The Winter's Tale - Act I

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Originally Posted by Quark

There are a few parts of the conversation that might set him off. First, Polixenes suggests that when women enter his and Leontes's lives they lost their innocence. That might make Leontes suspicious. Also, Hermione's tone is very animated when talking with Polixenes, but somewhat less spirited with Leontes. She also disagrees with him, and she even puts her love of both men on even ground. Hermione says,

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That was one of the parts, I was thinking of but, mostly the way Hermione was so 'animated', when talking to Polixenes - she seemed to be thoroughly enjoying herself; for that matter so did he; and remember, Polixenes has a queen in his own land. Doesn't it seem odd he would leave her for so long? I think the time reference someone did mentioned, amounted to how much actual time, that he had been in this kingdom visiting? There were other passages and I will find them later and post them to show how Leontes builds and builds his suspicions. I wish I had the time now, but I don't; you know how that goes, Quark. ;)

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Leontes obviously feels left out of the conversation because he doesn't even follow it. He asks his wife "Is he won yet?" (83). Finally, the handclasp is the last straw. Earlier, Leontes had mentioned that he and his wife clasped hands when they were married, and now he sees his wife clasping hands with Polixenes.

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True enough; I have to review that part. He did seem to step asside on his own accord. Interesting, Quark, that you point out the handclasp. Yes, that would relate to both of the times and somehow equate in Leonte's jealous mind (perhaps subconsiously) that this is rather significant that his wife has so easily convinced his friend to stay when even he could not imploy him to do so. The handclasps links the two events.

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Of course, it should be mentioned that this is all rather flimsy evidence of infidelity.

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Of course, but had he not acted rationally instead of rashly, there would be no basis for this play. This beginning reminds me of the Thomas Hardy novel "The Mayor of Casterbridge" in which the main character, Michael Henchard, in a irrational fit of drunkedness, auctions off his wife and baby at a fair. The rest of his life is trying to pay atonement for the stupid and impulsive act he did to begin with. I somehow see the same kind of quick rashness being portrayed in the first scene in this play as in the novel. From one very poor decision all fate then follows. In this case, the Oracle is summoned to decide where the truth lies.

You guys are flying ahead of me. :bawling: I'll have to hurry up.

Virgil and Antiquarian, take heart - I feel just as behind actually; I still need to re-listen to the audiofile; should be doing that now. We are only discussing why Leontes seems so rash in his assumptions. We haven't gotten very far into the text, I don't think; at least I hope not.

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Originally Posted by Janine

Virgil and Antiquarian, take heart - I feel just as behind actually; I still need to re-listen to the audiofile; should be doing that now. We are only discussing why Leontes seems so rash in his assumptions. We haven't gotten very far into the text, I don't think; at least I hope not.

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I'm behind, too. I have to re-read Act I to follow this dicussion in detail. also read the whole play to know what others talking about and don't get confused.

Those who interested in this play, I started a thread on the perfoming aspect of Shakespeare's plays which will help. This is the link, I'll be glad if you share your ideas and especially photos.

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Originally Posted by sofia82

I'm behind, too. I have to re-read Act I to follow this dicussion in detail. also read the whole play to know what others talking about and don't get confused.

Those who interested in this play, I started a thread on the perfoming aspect of Shakespeare's plays which will help. This is the link, I'll be glad if you share your ideas and especially photos.

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Hi Sophia, must be day there for you; it is night and time for me to depart for sleepland.:lol: I posted one thing in your thread, so far. I hope you like it. I have been collecting some photos part of today, but getting those together with some statistics is not easy; hope to post some more tomorrow. Glad you linked the new thread with this thread. It should be great fun, and quite educational. I was just watching a You tube of a ballet dancer I saw tonight on a DVD of "Romeo and Juliet". I will post something on her and her newer production tomorrow. She was extraordinary; so graceful and lovely.

I feel behind in the reading, as well; don't worry - we will all catch up soon. This discussion goes on the whole summer, right?

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Originally Posted by Janine

Virgil and Antiquarian, take heart - I feel just as behind actually; I still need to re-listen to the audiofile; should be doing that now. We are only discussing why Leontes seems so rash in his assumptions. We haven't gotten very far into the text, I don't think; at least I hope not.

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Why Leontes is rash is the key to the play. It needs full discussion. I have thoughts on it, but not ready to express them yet. I completed my full read last night and now I just need to read Act I again, while taking notes. I may post my thoughts on this tonight.

notes?! :eek2: does this mean Ill be spending all summer semi studying?

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Originally Posted by Nightshade

notes?! :eek2: does this mean Ill be spending all summer semi studying?

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Yes, it seems so. I have to read Act I again to find this rashness in Leon line by line and other subjects, too. First of all, I want to finish the whole play.

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Originally Posted by Janine

Doesn't it seem odd he would leave her for so long? I think the time reference someone did mentioned, amounted to how much actual time, that he had been in this kingdom visiting?

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I'm not sure exactly how long Polixenes has been visiting, but it seems like the first scene with the lords justifies his visit. I didn't see anything wrong with the visit in itself.

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Originally Posted by Janine

The handclasps links the two events.

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Wait, which two events get linked?

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Originally Posted by Janine

Of course, but had he not acted rationally instead of rashly, there would be no basis for this play. This beginning reminds me of the Thomas Hardy novel "The Mayor of Casterbridge"

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That's a good parallel. In both cases, rashness is the character's inherent flaw. Circumstances conspire to give them the opportunity to act on their shortcoming, but they don't create the inherent flaw that the characters have. The only difference between between the two protagonists is that Henchard's rashness is more of a permanent trait and Leontes's is more like temporary madness.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

Why Leontes is rash is the key to the play.

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Well, yes and no. Discovering what makes him susceptible to jealousy seems important, but pinpointing the exact moment when he becomes jealous or what actions make him jealous are less important. When isn't important because Leontes becomes noticeably envious 150 lines into the play. It hardly seems worth it to pour over the text to pick which individual line is the turning point. I suppose one could argue over whether it starts before or after the beginning play, but there isn't anything to make us conclude one way or the other. Similarly, I don't see the importance of the actions that prompt Leontes jealous rage. I think we can all agree that there's little provocation. As I pointed out earlier, Leontes even agrees that there's no foundation for his jealousy. I'll requote this so that no one has to flip to the previous page:

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Affection! thy intention stabs the centre.
Thou dost make possible things not so held,
Communicat'st with dreams (how can this be?),
With what's unreal thou co-active art,
And fellow'st nothing. (I, ii, 138-142)

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Leontes, himself, is to blame. This contrasts with Shakespeare's other jealous protagonist Othello, who is forced into jealousy by circumstances. In that play, the reader is curious to know what actions caused his downfall--after all there is a plot to this effect. The jealousy in The Winters Tale, however, lacks any rational basis. If we're to look for a cause, then, we have to inspect Leontes character more than the external actions which are irrelevant to Leontes.

The most salient characteristic of Leontes is his weakness, and this makes him very susceptible to jealousy. I already talked a little about his overly passive method of argument, but other details indicate the weakness of his character. He mentions his his heart having tremors, and the speech I quoted above shows his inability to control his own mind. This would make him susceptible to any slight impression that comes his way. Weakness, then, is probably his largest shortcoming, but there are possibly others. One could argue that his paranoid and cynical outlook is a result of his jealousy, but it might also be a preexisting condition of Leontes's mind.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

I completed my full read last night and now I just need to read Act I again, while taking notes. I may post my thoughts on this tonight.

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Oh, this better be good Virgil. You keep building the anticipation.

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Originally Posted by Quark

I suppose it's because Hermione argues more convincingly than her husband. Leontes merely asks him stay, but doesn't addresses any of the reasons Polixenes has for leaving. Hermione, however, actively refutes Polixenes main excuse for leaving. The Bohemian king fears that enemies will overwhelm his state while he's away, but Hermione soothes that fear with news she's heard.

Another cause for Hermione's success is that she's a much stronger character--as are most of the women in this play--than her husband. She treats this conversation like a battle and chides her husband for being too passive: "You, sir, charge him too coldly." She then threatens him (albeit playfully) with imprisonment if he tries to leave. Hermione convinces because she's both more tactical and stronger than her husband in this situation.

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Perhaps Leontes is jealous as well of Hermione's diplomatic flair and other talents?

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Originally Posted by bouquin

Perhaps Leontes is jealous as well of Hermione's diplomatic flair and other talents?

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i think so. It seems that Leon is jealous of Hermione herself because of her talents more than her relationship with Pil.

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Originally Posted by Quark

Well, yes and no. Discovering what makes him susceptible to jealousy seems important, but pinpointing the exact moment when he becomes jealous or what actions make him jealous are less important. When isn't important because Leontes becomes noticeably envious 150 lines into the play. It hardly seems worth it to pour over the text to pick which individual line is the turning point. I suppose one could argue over whether it starts before or after the beginning play, but there isn't anything to make us conclude one way or the other. Similarly, I don't see the importance of the actions that prompt Leontes jealous rage. I think we can all agree that there's little provocation. As I pointed out earlier, Leontes even agrees that there's no foundation for his jealousy. I'll requote this so that no one has to flip to the previous page:

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I did say "why" not "when." Don't you know your interrogative pronouns? ;)

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Oh, this better be good Virgil. You keep building the anticipation.

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I hope it will be good. Tonight I promise. I had something yesterday happen which threw me out of kilter all day.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

I did say "why" not "when." Don't you know your interrogative pronouns? ;)

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I'm sure I'm quite horrible with pronouns (honestly, who isn't?), but I think the problem wasn't with pronouns. It was actually with paragraphs. I crudely sutured two separate ideas together in one clump of text rather than give them their own paragraphs. Specifically, I tried to answer both "when" and "why," and it got confusing. I answered the "when" first, but later I tackled "why" as well. Here's the part where I talk about why Leontes is jealous, and how important it is to the play:

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what actions make him jealous are less important

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Similarly, I don't see the importance of the actions that prompt Leontes jealous rage. I think we can all agree that there's little provocation. As I pointed out earlier, Leontes even agrees that there's no foundation for his jealousy. I'll requote this so that no one has to flip to the previous page:

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I go on to say, though, that we should look for Leontes motives within his own character. Since the provocation is so minute, it really can't be the source of his jealousy. Really, it has to come from Leontes himself. Therefore, rather than pour over the first 150 lines trying to find what makes Leontes jealous, we should ask ourselves what part of Leontes is prone to jealousy.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

I hope it will be good. Tonight I promise. I had something yesterday happen which threw me out of kilter all day.

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That's good. Are you going to write something on Leontes?

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Originally Posted by bouquin

Perhaps Leontes is jealous as well of Hermione's diplomatic flair and other talents?

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Originally Posted by sofia82

i think so. It seems that Leon is jealous of Hermione herself because of her talents more than her relationship with Pil.

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That may be a stretch. The only line that directly refers to that is when Leontes points out the obvious and says that he would not have been able to make him stay. Unless you perceive bitterness in his tone, I don't see any jealousy there. At least, there isn't anything in the words themselves that would make me suspicious. Can you think of any other lines that might make Leontes seem jealous of Hermione's skilled diplomacy?