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You're right, MissS, she was a bride at seven, a widow at eleven and dead herself at twenty - a short, sad life.Quote:
Originally Posted by MissScarlett
I'd like to comment on the garden scene but have not time at the moment to re-read it and gather my thoughts.
The background is always helpful. I think much of the first Act depends on our recognizing Richard's faults without having them spelled out. As for Richard's early years, it is interesting to see how his lack of power during his formative years may have lead him to dwell on it too much during his later life. I'm not sure about your characterization of Gaunt, though. You say that Gaunt was a poor role model for Richard, but this doesn't quite fit with the play. It may be historically accurate, but within the play Gaunt is an exemplary statesman who would have been an excellent role model for Richard. It's Bushy and Green who are seen as the corrupting influence.Quote:
Originally Posted by kasie
I think you're right with your interpretation. The garden conversation is an extended metaphor for Richard's misrule, and the symbolism continues outside of this scene into the rest of the play. We've already seen some of it in Act II when Gaunt says: "This land of such dear souls, this dear dear land,/ Dear for her reputation through the world,/ Is now leas'd out--I die pronouncing it--/Like to a tenement or pelting farm" (57-60). The imagery continues and expands in this Act with the garden scene and the movements of Richard and Bolingbroke through the wilds of England.Quote:
Originally Posted by MissScarlett
This is really excellent. I think you pegged it all very accurately, MissS. You need to give yourself more credit. I think what you wrote is excellent and makes things very clear. I recall when I watched the scene on my DVD of the play the first time, I did note there was a lot of symbolism I had to go back to eventually and interpret, referring directly to the text. I was somewhat like you, thinking at first, do gardeners really talk like this at that time in history? It seemed a strange scene to me and totally intentional on the author's part to inject into the play at this key moment to help us better understand the whole situation with Busy and Green. The procrastinator that I am never got back to that key garden scene; however at the time, I realised there was a lot to it than first meets the eye. I like the way you have interpreted the various parts; we certainly do learn by discussion.Quote:
Originally Posted by MissScarlett
Quark, from what I have read concerning other history plays, I think Shakespeare, basing these plays on historic fact, leaves himself a wide margin for creativity and often does not follow the history to the letter. I think this is the case with the character of Gaunt. Also, Gaunt is tied to Bollingbroke, so we see him in the light of a foe and yet at this time we see Richard at his weakest moments in his reign. In the weak shadow of Richard, we see Gaunt as a strong character in contrast and also a great orator. I really was dubious as to what Gaunt was truly like before this time. I didn't get a fully-fleshed out view of this character at all, from the limited amount of text; again, it may have been obstructed by his long flowery speeches or maybe it is my own short-comings in interpreting this complex text.
Thank you very much for that background Kasie. It was a pleasure to read and it is definitely pertinent to the play.
Scarlett, thanks for getting the discussion going on scene 4. I'll have some comments after I relook at the scene. But I do wish to say something on scene 3 before we move on. It will have to wait until tomorrow though.
First let me say, thanks for this Scarlett. I'm glad you stated this and you made it very clear. I'll comment to you statements below.
I found it fairly credible. You be surprised at how common speech by the most uneducated person uses metaphors and analogies. Granted it may be unreflectively done, but still common speech uses all sorts of conceits. That's how idioms develop.Quote:
Originally Posted by MissScarlett
I fully agree. Once I started looking for them, it seems like every scene to this point has some sort of green land/garden allusion.Quote:
Throughout the entire play, Shakespeare has used the natural world (Bushy and Greene, for example) to symbolize England and Richard, and I don't think this was at all unusual for the times. During Elizabethan times, people had to contend with the forces of nature and the changing seasons so much more than we do now. Their tie to nature was greater and nature played a far bigger role in their lives.
I think when the gardener and his assistant talk about "binding up the royal apricocks" they are really talking about Richard, himself, and Bushy and Greene. Bushy and Greene have caused Richard to "Stoope with oppression of their prodigal weight."
So then, the cleaning out of Richard's henchmen is a sort of spring pruning in a garden.Quote:
The gardener continues to refer to Bushy and Greene when he tells his assistant to "Go thou and like an executioner/Cut off the too fast growing sprays,/That look too lofty in our commonwealth./All must be even in our government."
Bushy and Greene have overstepped their bounds with Richard and misled him, and they have, in fact, been executed.
Amazingly, the gardener's assistant replies in language even more metaphorical than the gardener's when he asks why he should bother when "our sea-walled garden" (England) is "full of weeds," "chok'd up," "unprun'd," "ruin'd," "disordered," and "swarming with caterpillars?"
So Bushy and Greene have gone from being "too fast growing sprays" of flowers to out and out weeds destroying both Richard and England, herself.
There are two problems though that I see with the analogy. First is that by cutting off Richard, then you are not exactly prunning, but killing the plant.Quote:
When the gardener next speaks, he speaks, I think, again of Richard as a tree, who has suffered a "disordered spring" and has now reached the "fall of leaf," an allusion, of course, to Richard's coming abdication and perhaps even to his eventual murder. The gardener seems to blame Bushy and Greene for Richard's problems - "That seemed in eating him to hold him up." The gardener also seems to allude to Bolingbroke and his execution of Bushy and Greene and the eventual destruction of Richard in the "fall of leaf" when he compares Bushy and Greene to a gardener who would not only destroy the weeds that are choking a tree, but also destroy the tree, itself.
Which brings me to my second issue, how does the prunning in the garden fit with the garden of eden motif that also runs through the play, though perhaps less tangible. Notice what the Queen says in this scene:Quote:
At this point, the queen makes her presence known and seems both surprised and alarmed, something I found surprising. I thought queens knew just about everything regarding royal politics, but maybe not. I have to admit, I don't completely understand the queen's parting words, "for telling me these news of woe,/Pray God the plants thou graft'st may never grow." Does she mean Bushy and Greene? Or is she referring to Richard's loss of the crown?
The gardener then plants "a bank of rue, sour herb of grace," where Isabel's tears have fallen, the rue, I think, symbolizing her sorrow, and again, a link to nature.
Is Shakespeare mixing metaphors? Is Bolingbroke the snake that enters the garden and causes the fall of Richard? How does Shakespeare tie these two metaphors together? Or does he? This is what has bothered me about the garden metaphor since it was brought up.Quote:
Thou, old Adam's likeness, set to dress this garden,
How dares thy harsh rude tongue sound this unpleasing news?
What Eve, what serpent, hath suggested thee
To make a second fall of cursed man?
It is a very nice scene. :)Quote:
I love metaphor, so for me, the garden scene in Richard II is one of my favorite scenes in all of Shakespeare. I may not be right in all of my interpretation, but that's what discussion is for, to learn. :)
Some of the symbolism is a little murky. It's a little hard to keep track of who's a plant and who's a weed. Here, though, I think the Queen is talking about the news of Richard's demise. She's saying that the knowledge of Richard's downfall is like that knowledge from the apple. I don't know if it the analogy here extends to what's going on with Bolingbroke, Bushy, Green, and the rest of the cast.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Quark, you make me burst out laughing at this last line...who's a plant and who's a weed...haha.... I am a bit murky myself on this one. I must watch that garden scene again tonight....and Virgil, indeed, isn't the tree cut down when Richard is stabbed? or am I missing something?Quote:
Originally Posted by Quark
That is what I thought also, but it will good to hear Miss Scarlett'scomments to Virgil's post above. I must admit I am taking a less active role in this discussion but I am reading everything.Quote:
Here, though, I think the Queen is talking about the news of Richard's demise. She's saying that the knowledge of Richard's downfall is like that knowledge from the apple. I don't know if it the analogy here extends to what's going on with Bolingbroke, Bushy, Green, and the rest of the cast.
I vaguely remember something like that. Of course, it's been so long since I read the play that I can only vaguely remember anything. Really, if we keep going with the discussion, I'm going to have to reread this thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
oh, no...I didn't mean it specifically or 'text-wise'; I have no idea if there is a tree reference in that death scene but it would be interesting if there was one. I just left a message in your profile page for help. Using 'search' I can't find the thread for Richard II - Act IV. I can't understand why it does not come up, unless it is listed differently. HELP!Quote:
Originally Posted by Quark
It's there, but no one has posted in it yet. I'm not sure we're through with Act III. Virgil wanted to say something more about the first three scenes, I think.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Virgil, to me, the symbolism gets a little murky, too, but I think the gardener and the queen were alluding to Bushy and Greene when they talked of pruning and serpents. The gardener, at least, seemed to feel Richard's predicament was due to Bushy and Greene and not to Richard, himself.
Are we done with Act III yet, or is there something left to say?
I think we should move onto Act IV!!!!!!!!!!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Quark
Well if no one posts soon we'll go ahead to the next Act, I guess.Quote:
Originally Posted by Krauq
hahah...who is the 'Evil Doppelganger?'....haha...he has your avy, Quark, in reverse! hahaa His user name is also an anagram of Quark (reverse spelling). I never miss a trick, do I? haha
Well welcome to the forum, Krauq.
Hey, all, let me know when we move onto Act IV.