Heaven or hell?

Well it's actually more of a philosophical question than a scientific one. If it's accepted that the universe is "all that exists", all that is of time and space, then that which is not of the universe would be nothing. See? There's either something or nothing.

Strangely enough it was me who invoked the philosophical conundrum of perfection earlier in the thread. The Christian idea of course is that free will allows us to act in ways that are not of God. Until man, the universe was perfect. It was good. But once good comes into existence, with it comes evil, at least in concept. Just as dark exists as absence of light and cold exists as absence of heat. It was man, acting in a way not of God (symbolized naturally by the fall in Eden) that made evil manifest in time and space, bringing it from concept to reality. It is this that separates us from God, according to this view. One I kind of like. God remains perfect. The imperfection of the universe is man-made.

And I would describe myself as a panentheist as well. So, yes, if the question is does something exist outside of the universe that is not physical or in some way directly related to time and space, that's a different question than what I answered, and I see now where it came from and why you asked it.

"Hmmm. I'll have to think some more. I haven't been involved in a philosophical conversation in a long, long time."

Well, the big questions aren't going anywhere. That's the nice thing about philosophy. You can always come back to it and it's always just where you left it. ;)

:blush: :blush:

I had to look up your term, panetheist :blush: . As this is accociated with God as Logos , it isn't too hard for me to accept. More people should actually study about God, then they might find reason to accept that God exists!

God can not be contained within a logical frame.

I don't believe in an afterlife, but if heaven and hell did exist and I had the choice, I would choose hell. Then I could meet most of my favorite authors, philosophers, musicians, etc. :thumbs_up

really?? !

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Originally Posted by Chester

Well it's actually more of a philosophical question than a scientific one. If it's accepted that the universe is "all that exists", all that is of time and space, then that which is not of the universe would be nothing. See? There's either something or nothing.

Strangely enough it was me who invoked the philosophical conundrum of perfection earlier in the thread. The Christian idea of course is that free will allows us to act in ways that are not of God. Until man, the universe was perfect. It was good. But once good comes into existence, with it comes evil, at least in concept. Just as dark exists as absence of light and cold exists as absence of heat. It was man, acting in a way not of God (symbolized naturally by the fall in Eden) that made evil manifest in time and space, bringing it from concept to reality. It is this that separates us from God, according to this view. One I kind of like. God remains perfect. The imperfection of the universe is man-made.

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I am always skeptical of these issues, god, heaven and of the fact that God created this universe. That God created this universe and he created man so that he would be prayed and that he loves to be prayed, worshiped is something I can comfort myself with at all.

God or something there is absolutely a subject that is not imaginable in point of fact and not arguable at all.

Praying and not praying does not make a difference at all. God is now within a periphery of attributes.

That`s Huge !!
well, my very own poor opinion is, the life we are currently living is The Hell itself.Nothing is going right. Children,woman,old men,men HUMANS are dying. Hunger is taking over millions of humans. "The Hell" and "The Suffering" my grandma used to tell me about Is right infront of me, and the image in my head is completed.
And heaven? well ... Maybe .. and its my poor guess .. it might be The Gift.
I can`t really imagine a (( Heller )) hell than our Lives.
Am i off the issue ??
hehehe i`m sorry !!

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Originally Posted by blazeofglory

God can not be contained within a logical frame.

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In other words God is an illogical concept, or perhaps a superlogical concept but that's the same thing.
Pfft, who needs logic anyway, its only of any use for boring things.

"Well, what's beyond the universe is nothing. Total nothingness is a tough concept to get one's mind around. I don't mean empty space. I mean a state without time and without space. Complete nothingness."

until you give it a name and some attributes, just because its not our universe (space, time, matter, energy) does not mean its nothing - we simply just don't know anything about it.

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Originally Posted by DapperDrake

In other words God is an illogical concept, or perhaps a superlogical concept but that's the same thing.
Pfft, who needs logic anyway, its only of any use for boring things.

"Well, what's beyond the universe is nothing. Total nothingness is a tough concept to get one's mind around. I don't mean empty space. I mean a state without time and without space. Complete nothingness."

until you give it a name and some attributes, just because its not our universe (space, time, matter, energy) does not mean its nothing - we simply just don't know anything about it.

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And this seems reasonable, until someone calls it an "afterlife", "heaven", "hell", "The Promised Land", "Nivarna", or something like and then people point to that as base illogical and totally unreasonable. Hummm. Well, we can't have it both ways, either it is nothing or it is to be assumed that there is something, call it what you will. Free will. Choice. :):)

God Bless

Pen

Heaven and Hell in Christian tradition have involved the person receiving in the afterlife the reality of what he or she has chosen (I'll comment on the ability to choose efficaciously a little further down).

In this view a person is not so much punished for sins externally (the fire and brimstone bit) but rather experiences the sin and the effects of sin on the soul without filters. A good illustration of this can be found in Dante's Inferno, and the corrupting power of sin on the soul is also poignantly shown in the description of slaveholders in Frederick Douglass' Narrative.

The reason that the result is eternal is based on the belief that at death the person no longer has the ability to make a new choice. Hence the emphasis on the need for a spirit of repentance before death. Dante's Purgatorio is a wonderfully readable presentation of this idea, especially in the first several cantos dealing with ante-Purgatory. While not Church doctrine, Dante was clearly aware of Church teaching (see, for example, his understanding of Thomism in Canto IV of the Purgatorio).

Heaven is the attainment of the experience of the activity of the Supreme Good (God) by those who have loved the Supreme Good. For Christians it is necessary to have known and believed the Gospel to be able to have this love.

Given these ideas it is true that those who have not heard the Gospel can not go to Heaven. This does not mean that such souls are doomed to torment. Far from it. A good non-Christian attains a state of happiness. However, this state falls short of Heaven as defined above.

Now here is the difficult part. The Western tradition, based on Augustine, teaches that in order to truly desire God one has to be given the grace to do so by God. Without going through all the arguments the essential idea (from Paul's letter to the Romans) is that human nature is incapable of earning salvation, and that even the act of true faith must be initiated by God.

The question of whether God offers this grace to everyone is at the heart of the doctrine of predestination, which in its most common form is based on Augustine's interpretation of Paul (and later developed by Calvin, among others).

People go to churches daily in order to pray to God to forgive their sins and coveting themselves a auspicious future.Humanity do not know genuinely whether there is hell or heaven,but since it is believed,then humanity shall abide by God's rules,to live harmoniously,etc.

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Originally Posted by EricP

I don't believe in an afterlife, but if heaven and hell did exist and I had the choice, I would choose hell. Then I could meet most of my favorite authors, philosophers, musicians, etc. :thumbs_up

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Yes I agree

In the words of Nietzsche "In Heaven, all the interesting people are missing."

Of course I do not actually believe in heaven or hell, but hypothetically speaking. I do not perceive Heaven as where the good people go and Hell where the bad people go.

The way I see it is:

Heaven = Christians
Hell= Non-Christians.

My preception of Heaven and Hell is that it does not matter the deeds you do or how you live your life, only the God you worship and how you pray.