July '10 Reading: Walden by Thoreau

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Originally Posted by ladycolleen

Dark Muse-

Thank you for your reply. And, I do agree with what you said. But, Thoreau also seems to have a bias against manual labor in general. For instance:

"Most men...are so occupied with...coarse labors of life that its finer fruits cannot be plucked by them. Their fingers, from excessive toil, are too clumsy and tremble too much for that." (Economy)

Man is capable of more than manual labor, but manual labor in itself can be a noble occupation.

It just bothered me to read these sentiments right at the beginning of this book.

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My impression is that he is against working in general. I do not think he would see any occupation in which a person is chained down to others, or chained down to their own greedy desires as being "noble" he is brutally critical of the wealthy and merchants as well.

He believes in completely free and independent living in which a person lives purely for themselves. Because he also says that he would not advise anyone else to live the way he lives either, because he thinks each person needs to individually choose their own way, and so he would not want to be the means of another choosing to live in a way that is not born purely from their own desire and choice.

He starts out with the example of manual labor, but I do not it as simply an attack upon labor, because by the end of the chapter her pretty much tears down every institution and occupation of the civilized world. He sees it all as being interconnected and all of it as a way of keeping people as slaves and preventing them from truly thinking for themselves of behind independent individuals.

But rather as being trapped in this cycle in which they feel as if they have to work in order to by the stuff they are led to believe that they need.

For example in the case of the cabinet maker, while I don't know if Thoreau would "approve" of the trade, as well he seems to be generally against trade in general and those concerned with making a profit, but I tend to think he would have more respect for the craftsman who made furniture because it is what gave him pleasure in life, then he would for the more industrialized labourer who saw only the profit and worked himself to death in work that was meaningless to him.

Am going to start it tonight!:smile5: am very much looking forward to it having read the remarks so far.

Thanks again, Dark Muse for your thoughts. I haven't gotten very far yet, so I will reserve further comments until I read more.

But his thoughts so far do remind me of something that I used to say to my mom when I was a teen in the 60's. I used to say that everyone works so hard, at a job they don't like, in order to buy enough food, to keep them alive, so that they can go to work again at a job they don't like.

I know it sounds depressing, but it is how some people live- at least those who do not like the work they do.

I am curious does anyone know Thoreau's religious beliefs?

He seems to be critical of the organization of the church, but does not appear to be an artist seems strongly influenced by Eastern philosophy.

This with this experiment in living simply off the land and away from civilization makes me think of transcendentalism.

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Originally Posted by Dark Muse

I am curious does anyone know Thoreau's religious beliefs?

He seems to be critical of the organization of the church, but does not appear to be an artist seems strongly influenced by Eastern philosophy.

This with this experiment in living simply off the land and away from civilization makes me think of transcendentalism.

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I don't think he has any particular religious beliefs. He's much more a student, more entertained by the questions than the answers, than he is a proponent of any particular belief. Even transcendentalism, something for which he is associated, is only a passable label for he beliefs at Walden. I think that you can see at Walden pond that Thoreau seeks to discover what living a spiritual life, in the most practical sense, means.

I've read Walden numerous times and enjoy it no less every time I do. I am completely beguiled by Thoreau's philosophy of self reliance, solitude, contemplation and being close to nature, and by his fearless dedication to it. But more than that; I love how he gets his thoughts across. The chapter Sounds where he is listening to the owls and letting his imagination run wild has to be one of my favourite sections of prose ever written. I find the whole book inspiring because it speeks to the rover in me, it feeds my wanderlust and it scrathes my itchy feet.

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Originally Posted by RaoulDuke

I've read Walden numerous times and enjoy it no less every time I do. I am completely beguiled by Thoreau's philosophy of self reliance, solitude, contemplation and being close to nature, and by his fearless dedication to it. But more than that; I love how he gets his thoughts across. The chapter Sounds where he is listening to the owls and letting his imagination run wild has to be one of my favourite sections of prose ever written. I find the whole book inspiring because it speeks to the rover in me, it feeds my wanderlust and it scrathes my itchy feet.

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Thus far Sounds and Serenity are my two favoirte chapters in the book. I agree that the prose in Sounds is truly quite remarkable and was wonderful to read.

I'll let you in on a little personal fanboy-dom of mine. I own four copies of Walden. All of which I have read many times. In the chapter "Sounds", mentioned above, I have underlined the line "I rejoice that there are owls" in each copy. And next to each underline, I have annotated as follows:

1. "Me too! I remember the Great Northerns in the Wyoming nights"
   
2. "Pray. We are blessed".
   
3. "Thankful for everyday miracles. I should read this line everyday"
   
   And, last, (with apologies to Scher)
   
   
4. "Yee haw! ****in' a right".

I loved "Solitude", but I've got to confess that I was a little bit disappointed in "Sounds". Reading by a river in the Yukon, listening to water rushing over rocks, the occasional splash of fish, or the chatter of a squirrel, I was expecting something to parallel and enhance the experience. Yes, there were beautiful parts of the chapter, but I think I need some help appreciating the long exposition on the railroad. At one point he seems to be mourning all the labor, without a higher cause, put into the railroad, and the next he is praising the industry of the workers, etc.

I was, unfortunately, a bit late in starting my reading of this book, so pardon me for being a bit late in responding to some posts.

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Originally Posted by ladycolleen

Dark Muse-

Thank you for your reply. And, I do agree with what you said. But, Thoreau also seems to have a bias against manual labor in general. For instance:

"Most men...are so occupied with...coarse labors of life that its finer fruits cannot be plucked by them. Their fingers, from excessive toil, are too clumsy and tremble too much for that." (Economy)

Man is capable of more than manual labor, but manual labor in itself can be a noble occupation.

It just bothered me to read these sentiments right at the beginning of this book.

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I think you're being too literal here. Thoreau had to engage in manual labor to support himself at Walden Pond, both for wages and manual labor to get firewood, catch food, etc etc. Also remember that the Lowell system for manufacturing textiles originated perhaps thirty years prior to the publish of Walden. People were underpaid and advancement was non-existent. Job security was only guaranteed as long as consumer interest was high. While not a direct response to this economic structure (which was reflected in other industries, just not as prominently), Thoreau seems to comment more that Man should not engage in jobs that restrict him from gaining an understanding, either of himself or Life in general. After all, he does comment that "the fall from the farmer to the operative is as great and memorable as that from the man to the farmer." While, in the strictest, most literal sense of the text, you can call it a distaste of manual labor, Thoreau is just warning Man not to labor himself to blindness.

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Originally Posted by Dark Muse

There are times where he does strike me as being a bit contradictory between the things he says and does, but I do believe there is a point within the story in which he openly admits to the contradictions.

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You have to remember that, while eventually edited (posthumously, my copy said) by family members and publishers, more than anything else, Walden is a compilation of thoughts from his experiences at Walden Pond. While some "contradictions" are there, I tend to see them as Thoreau presenting the vices of his world, not just to justify his actions but to, although he claims not directly, implicitly guide Man towards finding himself.

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Originally Posted by L.M. The Third

I loved "Solitude", but I've got to confess that I was a little bit disappointed in "Sounds". Reading by a river in the Yukon, listening to water rushing over rocks, the occasional splash of fish, or the chatter of a squirrel, I was expecting something to parallel and enhance the experience. Yes, there were beautiful parts of the chapter, but I think I need some help appreciating the long exposition on the railroad. At one point he seems to be mourning all the labor, without a higher cause, put into the railroad, and the next he is praising the industry of the workers, etc.

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You bring up a really good point L.M. -- he does both because, I think, he feels both. Walden, the book, is a document of an experiment. And for all the hype that he lives far out in the woods, he really doesn't. Nor does he claim to. He notes many times that the railroad is just on the opposite edge of the pond. And that he "wears a trail to town" in his two year living in his "house". -- He only refers to his residence there as "cabin" once, all other times he refers to it as a "house" which I feel is significant.

Anyway, I got distracted there. Thoreau does appreciate the train and the great human endeavor that it stands for. Sometimes. Other times, he wonders if all that beautiful human effort and energy couldn't be put to better purposes than transporting goods and services -- that maybe if we put such effort into living a more beautiful life, even if only for a couple of years, we the human condition would grow.

The train in Walden is a lot like the Internet of today. Sometimes we love it. Sometimes we hate it. But the truth of the matter is that we are conflicted about it. It's a guilty pleasure, a necessary evil, and a beautiful transport of fellowship and communication all at once. And I think that Thoreau is showing you not his final thoughts about technology and the wild, but the natural paths of his thinking about such things.

"Solitude" is a beautiful chapter too, by the way. I think tomorrow I'll quote some of my favorite lines.

My personal favorite chapter is "The Bean Field". I adore the wild/agricultural/mock-heroic flavor of the whole chapter. And the wonderful experimentation of it.

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Originally Posted by The Comedian

You bring up a really good point L.M. -- he does both because, I think, he feels both. Walden, the book, is a document of an experiment. And for all the hype that he lives far out in the woods, he really doesn't. Nor does he claim to. He notes many times that the railroad is just on the opposite edge of the pond. And that he "wears a trail to town" in his two year living in his "house". -- He only refers to his residence there as "cabin" once, all other times he refers to it as a "house" which I feel is significant.

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That is a good point. He really is not out roughing it in the wilderness, though he does live self-sufficiently, he also is still quite close to idealization. And while in the chapter "Solitude" he speaks of nature being his best company, and of how far away his nearest neighbors are, and glorifies the idea of being isolate from society and paints this rather romantic picture of life alone with nature.

I just started reading the chapter "Visitors" which seems to suggest that he did in fact quite frequently have people over for company, though who all these people are that would just pop up at his cabin I don't know, but it does seem as if in fact he did quite frequently have a good deal of human contact in spite of his praises of the pond and the owls being such great companions to him.

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Originally Posted by Dark Muse

That is a good point. He really is not out roughing it in the wilderness, though he does live self-sufficiently, he also is still quite close to idealization. And while in the chapter "Solitude" he speaks of nature being his best company, and of how far away his nearest neighbors are, and glorifies the idea of being isolate from society and paints this rather romantic picture of life alone with nature.

I just started reading the chapter "Visitors" which seems to suggest that he did in fact quite frequently have people over for company, though who all these people are that would just pop up at his cabin I don't know, but it does seem as if in fact he did quite frequently have a good deal of human contact in spite of his praises of the pond and the owls being such great companions to him.

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Exactly. He does live in "solitude" when compared to many of his townsmen and women, but he doesn't live alone. In fact, he enjoys company. But what he has at Walden, he learns, is freedom. I believe in "Solitude" he says something a long the lines of "there was a time when I thought that it was impossible to live away from human society and to still live a human life". (I'm going off of memory with that "quotation" so it may be off a bit). But we see this idea throughout the entire book: thoreau seeks to find the best balance, or idealization, as you say, of human society and natural harmony.

I just finished reading the chapter "Visitors" and there was one thing of which I was not entirely certain about.

First he talks all about the woodcutter who would visit with him and than later on he mentioned a half-wit that he encountered, and I could not quite till if he genuinely admired what he viewed as their natural innocence, and their simple way of seeing things, how they were uncorrupted by society and civilization, or if he was patronizing them for their lack of intellectual thought.

I just finished "The Bean Field" and agree it is a great chapter, I really enjoyed it, but is it just me or does Thoreau seem to be a bit obsessed with woodchucks? I think a person could start a drinking game based on how many times he mentioned the word woodchuck.