Besides which, I'm wondering how long the naps are?
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Besides which, I'm wondering how long the naps are?
Wow, I just realized a real theological problem in all this! There are intimatations in Hadith that there is a Kaaba in Heaven and that the angels are constantly encircling it. Well, what happens to prayer 5 times per day during this 24 year thing. Seriously! Where is there mention of prayer or worship in Islamic Paradise? Surely this is a key issue! I must take another look at the Qu'ran.
Moses said unto them: Woe unto you! Invent not a lie against Allah, lest He extirpate you by some punishment. He who lieth faileth miserably. (Surah Ta-ha, verse 61)
There is no mention of 24 year orgasm or sex in the Qur'an nor the hadith, and those who claim such things, need to bring proof, otherwise, their claims can be dismissed as lies.
Well, firstly, your quote is laughable if it is meant to deter people from asking such questions: we live in an age of scientific enquiry not superstitious nonsense (although I do sometimes wonder!).
Secondly, it was Tariq Ali who made such a claim. Tariq comes from Lahore, and is an extremely well-educated political commentator who knows a great deal about Islam. So, whilst it may well be that the 24-yr orgasm nonsense is un-Koranic, according to Tariq Ali it is something that many Muslims believe.
If you had read my post with any degree of attention, you would have noticed that it was an enquiry into the origin of Tariq's claim. So your quote is rather confused and misdirected, I mean did you have it in mind for me, for Tariq Ali or for soemone else altogether?
There are two accepted sources of Islam, the holy Qur'an, and the hadith. Tariq ali is not a source of Islam, and if he claims something, and cannot provide proof from those two sources, than he is not credible and whatever he may say is simply his own opinion; nothing more, nothing less. Same thing with those who cite alleged Tariq Ali's comments; if they cannot bring proof from the Qur'an and the hadith, then their claims have no weight in a real theological discussion, but serve as a way to degrade and ridicule others and their beliefs. Of course, some people are content with that kind of "discussion" and believe it to be enough to form their opinions, but I am sure most of us expect more than "he said, she said", statements before accepting something as a true or false claim.
Also, the claim that you made, (although you have no proof of that, and I can claim the opposite just as well, with more credibility), that many muslims believe that statment of the 24 year long orgasm, is not a way to prove that something is truly God's word or not. If billions of people believed that some verse is in the Qur'an, and it is not there, would they be right or wrong? The rule of majority does not apply where we have facts to refute their opinion; and it certainly is not enough in the situations where we have God's word against theirs.
"If you had read my post with any degree of attention, you would have noticed that it was an enquiry into the origin of Tariq's claim. So your quote is rather confused and misdirected, I mean did you have it in mind for me, for Tariq Ali or for soemone else altogether?"
Well, I am rather confused about your angry comment from before. If you were looking for the truth in the Tariq Ali's comment, why did it offend you when I cited the Qur'anic verse? The verse said that people shouldn't lie about Allah's s.v.t word. That was my opinion about his comment and a way to tell you that his comments are not true. I cannot bring more proof than that, but I have elaborated my opinion further in this post. However, if someone claims that something is true or that something exists, the burden of proof is on him. I cannot prove that something doesn't exist, nor that something is not written in the Qur'an, unless you want me to copy paste the whole Qur'an here, so that we can look for what is not there? ;)
Very nice Amra. Welcome to the sight. There is always room for intelligent input...
But even if someone pasted parts of religious texts here, there would still be suspicion as to whether the accuracy required was present in any post.
Interesting point about the availability of the Qur'an. Is it available in it's entirety on this sight? Are there any religious texts available on this sight? It would make for accurate discussion if it were so......
Thanks baddad...:)
Here is a link to the translation of the Qur'an, if you would like to look up some things. There is also an index so that it is easy to search for topics of interest rather than read it all...although I do recommend reading all of it. ;)
http://www.hti.umich.edu/k/koran/
And here is the link to the site of the interpretation of the holy Qur'an, by one of the most respected scholars. So, if any of the verses are unclear, this is the place to refer to... ;)
http://www.tafsir.com/Default.asp
Amra,
You have an intriguing use of the word proof. Tell me, how do you prove that a text is the word of Allah? Do you have some special formula, or some kind of scientific experimental method or something?
Amra,
The verse you quote I would find offensive no matter who you applied it to. Quite honestly, only a fool would believe: <Invent not a lie against Allah, lest He extirpate you by some punishment.> Let me assure you that this sort of thing just doesn't happen. Furthermore, if Allah doesn't extirpate me by the end of the week say, I guess that will confirm that I have not invented a lie against Allah. I'll let you know how I get on. Tell you what, I'll give you a daily update on my health on this thread if you like!
A psychiatrist one said to a guru: "Religion is merely repressed sexuality."
The guru retorted: "Sexuality is merely repressed religion."
There is no need to shoot the messenger! ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by atiguhya padma
No you are obviously right. Unless the messenger concurs with the message that is!:)
atiguhya padma, There is no need to change the subject now. The point was that someone claimed a verse or the idea of 24 year orgasm was in the Qur'an, and I answered that the claim is not correct, and that there is no mention of that in the holy Qur'an. Period.
"Amra,
You have an intriguing use of the word proof. Tell me, how do you prove that a text is the word of Allah? Do you have some special formula, or some kind of scientific experimental method or something"
Lol. You are missing the point. It is very easy to prove if something is IN the Qur'an or not. It's not abstract science, but merely a matter of reading. ;) If it is in the Qur'an, then Tariq ali said the truth, if it is not, he lied. It is beside the point whether he or anyone believes the Qur'an to be the word of Allah s.v.t. However, if TAriq Ali says that muslims believe something, then the only way he could have assumed that is if he read such a thing in the Qur'an or the hadith; otherwise he lied. I doubt it that he read a novel from Danielle Steel about the 24 year orgasm and based on that came to the conclusion that muslims believe such things.
"Let me assure you that this sort of thing just doesn't happen. Furthermore, if Allah doesn't extirpate me by the end of the week say, I guess that will confirm that I have not invented a lie against Allah. I'll let you know how I get on. Tell you what, I'll give you a daily update on my health on this thread if you like!"
I quoted the verse as the answer to your inquiry. You wanted to know if there was a basis of such claim in the Qur'an, I answered there is not. If Tariq Ali consideres himself a muslim, he will most certainly be watchful of claiming wrong things about Allah s.v.t's Book, and my statement was a reminder to him or any muslim, of the danger of doing such things. No muslim will think it offensive if you remind him to beware of committing sins or claiming something that is not in the Qur'an and ascribing it to Allah s.v.t. Also, it is rather childish to set ultimatums to Allah s.v.t and base your belief or non-belief :) on whether or not a certain thing comes true within a week. If you feel the need to ridicule certain things, than there is nothing that can stop you from doing that, but I strongly believe in everything that is in the Qur'an, and feel it is unnecessary from your side to degrade someone else's belief just because you cannot accept it as the truth. It is a matter of respect toward other human beings more than anything else, that calls for certain etiquette when talking to others without ridiculing them or their ideas. I am not trying to impose any of my beliefs on you or anyone else, but if you ask a question about a religion and persumably want it answered, then there is no need to get offended if someone answers you from the source of what that religion is based on. By the way, if the scientists don't provide the proof of the specie we supposedly evolved from within a week, I will abandon my belief in evolution altogether. :D
Various major religions have one or more verses in their scriptures which hint that the gods of other religions are actually devils or demons disguised as God. It is difficult for anyone to disprove an assertion that the god which they worship is actually a demon.
St. Paul, in his epistles, actually has a verse or two to suggest that satan, as an angel of light, will assume the appearance of Christ for those "false" misguided sectarian Christians.
For example:
II Corinthians 11:13-15 says,
“For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness . . .”
And in the Qur'an we read:
"And when they meet those who believe, they say: "We believe," but when they are alone with their Shayâtin (devils - polytheists, hypocrites, etc.), they say: "Truly, we are with you; verily, we were but mocking." Al-Baqarah 2:14
And in the Old Testament of the Jews, we find:
http://www.ucc.ie/milmart/Victor.html
The following is based on a translation of
"For all the gods of the nations are idols: but the Lord made the heavens". Psalm 96:5
The word translated as idols may also be translated as demons/devils.
(example of an interpretation of Psalm 96:5)
Then the emperor Maximianus was filled with anger and ordered that clubs be brought, and that Victor be stretched out in his sight and beaten. He commanded that the torturers should go beyond the third mark of the rack, and should shout at him, "Sacrifice to the Gods whom the emperor and everyone wor- ship." When Victor had been beaten the emperor ordered that he be set up straight, and said to him, "Victor, hear my advice, yield to and serve those gods: because no-one can better serve them than you, especially since you are distinguished by your grey hairs". Saint Victor replied, "Blessed David, king and prophet, teaches, "All the gods of the nations are demons, but our God made the heavens: if, therefore, they are called demons from the start, how will I worship them ?" Then the emperor Maximianus said to him, "Behold I give to you the rank of magister militum, much gold and silver, retinues and property, only sacrifice to the gods whom we worship". Victor replied, "I have already said, and will say it again: I will not sacrifice to the demons but I offer myself as a sacrifice of praise to God: because it is written "everyone who sacrifices to demons and not to God will be destroyed."
One may even find this notion in the Hindu Gita, but with an unusual twist:
God in the form of Krishna says, essentially, that all worship everywhere, comes to him, even though the worshippers be ignorant of His identity. Elsewhere, Krishna says that those who worship demons go to the demons, those who worship ancestors go to the ancestors, those who worship the demi-gods go to the demigods (i.e. everyone finds what they seek).
Apparently, Pres. Bush was asked publically if he thought that all worship the same God. Everyone held their breath, hoping that the answer would be a politically correct "yes" (which indeed it was.) But this is ignoring one of the final Surahs of the Qur'an, "The Surah to the Kafir (Unbeliever)": Say therefore to the unbelievers, "The god which you worship is NOT the God which we worship; and the God which we worship is NOT the god which you worship. So therefore, unto you your god and unto us our God."
Huston Smith, professor of comparative religion from M.I.T., cites Surah 5, verse 48 as one of the seemingly most ecumenical/interfaith verses: (paraphrasing from memory) "For my own purposes I have created you as different religions, so if you must compete with one another, compete in doing good works, and when you return to Me, I shall explain to you the reasons for the religious differences." But the next verse says "Therefore, do not be friends with Christians and Jews. They have each other to be friends with. He who is friends with them is one of them, and Allah does not help evil doers."