devils and that

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Originally Posted by lupe

I surely don’t understand many things in this world and I’m eager to learn more. That’s why I like research, education, science, ARGUMENTS. On the other side, you believe that you do understand, that you have “put your heart in the right place”, that you adopted “the right attitude” and therefore god was revealed to you. And his existence is as certain as Lincoln’s assassination. Now, this is childish, my friend...

Which bring us exactly to what Brenard Russel said. We cannot understand – you can. Now, it’s of course awkward that you dismissed the mathematicians for being able to understand god (I never thought that only theologians are!). But I’m sure that Russel can finally rest in peace now that you forgave him.

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1. Where did I indicate that I personally have "the right attitude" or that "my heart is in the right place"? I simply have accepted that there is a God and that He is in control, not I. I know what I know (which isn't much) about God because I have voluntarily entered into relationship with Him. I'm not perfect, I still sin, but I have chosen to surrender control of my life to He who knows better than I. Those who enter into relationship with God (by very nature of how relationships work) know more about Him than those who aren't in relationship with Him. That's hard to understand? Isn't that how it works here in the REAL WORLD (to borrow your phrasing)?

2. Tell me, why is that so-called "open minded" and "free thinking" and "enlightened" people such as yourself have such a difficult time engaging in a conversation with a believer without being condescending? Is that a charateristic of being so much more versed in reality - that you're patronizing to others? If so, then I suppose I'm glad to count myself amoung the childish and brainwashed individuals you seem to think us to be.

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Originally Posted by Redzeppelin

No, it's not. That's why I qualified my statement by admitting that I'm no expert. I said nothing about the nature of dark energy. I was talking about darkness itself. The word in and of itself refers to the lack of light - not the presence of an actual thing. I gave an observation based upon experience. Darkness happens because light goes away. Darkness isn't a force that drives the light away from the earth. I won't pursue this because I'm out of my element, but I think your point is kind of stretched in terms of credibility. "Dark" describes the character of the matter and energy - "darkness" is the characteristic of something without light.

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"weltanschauung, i dont know why youre wrong, i dont have any arguments to prove my statements, but i know youre wrong."
youre saying dark describes the character of the matter and energy, but youre saying that that type of matter and energy arent dark. im telling you, darkness is a phenomenon just like light, for dark matter and dark energy emanate darkness, youre just looking at the word in a poetic way. go read stephen hawkins or something.

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Originally Posted by redzeppeling

God and Christianity aren't about "facts" - you've apparently not read the Bible closely, and if you have, you've not understood it. The Bible is about the character of God - a being who wishes to be in intimate relationship with us.

God establishes what "good" is - but you want "facts" - can you provide me "facts" as to what good is? I'd certainly like to hear your "facts" about what good is - because from my understanding, greater minds than ours have been pondering that question for quite some time and they are not in agreement. You speak as if you know "Good" or could recognize it, so let's hear your factual definition of good.

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oooh ok. god establishes what "good" is, and that is what? what is it? why are you going around in circles instead of just defining the term. define it for me, please. youre asking me now to give you facts about whatever, youre trying to turn this towards me because you cant answer it, which is what ive been trying to get you to do. the pilar of my argumentation is that good and evil are relative terms, plastic and malleable, that they dont have a definition or a precise meaning, therefore they are lose terms that arent defineable, but they have a fundamental value attached to them due to subjective judgement, which is not by any means an absolute truth, since people have limited comprehension.

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Originally Posted by redzeppelin

Bad/evil comes from choosing that which is not God. God is the source of all good in the universe; that which is contradictory to his character is bad. God created Satan, but He gave Satan free will and Satan chose to try and exalt himself by making himself - a created being - equal to God (the uncreated being). No contradictions that I can see.

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is this how you want to fundament your counter-argumentation? "that which is not god" isnt a precise term. if you want to use those terms, you have to define them. "god is the source of all good in the universe" isnt a precise statement, because you also havent defined what do you mean by "good".
and if god created satan and satan "chose to try and exalt himself by making himself equal to god", that is still saying god is also satan, because if god is the world, and by that i mean all things experienced through the phenomena provided by our active presence in tangible reality, then god is the source of satan, and satan is also god. how can something that isnt god exist in god, which is the world, so, speaking as if you were 5 years old, how can satan not be god if he's inside god?

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Originally Posted by redzeppelin

But you certainly speak as if YOUR opinion is authoritative. Why is that so? Why is my opinion worth nothing while yours - "some girl" - is supposed to carry any weight whatsoever?

I don't define right and wrong - I pass on what the Bible and my experience as a Christian has taught me it is.

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its very authoritative to say "i dont know what is truth"? i beg you pardon, sir.
my opinion is worth the same as yours, which is nothing, so you have no authority whatsoever to say what is right or wrong. i am asking you valid questions and giving you the core of my uncertainty, but you, instead of defining your terms, keep revolving around the same unexplained justification and discrediting the validity of my arguments, which are simply questioning your definitions instead of attempting to redefine them.

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Originally Posted by redzeppelin

Umm..to say I don't know "anything" is rather presumptuous, don't you think? I know enough to be having a discussion with you. And, only God really knows what I know. Should I assume you're speaking "factually" when you say I know "nothing"? To quote you "don't give me fiction, give me facts!"

Is your definition of evil any better? Evil is an absence of good or a distortion of it. What's so difficult about that to understand, so objectionable that you refuse to entertain it as a possibility?

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you dont know anything at all, youre just a man. sorry to break your bubble there.
i dont have a definition for evil, i dont know what it is, ive been trying to get that out of you since you seem to have it all precisely measured.
you say "evil is the absence of good or a distortion of it", DUUUUH, but what the hell is that supposed to mean? if you say 'light is that which is not darkness", yeah sure, youve said what light is, havent you? um, NO. if you ask me the definition of light i'll tell you 'it's fotons in movement, and the brightness of it is due to the energy released while an electron jumps from one atomic layer to a less energetic one", there, i gave you a precise definition, now you go and do that with "god", "good' and "bad". can you do that for me? quit going round and round, youre not confusing me, dude.

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Originally Posted by redzeppelin

Not sure what the point is here.

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duhhh. i know you dont get the point, and that is why we're having this silly argument, which isnt taking us anywhere, but the replies are just getting longer and longer although no significant progress has been made.

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Originally Posted by redzeppelin

I'm not giving you a "sentimental" approach. My belief system establishes God as the standard by which good is established. Nothing sentimental about that.

But saying that would be a lie. I do have plenty of ideas about God because the Bible - the revelation of his character - tells me plenty about who he is.

What I don't understand is the shrill nature of your reply. I'm just expressing an opinion and you seem really bugged that I have one that you don't agree with or don't understand.

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well maybe youre just looking at this as some silly rethoric game, in which you state your "opinion", and we both duel about who knows more.
well, im trying to find out what reality is, i could care less about anyone's opinions, i want truth. so maybe you should save your english to argue with a fellow opinionated person, so that you can fill more 150 pages of circular arguments that dont say anything, just "opinions".

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Originally Posted by redzeppelin

What's "easy" is your dismissal of what others believe because you can't access it. Your failure to understand doesn't establish reality. You may not comprehend the physics of a black hole, but that doesn't mean that those physics aren't real. God is not some "obseravable" phenomenon in the universe that we can just go find if we wish. By very definition as a Being who can create the universe with his voice, God exists beyond our ability to find, examine, and measure him. Your stubborn insistence that we or he prove his existence is beyond absurd, and even a little childish in my opinion. There are plenty of things that you believe that you have no factual "evidence" to support. Life is like that. Very little of what we believe to be true can be factually verified or personally observed. Since you didn't see Lincoln assassinated, then how do you know it happened? What - scholars/historians wrote it down? It's a conspiracy, that's what it is - Lincoln never existed...I mean, come on - once we do this "facts - only facts" game, everything can be brought into doubt.

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he isnt? so the world is something "apart" from god, and he's a gigantic transparent person who exists inside this infinite unkown thing/place and goes around looking for pure virgins to impregnate or lepers to cure, is that what god is? its comical that you say that im trying to get you to prove me that god exists, because i never said i didnt know god. my argument here is on your (and by that i mean christian) definition of what god is, and subsequently "good", "evil", blah blah blah.

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Originally Posted by redzeppelin

I have no access to the realm of God - wherever he's at I can't see Him or heaven. What I do understand is that you too can understand who he is, but only if your heart is in the right place. Like any relationship, if you don't seek God with the right attitude, he won't reveal himself to you. It's that simple. He doesn't accept demands from those who only seek to attack him, disprove him, or interrogate him. He is interested in a love relationship with his creatures - and this includes you. But he won't force himself on anybody, and will only make himself known to you when you're ready. No being on planet earth would reveal him/herself to you if you approached him/her as you attempt to approach God - "Prove you exist! Prove you love me! Prove to me that your feelings are real!"

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im sorry you feel that way. i dont feel any distance from my maker, i have a very little comprehension of what and how he is, but i know i am him (how could i be anything else?), and hes in me; the realm of god is life, and he IS all around.
"He doesn't accept demands from those who only seek to attack him, disprove him, or interrogate him." <- this is you talking, not god, man. its your voice there.

[QUOTE = redzeppelin]"Prove you exist! Prove you love me! Prove to me that your feelings are real!"[QUOTE]

you fail, man.

7 “Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened.

now you can go use the skasian argument and acuse me of saying "random disconnected things" just because you dont understand them.

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Originally Posted by weltanschauung

go read stephen hawkins or something.

so, speaking as if you were 5 years old

i beg you pardon, sir.
my opinion is worth the same as yours, which is nothing

you dont know anything at all, youre just a man. sorry to break your bubble there.

DUUUUH, but what the hell is that supposed to mean?

duhhh. i know you dont get the point, and that is why we're having this silly argument, which isnt taking us anywhere


well maybe youre just looking at this as some silly rethoric game,

i could care less about anyone's opinions

so maybe you should save your english to argue with a fellow opinionated person, so that you can fill more 150 pages of circular arguments that dont say anything, just "opinions".

blah blah blah.

you fail, man.

now you can go use the skasian argument and acuse me of saying "random disconnected things" just because you dont understand them.

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*sigh*

Why would anyone want to continue a conversation with this kind of attitude?

OK - I haven't been clear. Excuse me.

Good is recognizable in most cultures as things like love, loyalty, compassion, sacrifice, courage, family, work, play, generosity, charity, fidelity, justice and mercy.

Evil is recognizable in most cultures as murder, rape, theft, lying, betrayal, infidelity, selfishness, dishonesty, manipulation, jealousy, rage, laziness.

Those are the short lists. Few cultures discourage the first list, and few cultures value the second list.

That's about all I feel like saying right now because life is too short to spend it arguing with an angry and condescending young woman. Sorry - it's clear your intelligent - but you're not very patient, and I've got better things to do than listen to you patronize me when I'm doing the best that I can.

When you've got the time and patience to continue the conversation, let me know. Otherwise, I'm just too tired to wade through your condescension in order to pursue this discussion. You may call this a "forfeit" if you feel like it.

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Originally Posted by Redzeppelin

1. Where did I indicate that I personally have "the right attitude" or that "my heart is in the right place"? I simply have accepted that there is a God and that He is in control, not I. I know what I know (which isn't much) about God because I have voluntarily entered into relationship with Him. I'm not perfect, I still sin, but I have chosen to surrender control of my life to He who knows better than I. Those who enter into relationship with God (by very nature of how relationships work) know more about Him than those who aren't in relationship with Him. That's hard to understand? Isn't that how it works here in the REAL WORLD (to borrow your phrasing)?

2. Tell me, why is that so-called "open minded" and "free thinking" and "enlightened" people such as yourself have such a difficult time engaging in a conversation with a believer without being condescending? Is that a charateristic of being so much more versed in reality - that you're patronizing to others? If so, then I suppose I'm glad to count myself amoung the childish and brainwashed individuals you seem to think us to be.

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All these expressions come from your posts. In the real world, you cannot enter in relationship with something that we humans have created (for very good reasons maybe). This can only happen in a spiritual world that you have chosen to believe in, and you have all the right to do so.

As for condescending, you are the one who first used the words “childish” and “brainwashed”. Please check before you used it instead of answer to the substance of the post.

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Originally Posted by lupe

All these expressions come from your posts. In the real world, you cannot enter in relationship with something that we humans have created (for very good reasons maybe). This can only happen in a spiritual world that you have chosen to believe in, and you have all the right to do so.

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Your primary error is the idea that we created God. That's absurd. We can debate the real world if you want, but it won't get us anywhere. All individuals start from a fundamental presupposition as to the nature of reality and then base their idea of reality based upon that. You base is naturalism, mine is Christianity. From each of those we construct our positions. You think yours is more convincing because it's based on measurements and observations. I'm OK with that.

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Originally Posted by lupe

As for condescending, you are the one who first used the words “childish” and “brainwashed”. Please check before you used it instead of answer to the substance of the post.

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Those terms are my interpretations of the general attitude I receive. They're fair and accurate.

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Originally Posted by Redzeppelin

*sigh*

Why would anyone want to continue a conversation with this kind of attitude?

OK - I haven't been clear. Excuse me.

Good is recognizable in most cultures as things like love, loyalty, compassion, sacrifice, courage, family, work, play, generosity, charity, fidelity, justice and mercy.

Evil is recognizable in most cultures as murder, rape, theft, lying, betrayal, infidelity, selfishness, dishonesty, manipulation, jealousy, rage, laziness.

Those are the short lists. Few cultures discourage the first list, and few cultures value the second list.

That's about all I feel like saying right now because life is too short to spend it arguing with an angry and condescending young woman. Sorry - it's clear your intelligent - but you're not very patient, and I've got better things to do than listen to you patronize me when I'm doing the best that I can.

When you've got the time and patience to continue the conversation, let me know. Otherwise, I'm just too tired to wade through your condescension in order to pursue this discussion. You may call this a "forfeit" if you feel like it.

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the words of his mouth were smoother than butter, but war was in his heart; his words were softer than oil, yet they were drawn swords.

(better to be true than to be false.)

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Originally Posted by weltanschauung

the words of his mouth were smoother than butter, but war was in his heart; his words were softer than oil, yet they were drawn swords.

(better to be true than to be false.)

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I like the quotation. Not sure I get the relevance. Not sure I get the parenthetical statement either - which probably means that much of what you're saying is going over my head and it was wise for me to bail out before I made an even worse fool of myself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFtXW7veUnc

What we call devil is part of us