppose that the normal reproductive system will atrophy and die as it is becomes surplus to requirements.

If they could somehow refurbish my old biological body I may consider it. But hooking me up to some artificial system seems like an invitation to misery.
It is like an artificial hand, or artificial teeth, just not as good as the real thing.

I think I will just let nature take its course. I could not afford either alternative.

An artificial human may look human, may act human, but would it be alive? Would it be self-aware? I just don't think it would feel itself.

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Originally Posted by altheskeptic

If they could somehow refurbish my old biological body I may consider it. But hooking me up to some artificial system seems like an invitation to misery.
It is like an artificial hand, or artificial teeth, just not as good as the real thing.

I think I will just let nature take its course. I could not afford either alternative.

An artificial human may look human, may act human, but would it be alive? Would it be self-aware? I just don't think it would feel itself.

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Yes this is exactly the kind of thing that comes to mind, but an artificial hand or teeth are better than none. If for example you are hooked up to a dialysis machine to revive your kidneys, you may not like it but it is better than the alternative.

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Originally Posted by Serena03

Dare to interrupt evolution during its very gradual process? In short, I would not rely electronic devices to process a thought or movement, the compulsive error messages would never let you get by. I suppose I am all for nature, this world is overpopulated enough as it is, we need to be able to let future generations expand. Besides, would it be even possible to breed with a transhuman? Given that they are not complete biological decedents of humans, I suppose the machinery would have to adapt to our DNA.

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Meh, evolution is not directional and it has shown itself to result in failure more often than not. 99% of species that have lived on Earth ended up in evolutionary dead ends, entire genera and even phyla have been expunged by flukes of a process that is very bad at reacting to rapid change. Another nasty side effect of evolution is that selection doesn't act on genes that tend to effect people after their reproductive years. So, we have these bodies that fall to **** as soon as we're no good for making babies. It seems to me that I'd far prefer interference into the natural process of evolution than allow myself to gradually fall to crap to free up more resources for the reproductively capable.

I am very uncomfortable with the ideas of immortality, eternity and the likes of them.
No matter how good something is I can't be with it forever, even if it is a life. After I've lived this one through I wouldn't want a trace of it left if I'm going to get another one. If this is the only one, I'd still want it to end somewhere and end for good.

That said, I'm for any technology that can reduce pain and suffering in any way.