What do you think Hemingway's Best Fiction is?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mortalterror

And I would probably be the last person to pick up a Danielle Steel, Nora Roberts, or Harlequin Romance book. I'm just not the intended audience for those novels. Now, if you'll excuse me, I've got to get back to brushing my hair in the mirror, listening to Enya, and practice putting on my makeup so it doesn't smudge.

---

Classic...

I have to say why would the posters that have issues with a writer feel the need to do this to a thread that the OP just asks for an opinion on an author's best work. I don't vent spleen on threads whose subjects that ask for similar opinions of writers I loath (and there are A LOT of these). What does that accomplish or how is that germane to the OP? IMHO it shows a lot of disrespect to the forum member who started the topic.


-----


As to the OP, I would say its between The Sun Also Rises or some of the short story gems.

I read A Farewell to Arms back in 1990 as part of my American Lit coursework and had an excellent and passionate teacher who hammered a passion for this writer in my head. I loved Hemingway, I loved the Farewell and short stories. Came back to read Old Man and the Sea a couple of years ago and found it OK, read The Sun also Rises a few months ago and was thoroughly irritated by that sparse style (Hemingway's strength). I admire his philosophy of 'grace under pressure' which defines my own personal philosophy in life. Everybody breaks but it is how you behave at the breaking point that really matters. He has some superb things to say on writing and life which can really change your outlook on things. Unfotunately now I find his fiction tedious as I approach my 40th year. 19 years on I can not recall any writer that I studied in that US Lit course with whom I really failed to fall in love. A good teacher can inject an amazing amount of enthusiasm.

"As you get older it is harder to have heroes, but it is sort of necessary." Ernest Hemingway

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by promtbr

Classic...

I have to say why would the posters that have issues with a writer feel the need to do this to a thread that the OP just asks for an opinion on an author's best work. I don't vent spleen on threads whose subjects that ask for similar opinions of writers I loath (and there are A LOT of these). What does that accomplish or how is that germane to the OP? IMHO it shows a lot of disrespect to the forum member who started the topic.

---

I was agreeing with a previous poster's opinion, not "venting spleen" as you put it. Excuse me, but I thought this was a discussion forum. If we all agreed about how wonderful every author mentioned is, there would be no such board. I don't have "issues" with Hemingway, I don't like him. And by saying that I'm not trying to disrespect the original poster. I feel however that those comments aimed at me were patronising in the extreme.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wessexgirl

men= Hemingway= manly and deep, (obviously too deep for little old me, flutters eyelashes and simpers)

women= being girly and shallow, not enough of the old brain-power to understand the profundity of writers like Papa. We have to go for light and fluffy, or our brains might explode.

---

I am afraid you are being to harsh toward Hemingway. I don't think he ever meant that women have to be shallow. Female characters in his books are as deep and complicated as the male ones.

That's true, Hemingway, especially in his short stories, talks not too much about women but when he talks, he makes them as real as his male characters are.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Virgil

I recommend his Collected Short Stories Mono as next. He was actually more sensitive than he lets on and people think. I think you hit on Hemingway's female characters. They are essentially cartoons. They are extremely two dimensional. They are not real. At least not for me.

---

I will definitely consider it, Virgil, during my next trip to the bookstore. I've read the majority of Winner Take Nothing, but, otherwise, have only read a few here and there. Thanks! :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mayneverhave

As for his work being overly macho. I'm on the fence. His male characters are almost always stoic and enduring, while his female characters are underdrawn and submissive. Nearly all of his male characters drink a fairly large amount of alcohol in any one sitting and often avoid talking about their feelings.

---

'Stoic' sounds like the most appropriate term, I believe. The men have little expression, show even less emotion, and appear as mostly impervious and indifferent to their surroundings, with a few exceptions (such as the main male character of A Farewell to Arms); internally, however, they all have hearts as soft as fresh cotton.
I still stand very true to my opinion that many female characters in Hemingway novels appear weak and submissive only on the surface of them, throughout the novel later seeming deeply thoughtful, strong decision-makers, and occasionally very dominating and short-tempered, such as the main female character from For Whom the Bell Tolls. Calling all Hemingway female characters weak, submissive, and unintelligent demeans the depth of all Hemingway characters, whether male or female; all his women have an undeniable beauty, whether in personality or physiological, or both, strength, and unspoken yielding manner to them, but for the reason of conformation to their surroundings, rather than fighting everything.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by beroq

I am afraid you are being to harsh toward Hemingway. I don't think he ever meant that women have to be shallow. Female characters in his books are as deep and complicated as the male ones.

That's true, Hemingway, especially in his short stories, talks not too much about women but when he talks, he makes them as real as his male characters are.

---

That may be true of Brett - the major female figure of The Sun Also Rises. But even with her, her primary motivating factor is using her sexuality to establish power in social situations (hardly a complimentary attribute).

In A Farewell to Arms, the character of Katherine is hardly a character at all except through the perspective of Frederick Henry.

The traditional Hemingway criticism is related to the macho criticism - his female characters have no depth.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mono

I still stand very true to my opinion that many female characters in Hemingway novels appear weak and submissive only on the surface of them, throughout the novel later seeming deeply thoughtful, strong decision-makers, and occasionally very dominating and short-tempered, such as the main female character from For Whom the Bell Tolls. Calling all Hemingway female characters weak, submissive, and unintelligent demeans the depth of all Hemingway characters, whether male or female; all his women have an undeniable beauty, whether in personality or physiological, or both, strength, and unspoken yielding manner to them, but for the reason of conformation to their surroundings, rather than fighting everything.

---

This is a persuasive argument, but one I don't completely buy. I must admit, however, that I am no Hemingway expert, and have not read enough of his material to come to a conclusion on his entire body of work.

'The Old Man and The Sea' is one of the most powerful, and beautifully crafted novels I have ever had the pleasure of reading and studying. The man so effortlessly and poetically wrote an iceberg of meaning!

The discussion keeps returning to women in Hem's fiction, and as much as I love his writing, he did often have problems with creating believable female characters and love stories.

Some critic suggested - it may have been Lynn in his Hemingway biography - that Hemingway had some real issues with women, something that started with his mother dressing him up in girl's clothes. To what extent this is true or interesting can be debated, but there is a rather striking development as regards women in his writing. Step by step, their roles in the novels changed.

In Sun Also Rises, Brett is probably the strongest character of all, and in Farewell to Arms, Henry, the 'code hero', learns his way of living according to the code from Katherine. In for Whom the Bell Tolls, by contrast, Maria is a young girl of virginlike qualities (though she has been raped), who is extremely submissive and visits Robert Jordan in his sleeping bag right after they have met. While she is restored to life from their love, she is little but a love interest for Jordan, or even just sex. Across the River is a love story between an old man and a young woman where the woman listens to the man's stories and Old Man and the Sea does not feature a woman at all (except for a tourist at the end or something).

Step by step, the women in his books changed from being strong leading ladies (some might argue) to passive observers of men and their manly business, in the end disappearing completely.

Someone mentioned Pilar, the strong woman and leader of the guerrilla band in FWBT. Some critics have read Maria and her for a way to Hemingway to split his fears and desires of women into two different characters, rather than having them in one as in earlier books.

It has been awhile since I read Farewell, but I wrote a paper on FWBT last term and I love that novel despite its ridiculous love story. It is one of those books that just has an amazing atmosphere, some suspense and even a bit of humour.

Of course the simplest way to approach Hemingway is through his short stories. If you don't get excited by stories such as "Indian Camp" or "Old Man at the Bridge", you need not bother.

Why does every book have to include not just women but strong female role model type characters? I find that as ridiculous as suggesting that every movie needs to have a kid and a small animal in it. That's a nonissue for me. That's a big SO WHAT? There aren't any Russians or unicorns either. I imagine the people voicing such objections as saying a lot of other ludicrous nonsense like ”What do you mean there aren't any pirates in this novel?” “If there aren't any piebald horses why should I bother?” and “Frankly, I find anything that doesn't have a spaceship or a dragon on the cover pedestrian.” A strong female character is not an essential building block for the construction of a great work of fiction. Why is everyone pretending like it is?

I agree with you Mortal. I think it's the influence of the radical feminists on criticism.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tallgren

The discussion keeps returning to women in Hem's fiction, and as much as I love his writing, he did often have problems with creating believable female characters and love stories.

Some critic suggested - it may have been Lynn in his Hemingway biography - that Hemingway had some real issues with women, something that started with his mother dressing him up in girl's clothes. To what extent this is true or interesting can be debated, but there is a rather striking development as regards women in his writing. Step by step, their roles in the novels changed.

In Sun Also Rises, Brett is probably the strongest character of all, and in Farewell to Arms, Henry, the 'code hero', learns his way of living according to the code from Katherine. In for Whom the Bell Tolls, by contrast, Maria is a young girl of virginlike qualities (though she has been raped), who is extremely submissive and visits Robert Jordan in his sleeping bag right after they have met. While she is restored to life from their love, she is little but a love interest for Jordan, or even just sex. Across the River is a love story between an old man and a young woman where the woman listens to the man's stories and Old Man and the Sea does not feature a woman at all (except for a tourist at the end or something).

Step by step, the women in his books changed from being strong leading ladies (some might argue) to passive observers of men and their manly business, in the end disappearing completely.

Someone mentioned Pilar, the strong woman and leader of the guerrilla band in FWBT. Some critics have read Maria and her for a way to Hemingway to split his fears and desires of women into two different characters, rather than having them in one as in earlier books.

It has been awhile since I read Farewell, but I wrote a paper on FWBT last term and I love that novel despite its ridiculous love story. It is one of those books that just has an amazing atmosphere, some suspense and even a bit of humour.

Of course the simplest way to approach Hemingway is through his short stories. If you don't get excited by stories such as "Indian Camp" or "Old Man at the Bridge", you need not bother.

---

Great points Tallgren. I've never said that Hem's problems with women were that they were all weak. That is flatly untrue by those that claim it. Anyone reading For Whom The Bell Tolls knows that Pillar may be the strongest woman of 20th century lit. The problem with Hem's women, and you say this too, is that they are two dimensional.

Hemingway was so immersed in life and the greatest gift that he had was his acute sensiteveness to life's minutest details from which he was able to make very comprehensive and impressive deductions.

What is your say on Islands in the Stream? No one mentioned it yet.

Islands in the Sream, in my opinion, is a great panaroma of humankind where it was splitted into two by the desire of love and loneliness -- both placed above the desire for happiness.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mortalterror

Why does every book have to include not just women but strong female role model type characters? I find that as ridiculous as suggesting that every movie needs to have a kid and a small animal in it. That's a nonissue for me. That's a big SO WHAT?

---

Well, we are not talking about books without women but about books where the females are sometimes poor reflections compared to the strong characterizations of the male characters. It's a classic Hemingway discussion and a valid one. As I said, I love his writing but that doesn't mean he isn't flawed. For a writer so obviously in search for the portrayal of real, genuine experience, some of his writing falls flat. The Jordan/Maria love story in FWBT isn't exactly his strongest hour.

Someone mentioned Islands in the Stream, and I just have to say that the first part of that novel in three parts is absolutely mandatory for Hemingway fans. Great, lyrical and atmospheric writing, and a touching story including a fishing incident similar to Old Man and the Sea. Definitely strong stuff. The rest of the book is less impressive but not bad. On the whole, it's a stronger work than both To Have and Have Not and Across the River.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mortalterror

Why does every book have to include not just women but strong female role model type characters? I find that as ridiculous as suggesting that every movie needs to have a kid and a small animal in it. That's a nonissue for me. That's a big SO WHAT? A strong female character is not an essential building block for the construction of a great work of fiction. Why is everyone pretending like it is?

---

Hey, I'm a girl, and I'm not overly keen on the 'gutsy' female characters people feel forced to write in, but the woman in A Farewell to Arms read like a notch on some man's bedpost. The female character need not be strong, but if they are going to be in a story as a character, their character, good or bad, needs to have more attention than Hemingway seems to give them.

Hey this looks pretty cool, his complete short stories:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/offer-lis...condition=used

I might have to get this as I only have one short story collection of his. Have been reading Men Without Women again (probably due to this thread actually) but I have left the bloody thing at work, I'll have to read something else at bath time tonight.

Aren't there like tons of Hemmingway look a like contests and Hemmingway type retreats. If you love that sort of thing, I guess it would be totally cool to go(not look like him though, shudders.)