School Dress Codes? Uniforms?

My school had a uniform, this was no bad thing. I went to a school in a pretty bad area and uniform was very useful. It prevented fights over wearing of one football teams top as opposed to another one (anyone with knowledge of glasgow will understand this), cut down on gang colours etc. also there is the effect on people from other schools coming in looking for fights gets reduced because they are more easily spotted (in a high school of 2500 people not every student can be known by every teacher).

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Originally Posted by Hurricane

I attended a middle/high school with a dress code (and attend a college with uniforms..), and honestly it was pretty nice. My dress code dictated no jeans, sweatpants, large logos, overly short skirts, etc. Everybody looked presentable and relatively professional. Though obviously there still were cliques and different groups, but clothes weren't as much of an issue. My school may have been unusual, but people were divided more into drinkers/non-drinkers than stuff based off of outward appearance. Uniforms would have probably made it even better. Dress codes/uniforms for all wouldn't mean that students would just sit around holding hands, but it makes one less point of contention.



What's wrong with a "visual demonstration of obedience"? Even showing up at school is in some ways a demonstration of obedience. The students have to obey and respect the teacher, it's the only way school works. When they get real jobs, a lot of students are going to have to abide by a dress code (shirt &tie/suit/whatever) and I think that good comes from getting people used to that.

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Good post Hurricane. I agree with both sections. Yes, if students came in dressed professionally, I wouldn't be so pro school uniforms. Obedience is not the right word. The right word is proper socialization. I can tell you this, if you come into an interview to me with without proper attire, visible tattoos, piercings, or expressing yourself with street gutter language, I can guarentee you will not get hired by me. One is free to be any counter-cultural radical you want to be, but I'm free not to hire anyone that gives me vibes of potential problems. I really don't care how it inhibits anyone's individuality. A professional dresses professionally.

I have to agree Virgil. The posts about individuality etc miss the point. Individuality is fine in the right place and time. It is important for to have a proper perspective.

The funny thing I noticed about kids when I was one and nowadays is that they don't really express that much individuality. I think they're more "dress tribal" - they dress like their mates etc.

I used to hang about with punks at one time, and they would cluster together in the same pubs, thus subverting their own individuality for the tribe identity. They dressed to stand out, but went to places where they wouldn't.

At least with a uniform you also take the tribe gang thing away too.

Thanks Paul. It amazes me how every individual punk dreses exactly the same. :lol: :lol:

Hey I was a teenager too. I know kids want to be hip. But dressing in a shirt and tie to work or school doesn't limit one's individuality. One's individuality is not based on what one wears or smokes, but on one's personality and thoughts and creativity.

You see these guys here:

http://www.audacity.org/images/featu...light-crew.jpg

http://history.nasa.gov/SP-4223/p111.jpg

These are the engineers at mission control that managed and worked the Apollo 11 expedition to the moon. These are some of the most creative people ever to take up a slide rule and lay out a design. I don't think that shirt and tie and horned rimmed glasses had any limitations on their individuality. I would have given my right arm to have worked on that.

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Originally Posted by TheFifthElement

My question is, if it doesn't make you a better student what is it really there for?

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Do you have evidence that it doesn't make for better students? I'm sure studies have been done. Speaking from my own experience, there were three high schools in my town, only mine required a uniform, and it was very well known that universities would accept a 75 from a student from my school when it required an 80 of students from the others. I'm not saying that this is directly because we had a uniform, but perhaps it has to do with the environment created in the school? Everyone knew that the other two high schools were jokes compared to mine.

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Originally Posted by *Classic*Charm*

Do you have evidence that it doesn't make for better students? I'm sure studies have been done. Speaking from my own experience, there were three high schools in my town, only mine required a uniform, and it was very well known that universities would accept a 75 from a student from my school when it required an 80 of students from the others. I'm not saying that this is directly because we had a uniform, but perhaps it has to do with the environment created in the school? Everyone knew that the other two high schools were jokes compared to mine.

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I totally agree with you.

Hi Virgil, I believe you are right in a sense, and you can fit into an elite group or a work without difficulty.
I am far different from the people you expect who reach the standard you described above, because I never like to dress myself professionally. The two pictures you chose and your description about them had scared me off already.
I do not think I had any difficulty wearing a uniform in my teens, but I always quit school for a day or two when I got into one of those queer moods that detered me from attending school.

I was just a bit taken aback to know that all schools did NOT have a uniform there. I mean, here in India, I think there are very few schools without uniforms. (By schools, I mean schools good enough to impose a particular uniform on students).

Well, uniform, I think are outstanding means to display oneness, if you know what I mean. It also gives me pride when someone looks at my uniform and says, 'Hey, he belongs to Emerald Heights! And it's a wonderful school!'

Also, I really liked the point Niamh made. Indeed, students wouldn't be bullied just because they lack 'fashion sense'. I hadnt ever thought about it that way.

Edit:- I just read FifthElement's post questioning its usefulness. Here's my take on it. Uniform allows me to instantly connect to my school.

Also, indirectly, it infuses in you a sense of discipline. In our school, its not just about wearing a uniform...its about wearing it in the right manner.

To repeat what I said in your blog, the late, great George Carlin was dead set against school uniforms. He said something to the effect that "Isn't it enough that the schools want all the kids to THINK alike -- they want them all to LOOK alike too?"

I do agree that teenagers are obsessed with clothes. When they're not making fun of somebody for wearing something outside the realm of what's fashionable, they're using clothing as a springboard to violence, such as "gang colors." So uniforms could be a safeguard against the latter. Despite that:

I think the uniform issue -- as well as locker searches, metal detectors, sweeps for contraband (i.e., aspirin, Midol, cough drops) is a symptom of one of the things wrong with our educational system.

First of all, there is a deep-seated distrust of students, manifested by the fact that many of our public schools are run as if they were medium-security prisons. No wonder kids don't want to be there, why the drop-out rate is so high! It seems to me whenever any kind of school reform is undertaken, the needs and wishes of students -- the reason d'etre for the existence of public schools to begin with --are considered last. The hierarchy goes like this:
1. State Education Dept.
2. Local School Board
3. Administrators
4. Teachers' unions
5. Taxpayers
6. Parents
and dead last -- 7. students

When you look at the entities in the hierarchy of 1 through 4 above, the elements which are considered important to that group widely differ. As a result, very few public school systems have the priorities right. They place too much emphasis on non-educational issue such as thinking up and reinforcing rules, spending/not spending money, so-called "standard" and assessments, i.e., tests. You know as well as I do that damn few standardized tests measure anything useful beyond certain prescribed criteria that have little or nothing to do with real knowledge.

And to come back to the uniform issue, it would be great if the schools would place more importance on what's inside a kid's head rather than what kind of shirt he or she is wearing.

Finally, remember all the garbage about "self-esteem" from a few years back? Yeah, make a 14-year-old girl wear a uniform with the skirt hem as long as a burqa. That's really gonna boost her "self-esteem!"

I find school uniforms the most disgusting things in the world.

Firstly they are mostly bad quality clothing that is over-priced and doesn't last a season.

Secondly, the argument that it prevents class/financial differences showing is total crap. If they do not wear a T-shirt of Lacoste, then they wear golden earrings. If they are not permitted to wear any jewellery (surely they cannot actually forbid earrings?), they will cut their hair every week and so show the difference in financial capacity that way. Not to speak about pens, pen bags, school bags and other thins the school cannot regulate. Class differences are there and we should face tem, there is nothing else to be done. Outside the school, puils are no longer equal, despite wearing the same stuff. At any rate, will teachers actually discriminate if they see that one is wearing Lacoste and other isn't? I would hope not. .

Thirdly, any (English) uniform I have seen is the most unflattering clothing ever! I wouldn't be seen dead in it. For teenagers who are already insecure about their figure, putting on such preposterous trousers that make your bum look huge, is not going to have a good effect.

Forthy, a school can regulate what its pupils wear. I went to a school where the uniform had been abolished and we were allowed to wear anything, povided that is was not without sleeves (in an attempt to have no too sexy clothing, although we were in a girls only school :rolleyes:), not too extravagant, not too short (10cm above the knee was about the line, although some got away with more :D), it did not look untidy (dreadlocks were objected to, but I don't think anyone ever had really to get rid of them, although there were very few in my school of about 1000 pupils). Sometimes you could get around the rules by wearing a knitted jumper with big wholesin it and a top without sleeves under it. Then I was wearing sleeves. It did not say in the rules that there were no holes allowed :D.

Fifthly, if students eventually are allowed out without wearing that preposterous ensemble that does not suit them, they go out in tracksuits and the like. Why? Because, surely, it is not a priority to have nice looking clothes as they do not have to go to school in them.

It also teaches pupils very little about the appropriate way of clothing in a professional environment, because they have never had to think about it. Unless they go and work somewhere with a uniform, they do not know the difference between a tiny mini-skirt with tank-top and a proper suit and which occasion suits what.

Needless to say, I am anti-uniform. :alien:

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Originally Posted by AuntShecky

I think the uniform issue -- as well as locker searches, metal detectors, sweeps for contraband (i.e., aspirin, Midol, cough drops) is a symptom of one of the things wrong with our educational system.

First of all, there is a deep-seated distrust of students, manifested by the fact that many of our public schools are run as if they were medium-security prisons.

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I think that uniforms and all the searches that you list here are different sorts of issues: the searches, detectors, et al. . .communicate, as you note, suspicion of covert activities, that the students are hiding something. Uniforms aren't that way: you're either wearing it or you're not. And if you're not (or have manipulated it in some way), then go home, take a 0 for the day. And come back when you're ready.

Lesson #1 learned: if you want to break the rules for something as small and petty as showing a little more leg, then you deserve to suffer the consequences when they're small and, relatively, harmless. Lesson #2 learned: sometimes you have to follow the rules, even if you don't like them. Honestly, the whining about I hear about having to wear uniforms reminds me of something my 5-year old said this morning: "But daddy, I really, really, really want cake for breakfast! Cake is so yummy!" That may be so, and when she's and adult she can eat cake for breakfast if she wants, but today, it's wheat toast and a banana.

I think, Auntie, that your concerns about school searches and similar paranoia, established after the Columbine shootings (which to me, did more than any political policy to change the structure and tenor of US education) are a truly severe problem. And the US needs to lighten up (a lot) on the prison element of school.

As a side note, I'm not all crazy about uniforms myself. I just posted the question because a personal observation got me thinking about the connection between dress standards and education.

Here it is: In the small town in which I live, there are two schools, the larger public school, and the smaller Catholic school. The Catholic school doesn't require uniforms, but the dress code there is MUCH more stringent and enforced than the public school. And, the education and overall moral and social preparedness of the students at the Catholic school is leaps and bounds beyond that of the public school system. (And this Catholic school is light on the Catholic, really light on the Catholic, non-believers can opt-out of Mass, do independent projects during religious class. . .).

Anyway, my kid is in the public school where I see the most slovenly dressed students using foul, inarticulate language and rude, rough behavior. Now, I'm no fool: I know there are a lot of socio-economic issues at work here too that far outplay role of strict dress code. But, I wondered, surely the dress code is doing something, right?

Maybe it's doing nothing, but it doesn't seem that way. At the very least, it seems to establish a more consistent, studious air about the place. . .a respectability that affect a lot of things indirectly. I've never claimed that dress codes or uniforms are problem solvers; in truth the large issues that you rightly bring up here cannot be solved by one major change, but by many, many small adjustments to mood, structure, curriculum, and (ultimately) the social values of the citizenry.

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Originally Posted by TheFifthElement

1. School uniforms are often very expensive. Certainly more expensive than normal everyday clothes which are subject to considerably more open market forces. A basic school blazer in UK costs £20. I can’t recall ever having the need to spend that much money on one item of clothing for either of my kids. In fact I could probably get them 4 decent quality jumpers for the same amount of money.

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Haha. Blazer is like $150 here. :nonod:

I like uniforms because they are actually a source of income for the school, a small amount of the profit actually goes to them. It also gives them a reason to fundraise on gold-coin donation casual days. Say you get a dollar from over a thousand kids at a school, it does add up and there is little work on the schools behalf. They can use that to buy so many more things.

That, and my PE shorts are the most comfortable things I own.

And still, you can be descriminated against for your uniform. I mean, I've had numerous complaints from other students about my dress being too long, that being the correct length.

Unless it is properly policed by the school, then it defeats the purpose. Our school is pretty strict, but there are things that they let pass. They are yet to send a thousand girls home for having short dresses.

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Originally Posted by The Comedian

Anyway, my kid is in the public school where I see the most slovenly dressed students using foul, inarticulate language and rude, rough behavior. Now, I'm no fool: I know there are a lot of socio-economic issues at work here too that far outplay role of strict dress code. But, I wondered, surely the dress code is doing something, right?

Maybe it's doing nothing, but it doesn't seem that way. At the very least, it seems to establish a more consistent, studious air about the place. . .a respectability that affect a lot of things indirectly. I've never claimed that dress codes or uniforms are problem solvers; in truth the large issues that you rightly bring up here cannot be solved by one major change, but by many, many small adjustments to mood, structure, curriculum, and (ultimately) the social values of the citizenry.

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I think it also has to do with discipline. When parents are paying to send you somewhere they tend to not be happy when you get expelled. We pushed the boundries but we knew how far we could push until the hammer was dropped and (and by pushing boundries I mean not having out blouses tucked in and our socks slouched down).

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Originally Posted by papayahed

I think it also has to do with discipline. When parents are paying to send you somewhere they tend to not be happy when you get expelled. We pushed the boundries but we knew how far we could push until the hammer was dropped and (and by pushing boundries I mean not having out blouses tucked in and our socks slouched down).

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Oh yes, I agree. Still, as Catholic schools go, this one is cheap -- really cheap; most in town but save the poorest could afford the tuition outright, and the school has a strong enough endowment to "sponsor" kids from families that can't pay the tuition. However, you bring up my point that the enforcement of the dress code is a part of how discipline and respect is crated, like a section in a quilt.

EDIT: your new avatar is about as awesome as I've seen here. It make me want to burst out with "there's one; set for stun", every time I see it.

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Originally Posted by AuntShecky

...The hierarchy goes like this:
1. State Education Dept.
2. Local School Board
3. Administrators
4. Teachers' unions
5. Taxpayers
6. Parents
and dead last -- 7. students

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That's how it goes? Not for us when it comes to uniforms.
1. Education Dept. of Australia
2. " " of the State.
3. Catholic Education Department
4. Board of Catholic Education at our school
5. Chaplain
6. Principal
7. Deputy Pricipals
8. Student body, represented by the school captians
9. Year Level Coordinators
10. The janitors
11. Parents.
Yea, parents don't score out too well around here.